A debate about Israel = posts pulled from a different thread

Serjo · Apr 6, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
My God doesn’t sleep. And neither does the God of Israel. It’s too bad you don’t know the gospel. The gospel began with Abraham, a Hebrew, whom God promised to give him the land that he actually walked. Abraham will inherit that land through Christ( a Jew) who is the testator of that inheritance. God will keep His promise of inheritance.

Greetings!
I have read both the "תנ"ך" and the "New Testament" in their original languages (I'm an eastern orthodox Christian and an ethnic Jew who is fluent in the semitic languages and cultures),

Your take seems quite strange to me! Could you please elaborate on it? (also- what denomination?)

I mean- if we start from the "תנ"ך"- God takes a prophet in the Hebrew people, promises the land of Israel for their fealty, that is the "Old testament" or "הברית הישנה" or "ברית מילה" or "circumcision"- which you as a Christian did not perform as you are not bound by the old but by the new, but anyway- the Hebrews enter the Judaistic covenant, break it once, punished, break it again, punished again, break it again, etc, etc, break it the last time, temple destroyed, Jewish people scattered, cannot return to Israel. Old testament broken new testament made, whose whole point is a new covenant with God which the Hebrew people no longer hold as they are no longer "Jewish" (modern Jewish people literally have nothing to do with biblical Judaism, modern Judaism follows "Kabala", "Hazal" and invented all kinds of satanic, marxist, Jezebelian horrors beyond human comprehension) - being part of the Judaic covenant with God, you could say that "Christians" are the new "Jews" but that's just semantics. Point is- if Jews are still "God's chosen" and are "promised Israel" that cancels out entirely the new testament, the new covenant, baptism and even Christ himself...

Reasonably Sane · Apr 6, 2024

My take on what's going on over in Gaza: Time after time Israel has tried to do a "land for peace" deal, and it's been thrown back in their face every time. They're done playing that game. I would like to see Gaza become part of Israel, with the elimination of Hamas. If the Arabs in Gaza no longer want to be a part of Israel, they can move back to Jordan, the larger part of the location called Palestine.

To many people think there are Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians. That is not the case. There are Arabs and there are Israelis that live in a geographic location that some call "palestine". And Israel and Jordan used to be part of it. In fact, there no longer is a Palestine. There is Jordan, Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Calling someone a palestinian is like calling someone a South American.

Slibhin · Apr 10, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
And yet, the children who inherited the promise of occupying the land, did indeed come and take possession of it. That's the Biblical view, that's the Jewish view, that's the Christian view.

The idea that Abraham will, someday in the future, return and take a personal and full possession of the whole land simply isn't in the Bible, and that is not a view which the two religions which have inherited the Abrahamic tradition via the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh/Old Testament). Now, the latter does not seem to concern you, but it should. For the reasons I expressed already in prior posts.

The land was promised to Abraham's decedents, which means anyone who is legally a Jew. However G-d did not give modern Israel to Jews, it was created via secular human political action. Israel proper will not be restored until the Messiah comes and any attempts to circumvent his will is going to lead to trouble, such as we see now. I do however appreciate you defending the human rights of the Palestinians, something I see very little of from the evangelical Christian communities.

Pommer · Apr 10, 2024

Slibhin said:
The land was promised to Abraham's decedents, which means anyone who is legally a Jew. However G-d did not give modern Israel to Jews, it was created via secular human political action. Israel proper will not be restored until the Messiah comes and any attempts to circumvent his will is going to lead to trouble, such as we see now. I do however appreciate you defending the human rights of the Palestinians, something I see very little of from the evangelical Christian communities.

It would be optimistic to assume that the Almighty would respond to a subpoena issued by any court from any land.

truthpls · Apr 11, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Then here is a question that should be simple to answer: According to the Bible, to whom are the promises made to Abraham? And what is the point of these promises?

-CryptoLutheran

The point of the promises is Jesus! Once they accept Him, He will fulfill all the promises.

truthpls · Apr 11, 2024

Slibhin said:
The land was promised to Abraham's decedents, which means anyone who is legally a Jew.

No, it means those of faith like Abraham. Abraham pointed to the Lamb of God if you recall. Only Jews that believe in God are children of Abraham, the rest ore of another father as Jesus stated plainly.

ViaCrucis · Apr 11, 2024

truthpls said:
The point of the promises is Jesus! Once they accept Him, He will fulfill all the promises.

You're right, the point of the promise is Jesus.

What did Jesus do? And for whom?

What does a plot of land in the Middle East to do with your or my salvation that hasn't already been finished?

-CryptoLutheran

truthpls · Apr 11, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
You're right, the point of the promise is Jesus.

What did Jesus do? And for whom?

What does a plot of land in the Middle East to do with your or my salvation that hasn't already been finished?

