Holy Spirit or Clairvoyance?

Oscarr said:

Notwithstanding all that, the test is quite simple: Is the prophet operating on the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit. Is he loving God with all his heart, mind and soul by wanting to glorify Christ above all other names, including his own? Is he loving his brothers and sisters in Christ and wanting to build them up in their faith, pointing them to Jesus? Does he radiate the joy of the Lord in his prophecies? When people hear his prophecies, do they have the peace of God in their hearts, and are assured that being justified by faith they have peace with God? Is he patient with those who have difficulty understanding the ways of the Lord? Are his prophecies full of kindness? Is he gentle with those he ministers to? Is he a good person who reflects the goodness of the Lord? Is he faithful to the plans and purposes of God as reflected in the Word? Does he minister with self control?

This test is very straightforward and simple. A self promoting "prophet" who allows his name to be more prominent than the Christ He is meant to serve, is falling short of loving God and pointing people to Jesus, who has a Name above every other Name. Therefore, even if his prophecies are accurate, they are false, because God is not honoured in them.

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These are all very important factors in judging prophecy.


In fact, I imagine God gives each one of us the ability to determine if prophecy is true or not. whether we know the Bible inside and out or not, God will let each one of us see something is wrong with a false prophecy, if we only keep our eyes on Him and do not falter. I do not wish to take away anybody's confidence in their own capability in judging prophecy for themselves!

But when it comes to judging prophecy for the Church, the scriptural way is for it to be done by the prophets. Many have presumed they had the authority to do so themselves, and have attempted to do it based upon doctrine and scriptural knowledge. These will work up to a point, provided the doctrine used is not some form of ceassationism Some attempts at prophecy are so utterly lame that kids in the children's service could tell you they are unscriptural.

There is a gift of the Spirit though, which is a better and more accurate way. I never understood this before, as I didn't think I was called as a prophet most of my life. But I get a very precise rundown from the Spirit when I hear a prophetic word. I can tell when the prophet is relating it correctly, when they shift into trying to explain things, or if they try to say something publicly when it is meant to be private.

And this is just from someone who hasn't been recognized by a church body and expected to use this gift for the benefit of others! IOW, my use of this gift is still in the developmental stage. I can't imagine how accurate it could be if I worked with it regularly, compared results with others like myself, or was ever trained by someone experienced in using the gift.

I cannot fathom how anybody could presume to know how to judge prophecy without it though! How can you tell if a word is meant to be private or public, based on scripture? How can you tell if someone is supposed to go forth as a missionary, if that is what the prophecy says? A simple "yes" or "no" in my spirit settles the question for me... which Bible verse do you use in this case? "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel"; or "Go home to your family and tell no one what the Lord has done for you"???

In the absence of anybody reliable with the gift, we must make a determination the best we can. God's wisdom will prevail. However, we need to recognize that He has given a solution, and that solution is a gift given to Man by the Spirit.

Tobias said:

I cannot fathom how anybody could presume to know how to judge prophecy without it though! How can you tell if a word is meant to be private or public, based on scripture? How can you tell if someone is supposed to go forth as a missionary, if that is what the prophecy says? A simple "yes" or "no" in my spirit settles the question for me... which Bible verse do you use in this case? "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel"; or "Go home to your family and tell no one what the Lord has done for you"???

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Going out into all the world would include going to your home FIRST.

A requirement of an elder is a godly home and obedient children. We shouldn't dare go anywhere preaching to anyone unless we take care of our own family first.

You want to know God's will in that matter, read the scriptures and clean up your own mess at home first before trying to go and clean up other people's messes.

Faulty said:

Going out into all the world would include going to your home FIRST.

A requirement of an elder is a godly home and obedient children. We shouldn't dare go anywhere preaching to anyone unless we take care of our own family first.

You want to know God's will in that matter, read the scriptures and clean up your own mess at home first before trying to go and clean up other people's messes.

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I'm sorry Faulty. I didn't mean to discredit the methods that have been used. Godly men of integrity will use whatever tools they have to discern the will of God.

