The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

[Didaskomenos]

OK, so I misunderstood the question - I must have been taking the reference to origins too literally!

Blessings, Susana

See? Taking everything literally gets you into trouble!

 

[Bonhoffer]

Just to clarify, could you say However I also believe that God can do all things and may have done it the TE way, although the Biblical available in my opinion does not support this. In other words, do you hold Creationists to this same high standard?

Oh yes totally!!
God could have done it the TE or OEC way!

However this makes the reading of Genesis messy and has negative knock-on effect for theology in my opinion. I want to know why all those Dinosaurs and other animals were dying and suffering before the Fall.

However I do feel certain about a literal Adam and Eve. If you deny them then why not deny a literal Noah or a literal Moses etc etc?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Bonhoffer - you'd be shocked, probably, to know how uncertain I am about the historicity of Noah or Moses. As I've said before, when the book of the law was found in the Temple, I'm more than slightly suspicious that the ink was still wet.

The question I'd pose in response to "what about death before the fall" is "Did God create ecosystems?"

 

[Bonhoffer]

Bonhoffer - you'd be shocked, probably, to know how uncertain I am about the historicity of Noah or Moses. As I've said before, when the book of the law was found in the Temple, I'm more than slightly suspicious that the ink was still wet.

I'm not shocked knowing your liberalism. However I am relieved and glad for you that you do beleive in a historical Jesus. (Now PLEASE tell me that you do!!) Not only do you beleive in Him but you have put your faith in Him.
Thats all that counts!!

As much as I dislike liberal theology and churches that follow it, liberalism is useful as it could allow sceptics a way to come into a relationship with Jesus. However I dont think total liberalism is good for practicing beleivers. But that is up to you. I dont think you'll ever become a fundy until your in Heaven! Then you'll go "Wow!! Mary Magedline was a real person and not just a symbol of how the biggest sinners can be forgiven."

 

[Bonhoffer]

I am a number 6, but it is only a belief, I make no attempt to tell anyone I know for certain.

Understandibly anyone saying they knew for certain would sound arrogant. However what if someone did know for sure?

Christians are accused of being arrogant for saying they know Christianity is true. However as any born-again beleiver will understand we do know for certain because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit etc etc....

However we can always accept they could be right or could be wrong. They miught know for sure, but we dont!

 

[Gold Dragon]

I dont think you'll ever become a fundy until your in Heaven! Then you'll go "Wow!! Mary Magedline was a real person and not just a symbol of how the biggest sinners can be forgiven."

I'm sure all of us will be corrected in some way when we get to heaven and none of us will be fundys/liberals/evangelicals/etc because the terms will be meaningless when we are in the face of God.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

[Tangent]

Christians are accused of being arrogant for saying they know Christianity is true. However as any born-again beleiver will understand we do know for certain because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit etc etc....

It would be nice if this were so. I understand it is for some fortunate souls, but IME the vast majority of Christians have to work with and through their doubts.

Don't normalise your own experience!

 

[Vance]

Death before the Fall is not a problem at all if you see the death resulting from the Fall to be spiritual death. As I have set out elsewhere, I think it MUST be this, regardless of any evidence of pre-existing death, simply because to think of the Fall being the cause of physical death not only conflicts with the text, but it also has serious negative consequences for the value of Christ's redemptive sacrifice.

Another issue (getting to Karl's point) is that the physical death within the natural course of an overall ecosystem is not evil, and thus would still qualify for God seeing it as "good", even as "very good". It is sin that is evil, not physical death. There is no sin in a T Rex killing a stegasaurus. There WAS sin in man killing man, which happened after the Fall.

I am honestly not sure how, when or where God "breathed" upon man, whereupon Man had a soul and knowledge of good and evil, and thus *could* sin. And I am not sure if this transformation was a special event or events, as told in figurative language in Genesis 1 and 2 (which might even be fairly literal in this regard as Herev believes, although I do lean toward allegory here), or whether it was something built in to the process from the beginning and just "happened" at its appointed place and time.

But knowing these things are absolutely and positively unecessary for the Gospel message and salvation. It is interesting, though.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

[Further meaningless tangent]

There is no sin in a T Rex killing a stegasaurus.

But it might need a time machine

 

[Vance]

Yes, true, a triceratops, I should say!

And I should know this, since my five year old son is an expert and would have made the same correction. It is amazing hearing him say stuff like "well, that dinosaur lived during the late Cretaceous . . .".

 

[herev]

Understandibly anyone saying they knew for certain would sound arrogant. However what if someone did know for sure?

Well, we won't know till we get to heaven, will we?

