VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Jeffrey Bowden said:

What I wrote EXACTLY aligns with Acts 1:11. You're going back to the "prophecy" claims, because you CAN'T refute the truth I presented. You go back to prophecy claims when you can't refute. Thank you, I am complimented. Have a good night!

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There is nothing in the Bible that says the 6th seal is the next prophesied event. You are making that up.

keras said:

Sheer pretentious nonsense.
You are guilty of making scripture fit your beliefs.

At the next Prophesied event; the Sixth Seal world changer, Jesus does not leave heaven; He sends His fiery wrath to destroy Hid enemies. No one will be raptured then. Psalms 18:7-15.... the Lord thundered from the heavens.......

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1 Th 4:16-17: ... And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

"Then" means immediately afterwards. You say Jesus goes sideways and doddles around on Earth. Verse 17 says we who are alive, who are left, will be IMMEDIATELLY CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

IMMEDIATELY we are RAPTURED.

Where did John 14:2 say our mansions are? What did Jesus say he will do? Verse 3: ... I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am (currently in Heaven) you may be also.

keras said:

Sheer pretentious nonsense.
You are guilty of making scripture fit your beliefs.

At the next Prophesied event; the Sixth Seal world changer, Jesus does not leave heaven; He sends His fiery wrath to destroy Hid enemies. No one will be raptured then. Psalms 18:7-15.... the Lord thundered from the heavens.......

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I'm quoting Scripture, word for word. You're quoting your pretentious ego to pronounce wrongful judgment.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

I'm quoting Scripture, word for word. You're quoting your pretentious ego to pronounce wrongful judgment.

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I'm APPLYING Scripture, word for word, just as those words say in Acts 1:9-11. You are critical of me because you can't refute my application of Scripture. You are the one teaching falsehoods. The next prophesied event isn't the 6th seal, it's the pre-Trib rapture. So, said the angel in Acts 1:11.

Antonio39 said:

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

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Matt 24 tells us that there is most certainly a rapture of all the saints. They are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" according to that chapter.

But it is post-trib according to Matt 24.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

BobRyan said:

Matt 24 tells us that there is most certainly a rapture of all the saints. They are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" according to that chapter.

But it is post-trib according to Matt 24.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Jeffwhosoever said:

You are assuming that the elect in this passage refers to all believers including you and me

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I don't see anything in those verses above that says "this does not mean you" or "this does not refer to anyone who has accepted Me as the Messiah" or ... do you??

Jeffwhosoever said:

that have come to faith already, but it could also refer to those who come to faith during the first half of tribulation after realizing the Scripture

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At the start of the chapter the context for Christ's teaching in Matt 24 -- is as follows -

3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

When Jesus said "this gospel" of the kingdom will be preached in all the world and then shall the end come (in Matt 24) - He is most certainly not saying "I only want to discuss a tiny group of Christians living during a short snip of time right at the end - that does not effect Christians". Rather He is giving the answer to the question.

In the rapture described in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 14:2-3 - we are talking about all Christians taken to heaven at a single point in time - in the future. A huge event. Nothing like it in all of time. Jesus is not "skipping it" in Mat 24 -- rather He is dead on target.

Jeffwhosoever said:

they were taught but didn't believe or didn't accept Christ as savior during the dispensation of grace.

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If the answer Christ gives - ignores all of Christianity for 2000 years and just focuses on a tiny group living at that time as you suggest, it is a huge spin on that answer given the context (the plain reading of the text and its apparent meaning).

Surely the disciples could not be viewing themselves or any of the followers of Christ, as not included in the entire 2000 years of Christianity - nor is their question at the start of the chapter at all limited to just a tiny group living for few years at the point you are identifying. The plain reading of the text appears to reference the main hope of the NT saints.

1 Peter 1:13 says all NT saints "fixed their hope completely on the grace to be brought to them at the Revelation of Jesus Christ" - yet when they ask Christ about that singular event - your suggestion is that all of Christian history is dismissed as well as the big rapture event where all Christians are taken to heaven "at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Does that not raise a few questions about your suggestion?

Jeffwhosoever said:

This understanding fits a pre-tribulation rapture, a mid-tribulation rapture, and a pre-wrath rapture

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It only fits it by supposing that the tribulation, and the rapture of the saints who are all in the sky in Matt 24 - is not anything that the NT is focused on or that would affect the people in Matt 24 asking the question of Christ. Just a tiny group that live for a very short time in the end, rather than the ones asking the question and all Christians in all of time.