-CryptoLutheran

For Christians, not so much. For Jewish Christians when they all get saved in the end, quite a lot! Even for us, it is important to know that all promises will be kept. We are already saved and will already be in heaven by the time Israel all gets saved, and Jesus returns with us to earth to rule. So keeping promises to Israel after they also get saved has nothing to do with our salvation.

rambot · Apr 11, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
ADVISOR HAT
This thread contains posts pulled from this thread:

Democrat Schumer promotes election interference in an American Ally

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/schumer-calls-for-end-of-netanyahu-led-government-in-israel/ar-BB1jT9fl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=9448e75d1ef843388dd0f79fb035de49&ei=209 WASHINGTON—In a sign of growing U.S. pressure on Israel over the war in Gaza, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said...

www.christianforums.com

They were off topic to that thread.

First post:

Does not Israel have a right to the land God has given them?

If you have a right to live in YOUR house without it being taken away from you (forget ALL of your country just your house), don't Gazan's have a right to live in their home without the same?

One God and Father of All said:
When they were permitted by God to return to their own land (after the holocaust) they have been hated and threatened by those who basically want to annihilated them or else worship the god of Islam.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it was actually the UN and a few western nations that permitted that, God did not. Sometimes people confuse the will of Western governments with the will of God.

One God and Father of All said:
Israel simply wants the land God has given them.

God Gave to them (that's past tense). There are PLENTY of anti-Zionist Jews; this isn't just some Gentile giving them stick.

One God and Father of All said:
If you understand the Scripture, you’ll see that eventually Israel will have her land. It just a matter of when. It’s a promise from the God who keeps His promises.

No particular reason to think that prophesy is referring to this time though.

Slibhin · Apr 12, 2024

truthpls said:
No, it means those of faith like Abraham. Abraham pointed to the Lamb of God if you recall. Only Jews that believe in God are children of Abraham, the rest ore of another father as Jesus stated plainly.

I don't care what Jesus said because I'm not a Christian and I do not accept any teaching that contradicts the Torah. Nowhere in Genesis is there a lamb of G-d or is it even inferred. HaShem said the land was for Abraham and his descendants, therefore any other reading other then the plain meaning is a perversion of the text.

The IbanezerScrooge · Apr 12, 2024

Everything will come together once the Elves come out of the East. Then the Dark Lord Sauron will be forced to flee Middle-Earth and await Morgoth's return.

Slibhin · Apr 12, 2024

The IbanezerScrooge said:
Everything will come together once the Elves come out of the East. Then the Dark Lord Sauron will be forced to flee Middle-Earth and await Morgoth's return.

Your mockery has shown me the errors of my ways. I will now change my entire worldview.

The IbanezerScrooge · Apr 12, 2024

Slibhin said:
Your mockery has shown me the errors of my ways. I will now change my entire worldview.

Excellent! Glad I could help!

But to bring it back to the OP, the real mockery is that you guys are in here bickering about whose interpretation of a bronze age writing is correct and there are people being slaughtered over it in Israel and Gaza, and the ME in general. It's insanity.

truthpls · Apr 12, 2024

Slibhin said:
I don't care what Jesus said because I'm not a Christian and I do not accept any teaching that contradicts the Torah.

And I don't care what you say so we are even.

Slibhin said:
Nowhere in Genesis is there a lamb of G-d or is it even inferred.

I disagree. Abraham sacrificed. etc

Slibhin said:
HaShem said the land was for Abraham and his descendants, therefore any other reading other then the plain meaning is a perversion of the text.

No, He booted them out at times. They were told to obey and believe. The ones who will inherit the land are those who believe in the end, not those who disbelieve and sneak in early like thieves.

ViaCrucis · Apr 12, 2024

truthpls said:
For Christians, not so much. For Jewish Christians when they all get saved in the end, quite a lot! Even for us, it is important to know that all promises will be kept. We are already saved and will already be in heaven by the time Israel all gets saved, and Jesus returns with us to earth to rule. So keeping promises to Israel after they also get saved has nothing to do with our salvation.

My Bible doesn't make a distinction between Jewish Christians and non-Jewish Christians. And I suspect you have the same Bible as I do--so where are you getting this?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Apr 12, 2024

Slibhin said:
The land was promised to Abraham's decedents, which means anyone who is legally a Jew. However G-d did not give modern Israel to Jews, it was created via secular human political action. Israel proper will not be restored until the Messiah comes and any attempts to circumvent his will is going to lead to trouble, such as we see now. I do however appreciate you defending the human rights of the Palestinians, something I see very little of from the evangelical Christian communities.

American Evangelicalism, as a religious tradition, has been saturated by a set of religious beliefs and motifs that emerged in the 19th and 20th centuries. As Evangelicalism changed to conform to a particular set of ideas in the mid-to-late 20th century, and at the same time became aligned with an emerging reactionary form of American politics in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement, there has been a merging of religion and politics that creates a very specific view of the modern State of Israel. In the aftermath of 9/11 anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiments became more pronounced in Evangelical circles. Which means that the struggles and issues between Israelis and Palestinians have come to be viewed as exemplifying a spiritual battle between good (Israel) and evil (Palestinians). And since eschatological and apocalyptic beliefs have been attached to this, this is viewed not only as good vs evil being played out on earth, but as a sign of "the end times".

