A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

[Strong in Him]

just take 'sir' as inclusive, but sorry for using it.

That's ok.

 

[hislegacy]

The main question I've been asked by cradle Catholics is "Why do Baptists hate us?" which, I think, says something about their experience with relatives, friends, and an occasional stranger from some kind of Baptist like background.

I have NEVER heard a Baptist say they hated someone because they were catholic. Perhaps when one interlocutor in a conversation is unjustifiably convinced of the evil intent of the other it might seem that way.

I understand the OP is from a strictly Roman Catholic theology - however there are hundred of millions and most likely billions of Christians they will meet in heaven, who are not and have not ever been part of the Roman Catholic Church.

Will they be surprised? Embarrassed? How do you think they will feel on that day?

 

[hislegacy]

It's hypocritical

I know.
But I didn't start it - see posts #375, 381, 385.

Getting back to the OP: a person becomes a Christian, is saved and has eternal life - long before they even get to a church. They may even die before they can get to a church.
Church does not complete, nor add to, a person's salvation.

Quoted for Truth

 

[Strong in Him]

I have NEVER heard a Baptist say they hated someone because they were catholic.

I haven't heard it. But when I was a child, the Baptists in our area refused to sign an ecumenical Christmas card because the Catholics had done so.

Even back then, I thought that was appalling.

 

[hislegacy]

I haven't heard it. But when I was a child, the Baptists in our area refused to sign an ecumenical Christmas card because the Catholics had done so.

Even back then, I thought that was appalling.

That is at the least mean and petty, but doesn’t represent all Baptist.

We can’t just blanket condemn a whole group because of the actions of a few.

My dad was a seminarian and part of the Roman Catholic Church for decades. When I was ordained in the Assemblies of God, they called me apostate and my father was no longer able to serve in his church.

I don’t blame all Roman Catholics because of their abhorrent action against my dad, who never did anything wrong. Just the people who did it to him.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is at the least mean and petty, but doesn’t represent all Baptist.

Absolutely not; I didn't mean to give that impression. It may never have happened since, and, for all I know, that church may have later felt ashamed of their actions.
It was only that the conversation reminded me of the incident.

Sorry; forget I said anything.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I haven't heard it. But when I was a child, the Baptists in our area refused to sign an ecumenical Christmas card because the Catholics had done so.

Even back then, I thought that was appalling.

It is an example that is consistent with the comments that I have heard from cradle Catholics; I know a lady, aged 87, who was refused work because she was Catholic. The job was with a major retailer here. And in her younger adult years in the 1950s and early 1960s some job advertisements had "Catholics need not apply" in their text. So, whatever people may say now, the testimonies I have heard are credible. And I myself was shunned by friends from a local Assembly of God because I became a Catholic.

 

[Strong in Him]

It is an example that is consistent with the comments that I have heard from cradle Catholics; I know a lady, aged 87, who was refused work because she was Catholic. The job was with a major retailer here. And in her younger adult years in the 1950s and early 1960s some job advertisements had "Catholics need not apply" in their text. So, whatever people may say now, the testimonies I have heard are credible. And I myself was shunned by friends from a local Assembly of God because I became a Catholic.

Like I've always said; Catholics are our Christian brothers and sisters. The Catholic church is a Christian church, and I will always defend them against anyone who says they are not true believers/shouldn't be included/ are the anti Christ etc.

But I will also oppose any Catholic who claims that they, alone, are the true Church, only they have the truth and their clergy, alone, have authority.
And I could never join a Catholic church.

 

[JulieB67]

A Christian church is wherever we want it to be. Many churches were started by the apostles/disciples in the NT. And Priscilla and Aquila even held church in their home. As long as one "holds" to the traditions and teachings that are taught by Christ's ministry and the apostles/disciples than you are doing fine. You are in church. But that still doesn't have any effect on one's personal salvation.

Also the entire Word is good because it's the OT that leads us to the new because you'll never understand the end if you don't understand the beginning. And as Paul states many things happened back then for our ensample. We are also told to study to show ourselves approved.

And we certainly can't carry a "church" with us on Judgement Day. It will be us and us alone. We can't say "well, our church told us this or that". It's good to have teachers but again, we have to follow the teachings/traditions that "were" taught. And we have to back these teachers up. There's no need to add anything to what has already been taught. The disciples/apostles laid out Christ's ministry. They would not have left anything out that we needed to know. And Paul was inspired as well. If we follow their lead, than we are indeed part of that "true church" -the many membered body of Christ. And there's not one verse that states -going to church is part of the salvation process. We are told not to forsake the assembly of ourselves and to exhort one another. And even more so if we see the "day" approaching. But that doesn't even have to be in a "church" building. That could be a gathering together at home, etc. Assemby we know simply means meeting or gathering. As long as you're with like minded people holding to the teachings of Christ/the Word. But if there are no like minded people with you than that has no effect on your salvation.

II Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

We are to study ourselves and apply that to our lives.