 

[fishstix]

I guess I'd fit either 3, 4, or 5 - probably leaning most towards 3. But I don't really fit the stereotypes of YECs that many non-YECs seem to have of them. I don't insist that everything must be interpretted literally and only literally; and I believe that good science will ultimately lead towards God rather than away - so I think that ultimately good science and the Bible will end up with the same conclusions since God is the author of both the Bible and the universe - unfortunately people tend to make errors in interpretting and understanding both. Evolution just doesn't make sense to me - both from what I've read in the Bible and from what I've learned from science. It's fine with me if people want to disagree with me, as long as they're ok with me disagreeing with them

If I come across something where the Bible and science appear to say something different - obviously human error has been made somewhere, and I'll give the Bible the benefit of the doubt. That said, if I'm working on a scientific paper I'll just report whatever my results say - whether they agree with my hypothesis or not. Of course none of my research really has anything much to do with creation/evolution other than the fact that it involves dirt and plants

 

[Bonhoffer]

[Tangent]


It would be nice if this were so. I understand it is for some fortunate souls, but IME the vast majority of Christians have to work with and through their doubts.

Don't normalise your own experience!

I'm not normalising my own experience. Almost every Christian at my church and Christian Union is certain about Christianity being true. They have seen what I have seen and experienced. If Christianity isnt true then there is another Higher Being out there who lies or if it is our imagination then we ourselves must be God. When someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit I don't know how someone can doubt it. It would be like me doubting that I am white male.

I think there are two types of Christian or at least two stages of faith. It is only when someone has been Baptised by the Holy Spirit when someone is born-again. When I was a child I beleived strongly Christianity was true. I sometimes felt something spiritual and felt God was present. However when I was born-again last year what I felt was more than just spiritual.
I think God works with people in different ways.
I've talked to a lot of people who grew up in Christian families and they say things like I've always beleived, but I got saved or was born-again or accepted Christ when I was 12 etc etc......
Some people arent beleivers at all and are suddenly born-again.
Other times people become born-again much more slowly. They are christians and go to church for years, but when make the commitment to go in deeper with God.

We must remember that Jesus says that you can only enter His Kingdom if you are born-again. You must be born-again. Sadly that phrase 'born-again' christian often gets confused with right wing religious groups. You can be a born-again liberal christian too as long as you are born of God.

The claim that born-again Christians will know it is true is also biblical. In John it says "You will know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free".

I understand sincere people will have doubts. I do have doubts over whether God is good or not. However for me to doubt He exists would be like for you to doubt your wifes existence.

Sorry if it seems arrogant. But I'm into honesty! God does work differently with different people. God Bless!!

 

[Bonhoffer]

Well, we won't know till we get to heaven, will we?

You might be right, you might be wrong!

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

I think it has a lot to do with psychology. You're talking to someone here who sits up at night wondering whether America really exists. I've never seen it.

I was "born again" a very long time ago Bonhoffer. But everything I have experienced, reasoned, thought or felt then and since is always open to alternative possible explanations. Even you have an alternative: "If Christianity isnt true then there is another Higher Being out there who lies or if it is our imagination then we ourselves must be God". You cannot know for certain that this is not so.

You say "When someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit I don't know how someone can doubt it.", to which I say "Easy." I'd go as far as to say that most of the Christians I know are not 100% sure of the truth of it, or even the existence of God. Do you then go on to assume that none of them have received the Holy Spirit?

As you say, God works in different ways with different people. Is it possible that He works in you in a way that gives you certainty, but does not do so with everyone?

 

[~Mrs. A2J~]

I believe in #3

 

[fanatiquefou]

You say "When someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit I don't know how someone can doubt it.", to which I say "Easy." I'd go as far as to say that most of the Christians I know are not 100% sure of the truth of it, or even the existence of God. Do you then go on to assume that none of them have received the Holy Spirit?

I think that without doubt, faith would be pretty much useless. I mean, the whole point of having faith is that we somehow continue to believe even in the face of all those niggling doubts we have at three o'clock in the morning.

Oh, and I'm a 6, 7, or 8. Not quite sure. All I know is that I DO believe that God was involved.

 

[versastyle]

Well I just don't read/see anything at Exodus or prior as being literal or true. Rip the pages right out and guess what, I still got a bible.

I know Paul didn't have the same bible like we do today, so why does ours require a standard?

 

[fishstix]

Well I just don't read/see anything at Exodus or prior as being literal or true. Rip the pages right out and guess what, I still got a bible.

I know Paul didn't have the same bible like we do today, so why does ours require a standard?

I think the main difference between our Scripture and his is the fact that the New Testament hadn't yet been written down. Paul would have had access to Genesis.

 

[RVincent]

#4