So then "the understanding" you're referring to above starts to look a bit like eisegesis when inserted into Matt 24's statements. The details in Matt 24 simply do not fit it given that all of the NT saints are singularly focused on the real rapture according to 1 Peter 1:13.

Jeffwhosoever said:

Why rapture us if we are going to immediately return with Christ back to the earth?

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Very good point. I too - do not find such an idea in scripture. Certainly not in Matt 24.

Matt 24 does not appear to say "They immediately return back to Earth". Rather this is part of the John 14:1-3 scenario; for rapture of the form "I will come again and receive you to Myself" -- meaning "to My Father's house"... heaven. That means - it is the real rapture. The one that takes saints to heaven.

Jeffwhosoever said:

I believe the post tribulation rapture is the only interpretation that I can fully rule out.

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So it says "AFTER the Tribulation" and your response is - "post tribulation event" is most certainly not what "after the tribulation" means??

Doesn't that look a bit like eisegesis - and turning the text back on itself?

BobRyan said:

Matt 24 tells us that there is most certainly a rapture of all the saints. They are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" according to that chapter.

But it is post-trib according to Matt 24.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

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Bob, you are missing huge differences between Matt 24:31 and these rapture verses:

2 Th 2:1 ... by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

John 14:3: ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16 -17: ... the Lord himself will descend ... 17 ... we .. will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord ...

You will not find any such wording in Matt 24:31. It is a gathering, but where to? That verse does not say anything like the rapture verses above.

BobRyan said:

Matt 24 tells us that there is most certainly a rapture of all the saints. They are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" according to that chapter.

But it is post-trib according to Matt 24.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

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You are writing about the 2A (2nd Advent); not the rapture.

The data below will definitively prove why the next prophesied event WILL BE the pre-Trib rapture:

In the 2A (2nd Advent), Jesus fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return. Jesus will descend from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds (out of view of the wicked world below), then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. The full proof of His misalignment with Acts 1:11, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. That reverse sequence would be: descension by Himself, behind clouds, then only into the view of believers.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. Verse 16 very importantly makes it crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself because He ascended by Himself (Acts 1:9). In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can see Jesus. That substantiates the fact that Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You are writing about the 2A (2nd Advent); not the rapture.

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I know why the Bible says the saints are all in the sky at the rapture.

But I don't know of any reason for all saints of all ages to be in the sky and then gathered by the angels - at other times.

do you??

And of course the Matt 24 question that Christ is asked --- is focused on "the event" that 1 Peter 1:13 says all the saints in the NT are focused on.. the appearing, the revelation of Christ - the grace to be brought to all saints of all time at that event.

2 Pet 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The data below will definitively prove why the next prophesied event WILL BE the pre-Trib rapture:

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No doubt it will be the rapture - but Matt 24 says it is post trib. It takes place at the appearing of Christ - all tribes of the Earth see Him and mourn.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

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No doubt .. 'I will come again and receive you to Myself" -- so that very visible event has all the saints in the air... angels sent out to gather the saints who are "in the air" at that rapture event.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Bob, you are missing huge differences between Matt 24:31 and these rapture verses:

2 Th 2:1 ... by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

John 14:3: ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16 -17: ... the Lord himself will descend ... 17 ... we .. will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord ...

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So then we agree that 2 Thess 2, and John 14:2-3 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 are all looking forward to that same event.
It is the Coming of Jesus as we see in John 14 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2... also described as "His coming" in Matt 24

"caught up (rapturo) to meet the Lord in the air" 1 Thess 4:17 . Matt 24 In the sky

So the saints are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" at that event according to Matt 24.

"I will come again and receive you to myself" John 14:3

Matt 24 :

The Matt 24 question that Christ is asked --- is focused on "the event" that 1 Peter 1:13 says all the saints in the NT are focused on.. the appearing, the revelation of Christ - the grace to be brought to all saints of all time at that event when all are gathered from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Pet 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return.

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There are a number of detailed descriptions of Christ's coming (as Matt 24 describes it) that go into much more detail than the brief sentence in Acts chapter 1.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven

your suggestion is the reverse of that.