Quite frankly, I'm looking for your help. You and anyone else who's well versed in the Bible. Am I reading this right? 1 Cor 14:29 tells me that there is another way to judge prophecy besides throwing it out in front of the Bible scholars and letting them have at it. Experience tells me that there very well may be a gift that works in a miraculous way to determine what is of God and what is not.

Once maybe about a year ago we had someone post a prophecy here, and many people went through ripping it to shreds. I remember, because what I felt inside bore witness with another "prophet", and after sharing our insights back and forth for a bit, the details became clearer and clearer.

I can see how this could really work. That when the other prophets judge, no one person gets a complete picture. But it's the unity of the saints that brings about the most accurate knowledge of God.


But I wonder, what do the scriptures say about judging prophecy? Have I taken one verse, and misinterpreted it, or missed taking into account what the rest of the Bible teaches?

I know my gift of discernment is not completely trustworthy on it's own. But I do rely upon it for my own purposes. People can talk all they want about Bob Jones being a "Senior Prophet" in the Church; but very little I've ever heard him say registers as Truth to me. I don't know how other people come to their conclusions about this stuff. Sometimes they are for things, and sometimes against. Meanwhile I got this annoying flashing light in my spirit that tells me what (I hope) God thinks about it; and it makes it really difficult to concentrate on the reasons people give for believing differently.

So normally I just bite my tongue and let those who think they know best do the judging. Then I ran into this verse, and realized that perhaps the real biblical way to judge prophecy is by relying upon those who have the gift of prophecy! And then suddenly everything made more sense.

But if I am missing something, please let me know. The last thing I want to do is go around teaching this and trying to apply it, if there is something obvious I'm missing.

Thank you Oscar.

Now that you mention it, I suppose the other extreme is even more common in the Church. All too often when Superman Prophet enters the doors, all those with good old fashioned integrity and biblical knowledge are pressured into silence. This is not right either.

We need to find a balance where we make room for the Gifts, acknowledging that are part of our connection to God; but also where we don't forsake godliness, integrity, and respect for those who are mature in their relationship with the Lord.

Oh boy don't wanna go their! The bible is the living word christ is the word as reference in revelation the holy spirit will never exult himself over christ he is god christ and spirit the god of all comfort they are one.

Every word they speak should be judged just like everyone else. They shouldn't be regarded as men/women to be more than they are.

To be sure, a deceiving spirit may enter into the mix, but we should receive prophets in love and be ready to forgive them if they make mistakes and speak wrongly.

Any believer might be enlisted to become a prophet at any point in their walk. Treat others as you would like to be treated in their place.

But I do have some serious doubts about some of the Prophets who are going around predicting future events and giving prophecies that make us think that God is speaking through them in an extra special way that He is not speaking to the rest of us.

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Judge it all, but if God revealed a great judgment on a region through a prophet, and it truly was a revelation from God and the rest of the body didn't receive it, I would consider that extra special and at least for the time being speaking "not like the rest".

~ Related to this I think is very important to never confuse the office of the prophet (A gift of Jesus) with the ministry gift of prophecy (a gift of the Holy Spirit).
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

Alive_Again said:

Any believer might be enlisted to become a prophet at any point in their walk. Treat others as you would like to be treated in their place.

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Interesting that you brought this up. This is exactly hat I feel happened with me! Just a few years ago, out of the blue, I felt God tell me that He was going to start to use me as a prophet. He said something about me having been around prophets and prophecy for so long, that it was an easy thing to move me into.

This is one of the reasons I think the parable of the talents applies to the gifts of the Spirit. I had been faithful in the gifts I had already been given, so God gave me another. Meanwhile though, since I've received this gift I have disrespected it, and it may be on hiatus for a time till I get my heart right.

Apparently I have developed a disrespect for prophets and prophecy. I have see so many abuses of the gift. I have heard so many wrong "words". But most of all, I like to be in control over what God says though me; which is possible with some of the other ministry gifts but not so much when giving a prophetic word.




Some well known prophets stand up and deliver words regularly that pertain the the nation, or to the times or seasons. But I can't ever remember feeling a witness from the Spirit that one of these words were correct. I can say prophecy works well for edification, and for assisting the saints to hear more clearly from God when it is difficult for them to do so all on their own.

Thank you Oscarr, that was very helpful!

