A few questions for Protestants

timothyu

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, there was no Bible as we know it, so what about all those Christians who had no Bible? What was their "pillar and ground of truth" at the time? The Church.
Seriously? Jesus and His followers relied heavily on the scriptures of what we now call the OT. The church was formed on the truth from God within those old scriptures, specifically put God's will ahead of our own and love all as self. The NT was more a what's happening in the 1st century update, but what was happening was still based on the old scriptures. The church was a movement built upon truths from God in those old scriptures, not some industrial institutionalized factory popping out products based on gentile engineering.
 
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keepitsimple144

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I agree. The gospel of Jesus Christ predates any written form. The Bible is a fruit of the Church, a church didn't pop out of a book. For centuries, there was no Bible as we know it, so what about all those Christians who had no Bible? What was their "pillar and ground of truth" at the time? The Church.
When Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, 1 John 5:1]
“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:15-18​

Was it this divine revelation that established salvation in Christ or do you imagine he would have to wait for catechism?
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17​
We heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 2 Peter 1:17-20​
A lovely verse, but it still doesn't prove the Bible, and not the Church, is the pillar and ground of truth. People, the Church made the Scriptures known to all nations.
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself. 1 John 5:10
KJ21
2 Tim 3:15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Doesn't your church contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints?
To those who are called, sanctified [set apart] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ; Jude 1:1-3
 
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Studyman

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Thank you study man for your participation in my thread. However, could you please cite the chapter/verse where St. Paul says "The foolishness of preaching" to show us His Salvation plan for men?

Also study man, in the future, may I please request if you quote Holy Scripture, that you to give us the chapter and verse for easy reference to look up.

Paul just confirmed what the Law and Prophets teach men who believe them. I am happy to show that God chose "the foolishness of preaching", HE even tells us why.

Ex. 20: 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Jer. 7: 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

Jer. 44: 4 Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. 5 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods.

This theme is present throughout the Holy Scriptures. Paul tells men why these stories were written down.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, "to the intent" we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: "and they are written" for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

There are pages of scriptures given us "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Paul understood this perfectly.

1 cor. 1: 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching "to save them" that believe.
 
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Studyman

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Ahh yes, the Ol go to for Protestants, 2 Timothy 3:16–17, know it well, the claim of Protestants that Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. However, study man, an examination of this verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is “profitable” (Greek: ophelimos), that is, helpful. (Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is “sufficient”) I would suggest reading preceding verses 14-15 and then we could discuss 2Tim.16 further.

Yes, we should examine Paul's words in context, in order to understand, not what one or more of this world's religious businesses and sects teach he means, but what the Spirit of God that inspired Him means. I am anxious to discuss this with you. So often it seems religious men on these forums are simply here to justify and promote their own adopted religion, Catholics, Protestants, non-denominational etc., they are too many to list. Many won't answer questions which might bring question to their religious philosophies or traditions. I hope you will not be like them and answer the questions I posed to you and engage in an honest discussion regarding Paul's teaching to Timothy.


2 Tim. 3:13 But "evil men and seducers" shall wax worse and worse, (prophesy of the future) deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing "of whom" thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise "unto salvation through faith" which is in Christ Jesus.

So what "Scriptures" existed when Timothy was a child? What Scriptures existed when Paul wrote this? I look forward to your answer to these questions. I believe it was Law and Prophets that Paul said were written for our admonition. (1 cor. 10) I think this is important because of the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible".

John 6: 44 "No man" can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. "Every man" therefore that hath heard, and hath learned "of the Father", cometh unto me.

Remember also that Paul warned about deceitful men, who would claim to be Apostles of Christ.

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

It seems then, that Paul is teaching Timothy to stick to the Law and Prophets which can make him wise unto Salvation, as it did Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the wise men, because evil seductive (Don't look evil) men will deceive and be deceived. Didn't the Jesus "of the Bible" teach the same thing?

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So do you believe that Paul is furthering the Gospel, or Teaching of the Christ "of the Bible" here? So what steps can I make to protect myself from seductive religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, from deceiving me? It seems this is the purpose of Paul's warning to Timothy and me, to believe and remember the following will be "profitable" for me.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration "of God", and is "profitable" for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God "may be perfect"( a commandment of the Jesus "of the Bible"), throughly furnished unto all good works.

Whereas listening and adopting the religious philosophies and traditions of "Many" who come in Christ's Name, who Paul teaches Titus, "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate, is "NOT Profitable" for me.

it seems that Paul believed, as did Jesus and the rest of the Disciples, that the "Truth" of God is found in Scriptures, taught by those teachers God's Himself Chose, including His Own Son, the Christ, the Rock of Israel.