So in Acts 1 -
AT the start - Jesus is visible to anyone on the ground that looks at him -- and eventually it ends with him in the sky so far away and in a cloud such that he can no longer be seen by anyone who is looking his direction
.
The reverse is that He starts high up in the sky - so far away that He cannot be seen - and then as He comes closer anyone looking his direction can see him.

I am not sure this really helps your point. But I would say that the longer descriptions showing it to be a "very loud and noisy" event -- that you get of the future coming of Jesus - such as in 1 Thess 4:13-18, give even more details.

Acts 1 seems to be arguing more for a visible return -- that is the one thing that is the same between his leaving and returning.

When He returns all saints of all ages are resurrected -- unlike Acts 1 -- having just a few believers from local surrounding areas.
When He returns a great sound of the trumpet blast happens -- unlike Acts 1.

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Question for you - what problem do you encounter if it turns out that all NT saints are focused on this one singular event just as 1 Peter 1:13 says - and all these descriptions are speaking of the one singular event we are all supposed to be looking for? The rapture of the saints to heaven at Jesus' coming. "I will come again and receive you to Myself" -- a very loud, noisy and visible event where all saints in all ages are taken to heaven.

How does this cause a problem just to let it roll like that in your POV?

BobRyan said:

I know why the Bible says the saints are all in the sky at the rapture.

But I don't know of any reason for all saints of all ages to be in the sky and then gathered by the angels - at other times.

do you??

And of course the Matt 24 question that Christ is asked --- is focused on "the event" that 1 Peter 1:13 says all the saints in the NT are focused on.. the appearing, the revelation of Christ - the grace to be brought to all saints of all time at that event.

2 Pet 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.




No doubt it will be the rapture - but Matt 24 says it is post trib. It takes place at the appearing of Christ - all tribes of the Earth see Him and mourn.



No doubt .. 'I will come again and receive you to Myself" -- so that very visible event has all the saints in the air... angels sent out to gather the saints who are "in the air" at that rapture event.

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You're mixing 2A verses with rapture verses. That creates errors.

Matt 24:31 is a 2A verse, that no one knows where it goes because it doesn't say "unto Him" or anything else like that. My guess is, if verse 31 occurs right after verse 30, then the elect are placed in the armies following Jesus in the 2A (Rev 19:14). If verse 31 starts an interlude in Matt 24, it could occur in conjunction with Matt 25:31-40.

In any case, Matt 24:31 is not the rapture, though it is a "gathering" verse. Another disqualifying factor for verse 31 being a rapture verse is its trumpet only sends out angels to gather the elect. In 1 Th 4:16 (a rapture verse), its trumpet gathers the dead in Christ. Therefore, Matt 24:31 is not associated with the rapture in any manner.

All rapture verses explicitly state that we are gathered unto Jesus:

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Kokavkrystallos said:

It's whenever the Father decides to send the Son, and we are simply told to watch and pray for you know not when the time is! Mark 13.
While a lot of scripture does seem to indicate an imminent return, which can be taken as pre-trib, it really doesn't say the tribulation absolutely will not start till the believers are taken.
And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 about not being appointed to wrath means the wrath as in condemnation to hell, as John 3:36 explains. Most pre-tribbers automatically fall back on that verse, and claim the entire tribulation is wrath, but technically the 7 vials are Gods wrath, so you'd have to take a pre-wrath position with that.

Need to read 1 Thess 5:8-10 for the context,
"But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

It's all about salvation, being given eternal life that we be saved from eternal wrath, not the tribulation.

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Paul wrote 1 Th 1:10 (KJV): And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. ----- That's about us being "delivered" from the coming wrath. In the Trib, the wrath of God begins no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere. ----- Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- Therefore, God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the coming wrath. God's wrath starts on day 1. That means the pre-Trib rapture is valid.

Jesus was speaking in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 3:10's the last eight words: to try those who dwell on the earth. "Those that dwell on the earth" is a very demeaning description. This is how such folks are described in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. ------ In the Trib, as of Rev 11:10, those who dwell on the earth are hardcore unbelievers who have rejected God. We are not going to be "those who dwell on the earth." We will be raptured before the Trib, because that's what Jesus means in Rev 3:10.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You're mixing 2A verses with rapture verses. That creates errors.

Matt 24:31 is a 2A verse, that no one knows where it goes because it doesn't say "unto Him" or anything else like that. My guess is, if verse 31 occurs right after verse 30, then the elect are placed in the armies following Jesus in the 2A (Rev 19:14).