It's probably true, that for all the years when I knew I wasn't a prophet, I didn't pay too close attention to the details of what it takes to be one. Then when it suddenly did apply to me, I naturally figured I knew everything there is to know already!


And yeah, getting my heart right has taken some time, but only because I wasn't aware anything was wrong. It's only after the fact that I realize I haven't been available for use in the prophetic for a while.

Apparently I'm past due to put some effort into prayer and study on the subject.

dude I think evil spirits are too stupid to do that kind of cool thing. liek their brains are nonexistant.

Oscarr said:

Seeing that the way in which clairvoyants operate is that they make their minds passive, gaze into crystal balls, or get impressions or hear voices while their minds are blank, and that they depend on sensory experiences for their information, is it understandable that when people see Pentecostals make their minds go passive and wait until some type of force takes them over and produces jerking, shaking, rolling, dog barking and other incoherent behaviour, they would draw a direct comparison and accuse them of practising psychic phenomena?

The main characteristcs of psychics and clairvoyants is that they put their faith in sensory experiences that convince them that they are in touch with the spirits. So, if certain Pentecostals act the same way and demonstrate that they are putting their faith in sensory experiences, then maybe they are getting their experiences from the same spirits.

I have just finished reading the book "Growing in the Prophetic" by Mike Bickell. Although Mike is fairly sound himself, he names two "prophets" which he spoke very highly of. They gave prophecies about a drought (which was disproved by the weather bureau stats for that area and time), earthquake (which came to pass), and other prophecies which were quite dramatic but seemed to have little relevance to the Gospel. Also these prophets said that William Branham was the "greatest prophet of the 20th Century", which is a concern because it transpired that he denied the Trinity and came up with all sorts of crazy doctrines. Also, there were doubts about Branham's angelic visitor who gave him guidance about his ministry, and many have doubted that the angel came from God, seeing that the fruit of his ministry was serious damage to the Pentecostal church at that time and caused a major division. Bickell took his guidance from John Wimber who is said to believe in "experience theology" which is another way of believing that sensory experiences are the evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving. The two prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones have both been discredited through immorality, and many believe that their prophecies are more clairvoyance than the true Holy Spirit prophetic.

The alternative is Truth theology, which has as its guiding principle, if it isn't clearly taught in the Word of God it is not true. The Word teaches that true prophetic ministry glorifies Christ and brings edification, exhortation and comfort to Christian believers. The prophecies that Cain and Jones brought served more to glorify themselves more than Christ. Therefore there is a reasonable doubt that the prophecies were from the Holy Spirit, and that those who believed them would have been seriously misled and actually deceived.

We activate the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in the written Word of God. I have already made myself clear about that in other threads where I have explained how the Holy Spirit works through faith.

I know that there is going to be some interesting comment about this, because quite a few are going to be offended and probably brand me a heretic and a "Pentecostal basher", but if I can get a few people in bondage to sensory experiences to think about what evangelical faith really is, then all this is fully justified.

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Oscarr said:

--- but if I can get a few people in bondage to sensory experiences to think about what evangelical faith really is, then all this is fully justified.

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I call that some sort of low level new age or charismatic techniques. The real experiences comes from the techniques of not having any sensory at all before they have that unusual event. In other words, Zen and Gong and many other ancient teachings teaches not to be bondage to sensorys. The real monks clear their minds to the point of having no sensory. Then you read the stories of them describing the meaning of the thunders of God and produces halos around their heads. In other words, they can't explain it using common human spoken languages.

Just a note for the OP: Mike Bickell came under Wimber's covering because of some of his more undisciplined teachings. However, looking back, many have said that time period in the Vineyard (Wimber's movement) was a mistake. I'm also somewhat confused as to how you separate Bickell, Cain, and Bob Jones, seeing as they are almost always lumped together (probably because Bickell endorses them), same as John Paul Jackson and a few others (collectively called the Kansas City Prophets).

Back on topic, Bickell can't really be said to be a major student of Wimber's. I'd also like to note that when Bob Jones did fall and was removed from ministry, he was ministering in the Vineyard. However, ever since, and ever after his "restoration" was completed, Jones has been banned by the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC) USA from ministering in any Vineyard churches.

Source: The Quest for the Radical Middle