It seems? Chapter and or verse where it says this, please.

That's an easy one.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed "the oracles of God". (Law and Prophets) 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: (That means NO!) yea, let God be true, but "every man" a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified "in thy sayings", and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Certainly Paul believed in the Holy Scriptures, even though "Many", who profess to know God accuse him otherwise.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And the Jesus "of the bible" promoted the same truth.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There are volumes more Scriptures which support this understanding, but if a person isn't persuaded by these scriptures, neither will they be persuaded by all the others, in my view.

I'll address the rest in a different post.
 
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Studyman

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So at least according to the God and Christ "of the Bible", the answer would be YES.


Thank you study man. By this statement of yours, I can only surmise that you are an adherent of the Protestant belief of sola scriptura. If I am correct, could you please provide us with the chapter/ verse from the bible to back up your claim that "the bible" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.

Protestants and Catholics are no different in my view. The whole "Reformation" thing is astonishing for those who can study them without Bias. The Catholics broke away from the Jews religion, which transgressed God's commandments by their own traditions. But they kept many of her traditions. They kept her religious business model and much of her marketing strategy. Like building shrines of worship made of wood and stone, having the "anointed" preachers in their ceremonial robes sitting in the chief seats of the house. They created a religious business so wealthy, so politically connected to this world's Governments, that the Jews religion pales in comparison. They polluted God's Sabbaths, same as the Pharisees. Actually worse, they rejected it completely and created their own. They rejected the Feasts of the Lord, and created their own high days founded on ancient pagan deities, same as Solomon and the Jews. They rejected God's Judgments, same as the Pharisees, they created their own images of God in the likeness of men.

So along come the "Reformers", who "broke away" from the Catholics, and yet they adopted many of her traditions like her sabbaths and her high days, and her judgments and her progressive tendencies to change over time according to whatever it takes to successfully compete for butts to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship.

They both "come in Christ's name", they both have preachers who "Transform themselves into Apostles of Christ", and they both transgress the Commandments of God by their own manmade traditions.

I know the Protestant religious sects, there are "many", say they broke away from the catholic religion, but from the outside, they just look like a little boy who ran away from home, but kept a picture or lock of his mother's hair in their pocket.

For me, I have left this world's religions, or as the Jesus of the bible teaches, "Come out of her, (Rev. 18) and followed Paul's advice as to what was "Profitable" for me and what was not. And my posts reflect the freedom I have in Christ, not to be snared or bound by this world's various religious businesses and sects, to promote their philosophies which changes according to the name above the door of the manmade shrine of worship. As Paul teaches;



I highly recommend it.


I, as a cradle Catholic don't believe that you can.

Balls in your court!! :)
However, if you do not believe in the Protestant doctrine of "sola scriptura" (the bible alone) my apologies.

It was God and His Son's Words, and the Disciples God gave to His Son's Words that I posted. Believing in Scriptures is not a "Protestant tradition or Doctrine". If they believed the Holy scriptures, they wouldn't have adopted the Catholic idols, sabbaths, high days, traditions and images of God in the likeness of men that they created.

2 Cor. 6: 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The Jesus "of the Bible" was pretty clear about this in my view.

Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

This is a great discussion, thank you so much for asking me to clarify my understanding. I used to get offended, even angry when Scriptures showed me an inconvenient truth like the one above. I have also been freed by the Christ "of the Bible" from those emotions as well.

I highly recommend the journey, although men who choose this path will lose friends and family. After 30 years though, it's worth so much more than what was lost, in my view.
 
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timothyu

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So along come the "Reformers", who "broke away" from the Catholics,
Don't forget the catholics broke away from the catholics, trying to re- win the latin/greek civil war within the Roman Empire they lost in the time of Constantine.
 
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Studyman

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Don't forget the catholics broke away from the catholics, trying to re- win the latin/greek civil war within the Roman Empire they lost in the time of Constantine.

There has been a lot of "breaking away" from one religion of this world to another. I think it is because God is making sure there is never another "Tower of Babel" again, you know, a ONE world religion. For me, God has exposed, through His Word, the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of the religions of this world over time in my journey. I believe HE had His Prophets prophesy about this as well.

Judges 2: 20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; 21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: 22 That through them "I may prove Israel", whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. 23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

You are right about the mammoth Catholic religion that has splintered since its beginning.
 