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If you mix things around swapping context right and left in the middle of the chapter it gets pretty messy. What is the problem with just leaving it as it reads?

It is the the singular topic "the coming of the Son of man" -- the one singular event that 1 Peter 1:13 says all NT saints focus on .,

Matt 24 :

3 "what will be the sign of Your coming"'
27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Just as it reads - it is a post-trib rapture where all the saints of all ages are in the sky and the Angels are direct to "gather His elect"

Matt 23:29-33
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Same thing in 2 Thess 2 - regarding "our gathering".

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

Its all the same thing -- and that results in no problems at all - plus the text is rendered just as it reads, nothing to fix or insert or jump-around

Jeffrey Bowden said:

If verse 31 starts an interlude in Matt 24, it could occur in conjunction with Matt 25:31-40.

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Or even easier - vs 27 - 33 are already in sequence.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In any case, Matt 24:31 is not the rapture, though it is a "gathering" verse.

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That is a forced restriction on the text. The text itself does not call for it.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Another disqualifying factor for verse 31 being a rapture verse is its trumpet only sends out angels to gather the elect.

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Which is exactly what is happening in 1 Thess 4:13-18

It is all the same thing.

1 Thess 4: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In 1 Th 4:16 (a rapture verse), its trumpet gathers the dead in Christ.

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Just as we see in Matt 24 -- all the saints both the living and the dead as explained in 1 Thess 4.

IN Matt 24 -- it is all the saints "the elect" of all ages.

As 1 Thess 4 says - they are first resurrected and then they are taken up in the sky.
As Matt 24 says they are then gathered from where they are in the sky.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Therefore, Matt 24:31 is not associated with the rapture in any manner.

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There is no other clear Bible teaching on saints getting into the sky - apart from the teaching we already have - and that is in 1 Thess 4.

BobRyan said:

If you mix things around swapping context right and left in the middle of the chapter it gets pretty messy. What it the problem with just leaving it as it reads.

It is the the singular topic "the coming of the Son of man" -- the one singular event that 1 Peter 1:13 says all NT saints focus on .,

Matt 24 :

3 "what will be the sign of Your coming"'
27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Just as it reads - it is a post-trib rapture where all the saints of all ages are in the sky and the Angels are direct to "gather His elect"

Matt 23:29-33
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Same thing in 2 Thess 2 - regarding "our gathering".

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

Its all the same thing -- and that results in no problems at all - plus the text is rendered just as it reads, nothing to fix or insert or jump-around


Or even easier - vs 27 - 33 are already in sequence.


That is a forced restriction on the text. The text itself does not call for it.


Which is exactly what is happening in 1 Thess 4:13-18

It is all the same thing.

1 Thess 4: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Just as we see in Matt 24 -- all the saints both the living and the dead as explained in 1 Thess 4.

IN Matt 24 -- it is all the saints "the elect" of all ages.

As 1 Thess 4 says - they are first resurrected and then they are taken up in the sky.
As Matt 24 says they are then gathered from where they are in the sky.

There is no other clear Bible teaching on saints getting into the sky - apart from the teaching we already have - and that is in 1 Thess 4.

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You are still mixing verses that don't relate to each other. Matt 24:31 and 1 Th 4:16 are separate events. That is proven by just the functions of their trumpets. In verse 31, that trumpet only sends out angels to gather the elect. Verse 16 sounds its trumpet to only raise the dead in Christ. In verse 31, are the elect dead? In verse 16, are any angels sent out? Verse 31 is about a gathering that no one knows where it goes. The gathering in verse 16 goes straight to Heaven, just as it says in verse 17. You are being silly to say Matt 24:31 is the same event as 1 Th 4:16-17.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You are still mixing verses that don't relate to each other. Matt 24:31 and 1 Th 4:16 are separate events.

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I don't see any proof of that since they are both dealing with the rapture of the saints where saints are taken up into the sky - at the coming of Christ.

It is not like that happens a bunch of times in our future.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

That is proven by just the functions of their trumpets.

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The various ways trumpets are described - does not help us create a many-event scenario were all the saints of all time are often taken up into the sky - gathered together etc.

That sort of solution is very convoluted as opposed to having all saints in the NT focused on the one singular event of 1 Peter 1:13 where all the saints of all time are taken up into the sky to meet the Lord and then taken "to My Father's house" John 14 -- heaven.