Jews and Muslims are, effectively, caricatures of real people and not real people, and are viewed through a particular religious perspective. For many Israel is destined by God to achieve glory over and against the evil represented by the Palestinians; of course this is only short term; because long term there is a belief that the modern State of Israel--and Jewish people more generally--will (after Christians are poofed away from earth into heaven) become the target of a globalist universal government headed by the literal Antichrist, and this will in turn drive the Jewish people into becoming Christians--now they don't say it that way, they will say that the Jewish people will en masse come to believe in Jesus but that they will be Jews and not Christians because a distinction is made between Christians/the Church and Jews/Israel that gets really complicated in this theological system (it's called Dispensationalism, by the way).

Jews are just pawns on the chess board in this system, intended to be lambs led to the slaughter.
Muslims, on the other hand, are also pawns--but pawns of the devil in this case.

Now, it's actually a pretty small minority of Christians--globally--that hold to any of these views. But it happens to be a very loud and very powerful minority, especially in the United States. Which gives the impression to many outside of Christianity that it is more common than it actually is.

-CryptoLutheran

Slibhin · Apr 12, 2024

The IbanezerScrooge said:
Excellent! Glad I could help!

But to bring it back to the OP, the real mockery is that you guys are in here bickering about whose interpretation of a bronze age writing is correct and there are people being slaughtered over it in Israel and Gaza, and the ME in general. It's insanity.

You are on a religious forum and people don't need your mockery or snark. You are not smarter then everyone else here.

Slibhin · Apr 12, 2024

truthpls said:
And I don't care what you say so we are even.

Yes you continue to address me. Odd.

The IbanezerScrooge · Apr 12, 2024

Slibhin said:
You are on a religious forum and people don't need your mockery or snark. You are not smarter then everyone else here.

but am I wrong? If we were in another part of the world we all might be in bodily danger just for having these discussion. Isn't that absurd to you? Wouldn't it be just as absurd if people were killing each other because they felt the Elves had claims to middle-earth and they identify as descendants of the Elves so the land where your house is should belong to them? And the other group says no it was the Dwarves. Isn't that absurd? You don't really need to be all that smart to see the absurdity.

Slibhin · Apr 12, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
American Evangelicalism, as a religious tradition, has been saturated by a set of religious beliefs and motifs that emerged in the 19th and 20th centuries. As Evangelicalism changed to conform to a particular set of ideas in the mid-to-late 20th century, and at the same time became aligned with an emerging reactionary form of American politics in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement, there has been a merging of religion and politics that creates a very specific view of the modern State of Israel. In the aftermath of 9/11 anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiments became more pronounced in Evangelical circles. Which means that the struggles and issues between Israelis and Palestinians have come to be viewed as exemplifying a spiritual battle between good (Israel) and evil (Palestinians). And since eschatological and apocalyptic beliefs have been attached to this, this is viewed not only as good vs evil being played out on earth, but as a sign of "the end times".

Jews and Muslims are, effectively, caricatures of real people and not real people, and are viewed through a particular religious perspective. For many Israel is destined by God to achieve glory over and against the evil represented by the Palestinians; of course this is only short term; because long term there is a belief that the modern State of Israel--and Jewish people more generally--will (after Christians are poofed away from earth into heaven) become the target of a globalist universal government headed by the literal Antichrist, and this will in turn drive the Jewish people into becoming Christians--now they don't say it that way, they will say that the Jewish people will en masse come to believe in Jesus but that they will be Jews and not Christians because a distinction is made between Christians/the Church and Jews/Israel that gets really complicated in this theological system (it's called Dispensationalism, by the way).

Jews are just pawns on the chess board in this system, intended to be lambs led to the slaughter.
Muslims, on the other hand, are also pawns--but pawns of the devil in this case.

Now, it's actually a pretty small minority of Christians--globally--that hold to any of these views. But it happens to be a very loud and very powerful minority, especially in the United States. Which gives the impression to many outside of Christianity that it is more common than it actually is.

-CryptoLutheran

I have become well aware of Christian Zionism, replacement theology and dispensationalism (although this is the first time I've heard that word). They believe they are going to be teleported to heaven before some sort of apocalypse. Although there is a war in Jerusalem, there is nothing in the Tanakh about teleporting to heaven, evil demon-men (anti-christs) or mass murder. Christians believe Jesus is coming back to slaughter all us heathens and give Israel to them.

The Tanakh says the Messiah will establish world peace, bring people together to worship HaShem, restore the Jewish people and write the Torah in people's hearts. He will also establish justice for all. The Tanakh says G-d will wipe away tears and people will know war no more, or pain or suffering. The anti-Christ also cannot exist because there is no devil in Judaism, such a being is a totally Christian invention. Angels do not have free will or the ability to rebel, therefore Satan, who is barely even mentioned in the Tanakh, can not have been cast to earth or whatever. We also do not believe in hell or even a defined afterlife.

What these people teach is completely inconsistent with Messianic prophecy and contradicts the Tanakh.

Aside from that, they do not care about Jews. As you said, they care about making sure war continues in Israel so they can somehow accelerate the return of Jesus (who is not the Messiah according to Jewish prophecy anyway) and take a trip to heaven.

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