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keepitsimple144

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When Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, 1 John 5:1] Matt 16:15-18​
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17​
We heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 2 Peter 1:17-20​
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself. 1 John 5:10
They shall all be taught by God. ’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.' John 6:45
 
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timothyu

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There has been a lot of "breaking away" from one religion of this world to another. I think it is because God is making sure there is never another "Tower of Babel" again, you know, a ONE world religion
Exactly. The one world religion of adversarial man and the fallen elohim will be one built upon those adversarial ways.. most likely Corporatism. The false prophet has always been any especially within Christianity that support the will of man over the Kingdom. We've always seen examples of man using God to self justify man's actions instead of changing themselves to follow his will. We saw that first happen on a large scale when the Kingdom and the will of God was rejected to rejoin and assimilate with the Roman Empire. Church and state have flirted ever since.
 
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timothyu

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You are right about the mammoth Catholic religion that has splintered since its beginning.
And interestingly rejecting all Christian influence outside of the Roman Empire at the time of it's incorporation..
 
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discombobulated1

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The bible is certainly the guide and we all have the Holy Spirit within us to help us along. That's why He was sent. We have elders and pastors who are to uphold the teachings in the bible, but no, they aren't infallible. No one is infallible other than God. We're all doing our best. I do have the assurance to what the bible says is true. That is the word of God. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, so we trust His words and what He set forward for us to do (The Great Commission).
But Jesus established a CHURCH (Mt 16:18) and promised that the very gates of Hell would not prevail over it. How can that promise be fulfilled if there are thousands and thousands of different interpretations of the Word of God? I am not a happy camper being Catholic (long, convoluted story there.. See my story @ Introduce Yourself), and yet I know t hat the Catholic Church is the only one that goes back to Day One of Christianity. All the others came after Luther (16th century).
 
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discombobulated1

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No human is infallible.
No, all humans are infallible AT CERTAIN TIMES, doing certain tasks.

When you parent a child, for example, you KNOW (because you are much older than the child) that such things as putting your little hands on a hot burner on the stove is going to hurt badly and possibly require a trip to the hospital. That is an infallible assessment of the danger.

Popes are not infallible in matters not pertaining to faith and morals and there are other criteria that have to be in place for their statement to be infallible. And btw, I do not say that Francis is a valid pope... not at all. I say none of the last 6 popes have been real ones. I have studied modern history of the Church, do not say this lightly.

On the other hand, you don't have to study a lot of history to realize that what Francis says is often NOT Christian
 
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timothyu

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But Jesus established a CHURCH (Mt 16:18) and promised that the very gates of Hell would not prevail over it. How can that promise be fulfilled if there are thousands and thousands of different interpretations of the Word of God?
Because the two are not connected. The Kingdom was established and the first death would no longer prevail. Its that simple what that meant and when the focus is properly on the Gospel of the Kingdom, Jesus' only gospel, on not on the religion that becomes evident. The Sanhedrin failed in the same way.
 
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discombobulated1

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..The whole "Reformation" thing is astonishing for those who can study them without Bias. The Catholics broke away from the Jews religion,
NOt so. The Catholic faith is a continuation of the Jewish religion, but of course WITH CHRIST, who changed a few things but did not abolish God's laws, which should go w/o saying but there's that Once SAved Always Saved thing which some seem to construe as a license to sin. The kosher laws changed with Jesus and a few other things, but God's laws stand forever. In the OT God told the Jews to do certain things in perpetuity.. rituals, etc.

An example comes to mind, probably the most important one: There was always to be a light burning in the synagogue to signify the presence of God which was always going to be there (though God could and did remove it here and there). Today, there is a light burning in all Catholic Churches to signify the same thing, God's Presence. And his Presence (Christ's) is there, despite anti-Christs taking over the Vatican in 1958.

That said, it is possible God has removed his presence in SOME Catholic Churches? I don't know because I don't have time to visit all American Churches.. But I went to one recently that did not seem to have the Presence. Then I went to one in thesame town and that one did.
 