That appears to be very simple and a direct reading of the text. Matt 24 does not try present multiple events where all saints of all time are taken up into the sky and neither does 1 Thess 4.

It is the same event.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In verse 31, that trumpet only sends out angels to gather the elect.

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In 1Thess 4 it is only the elect , only the saints that are taken up in the rapture.

Again it appears to be the same event.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Verse 16 sounds its trumpet to only raise the dead in Christ.

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Agreed.

But in 1 Thess 4 it is BOTH the dead in Christ and ALSO "we who are alive and remain" so it is once again ALL the saints. Just as we see in Matt 24.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In verse 31, are the elect dead?

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In vs 31 of Matt 24 the saints are in the sky because this is the rapture event were both the living and the dead in Christ are taken up alive - the dead in Christ having been resurrected in 1 Thess 4, in what Rev 20 calls "the first resurrection". It consists only of the saints of all time and Rev 20 says "over these - the second death has no power".

They are all describing the same event since as 1 Peter 1:13 says "it is the one single event" that all NT saints base their hope in.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In verse 16, are any angels sent out? Verse 31 is about a gathering

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Indeed.

2 Thess 2:1-3 calls it "our gathering together to Him"

It is the one singular event that all NT saints are focused on as per 1 Peter 1:13

This is the simplest and most obvious scenario and it does not require a lot of creative rework.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The gathering in verse 16 goes straight to Heaven, just as it says in verse 17

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I agree.

That is exactly what that one singular event does - that all the NT saints are focused on.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

. You are being silly to say Matt 24:31 is the same event as 1 Th 4:16-17.

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Give a reason as to why that is not the most obvious scenario.

BobRyan said:

But in 1 Thess 4 it is BOTH the dead in Christ and ALSO "we who are alive and remain" so it is once again ALL the saints. Just as we see in Matt 24.

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Yes, and the thing is the dead are only mentioned in 1s thes 4 because that was the original subject. Paul was trying to comfort them. But yes, they are the same event.

BobRyan said:

I don't see any proof of that since they are both dealing with the rapture of the saints where saints are taken up into the sky - at the coming of Christ.

It is not like that happens a bunch of times in our future.

The various ways trumpets are described - does not help us create a many-event scenario were all the saints of all time are often taken up into the sky - gathered together etc.

That sort of solution is very convoluted as opposed to having all saints in the NT focused on the one singular event of 1 Peter 1:13 where all the saints of all time are taken up into the sky to meet the Lord and then taken "to My Father's house" John 14 -- heaven.

That appears to be very simple and a direct reading of the text. Matt 24 does not try present multiple events where all saints of all time are taken up into the sky and neither does 1 Thess 4.

It is the same event.

In 1Thess 4 it is only the elect , only the saints that are taken up in the rapture.

Again it appears to be the same event.

Agreed.

But in 1 Thess 4 it is BOTH the dead in Christ and ALSO "we who are alive and remain" so it is once again ALL the saints. Just as we see in Matt 24.

In vs 31 of Matt 24 the saints are in the sky because this is the rapture event were both the living and the dead in Christ are taken up alive - the dead in Christ having been resurrected in 1 Thess 4, in what Rev 20 calls "the first resurrection". It consists only of the saints of all time and Rev 20 says "over these - the second death has no power".

They are all describing the same event since as 1 Peter 1:13 says "it is the one single event" that all NT saints base their hope in.

Indeed.

2 Thess 2:1-3 calls it "our gathering together to Him"

It is the one singular event that all NT saints are focused on as per 1 Peter 1:13

This is the simplest and most obvious scenario and it does not require a lot of creative rework.

I agree.

That is exactly what that one singular event does - that all the NT saints are focused on.

Give a reason as to why that is not the most obvious scenario.

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I can appreciate some of what you say, but you are ignoring that Matt 24:31 does not say where that gathering goes. You are making up an answer.

There is nothing mysterious about who is raised and raptured. 1 Th 4:16-17 make that clear. In verse 16, the trumpet sounds ONCE and ALL the dead in Christ are raised. Verse 17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ----- "Then" is the first word in verse 17. That means "immediately afterward." You are correct, that aligns with John 14:3, but you are making up a connection with Matt 24:31. Again, that verse doesn't say where that gathering goes. Try either Rev 19:14 (that is still in the midst of Jesus' descent in the 2A) or Matt 25:31-40. Those are realistic guesses. I am not inventing answers like you.