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BibleLinguist

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But Jesus established a CHURCH (Mt 16:18) and promised that the very gates of Hell would not prevail over it. How can that promise be fulfilled if there are thousands and thousands of different interpretations of the Word of God? I am not a happy camper being Catholic (long, convoluted story there.. See my story @ Introduce Yourself), and yet I know t hat the Catholic Church is the only one that goes back to Day One of Christianity. All the others came after Luther (16th century).
Actually, the Catholic church was not immediately established. Nor was it the continuation of the apostles when it did establish itself. Do you know how Constantine "converted" his entire army? That was part of the impetus at the start of the Catholic church's formation. If, as it appears, you are unsatisfied in your current situation, I humbly suggest you take a closer look at the history of the church. Ignore terms like "catholic" (meaning "universal") and ignore the implications of expressions like "THE Church." There has never, since the Catholic church arose, been only one church. Study it out, and see. Of particular interest, should your study include such, are the doctrinal changes that evolved as time distanced the people from the early Christians. For a time, the Catholic church appeared to be the only church, by virtue of the fact that it oppressed any others, and eradicated them wherever possible. Following the Reformation, the power of the papacy began to fade, and in 1798 when Berthier removed the pope from his throne it was a strong blow to Rome's civil power.

Remember, too, that God's "church" is really His people. It is not an organization, and certainly not a building. The word "church" is not even a Biblical word: the Bible's word is "congregation," i.e. a group of people. And who are God's people? Must they be members of the Sanhedrin, members of a church, members of an ethnic group? No--and you know that already. God's people are not His by virtue of any form of earthly membership or citizenship. They are His because they keep His commandments, and follow Him. Jesus himself said that he had sheep in other folds. I understand this to mean that He has followers who are of other faiths. Remember the Samaritan woman? In those days, the Jews would not allow her to so much as step foot inside their Temple. But Jesus' conversation with her at the well reveals that she was one of his followers. Being of another "fold," she was still one of his sheep. God has people in every "church" who are His.
 
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Studyman

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Actually, the Catholic church was not immediately established. Nor was it the continuation of the apostles when it did establish itself. Do you know how Constantine "converted" his entire army? That was part of the impetus at the start of the Catholic church's formation. If, as it appears, you are unsatisfied in your current situation, I humbly suggest you take a closer look at the history of the church. Ignore terms like "catholic" (meaning "universal") and ignore the implications of expressions like "THE Church." There has never, since the Catholic church arose, been only one church. Study it out, and see. Of particular interest, should your study include such, are the doctrinal changes that evolved as time distanced the people from the early Christians. For a time, the Catholic church appeared to be the only church, by virtue of the fact that it oppressed any others, and eradicated them wherever possible. Following the Reformation, the power of the papacy began to fade, and in 1798 when Berthier removed the pope from his throne it was a strong blow to Rome's civil power.

Remember, too, that God's "church" is really His people. It is not an organization, and certainly not a building. The word "church" is not even a Biblical word: the Bible's word is "congregation," i.e. a group of people. And who are God's people? Must they be members of the Sanhedrin, members of a church, members of an ethnic group? No--and you know that already. God's people are not His by virtue of any form of earthly membership or citizenship. "They are His because they keep His commandments, and follow Him". Jesus himself said that he had sheep in other folds. I understand this to mean that He has followers who are of other faiths. Remember the Samaritan woman? In those days, the Jews would not allow her to so much as step foot inside their Temple. But Jesus' conversation with her at the well reveals that she was one of his followers. Being of another "fold," she was still one of his sheep. God has people in every "church" who are His.

There is so much truth in this post, and very rare to hear it spoken on forums like this, but I want to ask you about the last sentence to understand what you mean by it. Do you mean there are men from all "churches" who leave their religion and follow God, like Abraham and Peter? Or do you mean there are people who have adopted and are promoting the philosophies and traditions of other religions, who are still God's People?
 
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There is so much truth in this post, and very rare to hear it spoken on forums like this, but I want to ask you about the last sentence to understand what you mean by it. Do you mean there are men from all "churches" who leave their religion and follow God, like Abraham and Peter? Or do you mean there are people who have adopted and are promoting the philosophies and traditions of other religions, who are still God's People?
I do not mean to say that all doctrines are acceptable to God. That would not be true. Nor do I mean to count as among God's sheep those who knowingly teach things which are not Biblical.

The example I would give is quite illustrative of what I mean: the Samaritan woman. The woman at the well had been ostracized, not just by the Jews, who would not have allowed a Samaritan anywhere near their Temple, but also by many in her own community. We do not know her full story, but very possibly she was not even attending religious services. And yet, her heart was open to God's leading.

What I mean by saying that there are some of God's people in every church is simply this: honest, sincere believers who are doing their best to live up to the light which they have and know. God's people may not be correct on every point, but God winks at their ignorance. When light (or opportunity for it) comes, however, it is their duty to accept it--and God's true followers will be happy to do so.
 
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