Those that can't study for themselves of course need teachers. But again teachers that hold to the teachings and traditions that "were" taught.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And I could never join a Catholic church.

You ought to take into consideration the question of whether any local Catholic Church would willingly receive you as a member. After all, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), has a period of discernment in it, and during that period both the catechumen (or Candidate) and the Catechists and the local pastor discern if membership is possible and advisable.

 

[Strong in Him]

You ought to take into consideration the question of whether any local Catholic Church would willingly receive you as a member.

I don't need to consider it; it's not going to happen.

 

[JulieB67]

You ought to take into consideration the question of whether any local Catholic Church would willingly receive you as a member. After all, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), has a period of discernment in it, and during that period both the catechumen (or Candidate) and the Catechists and the local pastor discern if membership is possible and advisable.

This is not something the "true" church would do. Again, the true church is the many membered body that holds to the teachings brought forth by Christ and his apostles/disciples period. And what you posted is a far cry from that.

In the early days, the Lord would add to the church "daily" as would be saved and on the first day around 3 thousand were added. This stuff about a period of discernment should make anyone who is in the Word of God daily to sit up and take notice that something is wrong. The Lord adds to the church, not man. He's the heart knower and the one that discerns.

Again your traditions of men are voiding out the word of God.

 

[FredVB]

I don't ever see Jesus shown saying things that exclude any who would just come to him, that has to be the basis for faith to come to salvation, with repentance from life with sin to be restored to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Valletta]

This is not something the "true" church would do. Again, the true church is the many membered body that holds to the teachings brought forth by Christ and his apostles/disciples period. And what you posted is a far cry from that.

In the early days, the Lord would add to the church "daily" as would be saved and on the first day around 3 thousand were added. This stuff about a period of discernment should make anyone who is in the Word of God daily to sit up and take notice that something is wrong. The Lord adds to the church, not man. He's the heart knower and the one that discerns.

Again your traditions of men are voiding out the word of God.

Please study the Bible so that you may avoid such false accusations in the future:

The New Life in Christ​

Rom 12: 1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b] RSVCE

God gave us a mind so that we can come to understand what is good and what is not.

 

[JulieB67]

Please study the Bible so that you may avoid such false accusations in the future:

I posted nothing false. It's God, not man that adds to the church. We can discern a person's fruits, etc but only God can truly know what's in a person's heart/mind, not man and by doing so can add to the church. He knows who's truly repented or not.



Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

The very same day 3000 were added. No period of waiting, etc. In Hebrews it states "today" if we hear his voice...


Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Again, it's the Lord he added to the church as such should be saved. He knows.

Rom 12: 1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b] RSVCE

This is more about the sanctification process/maturing and not conforming to the world that all Christians should be about their entire lives- not about who to add to the church. Again, that's for the Lord to decide.

After all, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), has a period of discernment in it, and during that period both the catechumen (or Candidate) and the Catechists and the local pastor discern if membership is possible and advisable.

Where is the RCIA in scripture and by believing this are you stating you don't believe it's the Lord that adds to the church? And why would it take some years to get through the RCIA and when we have just read that those that received/believed the word (gladly) were baptized that same day and were added to the church? If Peter is your first Pope, why didn't he mention a period of RCIA? He told them to repent and be baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit and many did that "same" day. What changed? And why move away from Peter's words? Are they still not true today?

 

[Valletta]

I posted nothing false. It's God, not man that adds to the church. We can discern a person's fruits, etc but only God can truly know what's in a person's heart/mind, not man and by doing so can add to the church.



Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

The very same day 3000 were added. No period of waiting, etc. In Hebrews it states "today" if we hear his voice...


Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Again, it's the Lord he added to the church as such should be saved. He knows.






This is more about the sanctification process and not conforming to the world that all Christians should be about their entire lives- not about who to add to the church. Again, that's for the Lord to decide.

After all, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), has a period of discernment in it, and during that period both the catechumen (or Candidate) and the Catechists and the local pastor discern if membership is possible and advisable.

Where is the RCIA in scripture and by believing this you are stating you don't believe it's the Lord that adds to the church? And why would it take some years to get through the RCIA and when we have just read that those that received/believed the word (gladly) were baptized that same day and were added to the church? If Peter is your first Pope, why didn't he mention a period of RCIA? He told them to repent and be baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit. What changed? And why move away from Peter's words? Are they still not true today?

Colossians 1:28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. RSVCE

Your opinion that the Church should not religiously instruct a catechumen flies in the face of such religious instruction spoken of in the Bible. It illustrates that a personal interpretation of the Bible can end in just about anything. People have different experiences of conversion. Catechumens may or may not have already been baptized. Some may not really believe, perhaps they have a spouse who wants them to convert. The Bible warns us about not receiving the Eucharist in the proper state. The idea is not to add one to a Catholic count. Normally catehumens are brought into the Church on Holy Saturday. But if there are no impediments that person does not have to wait until Holy Saturday.

 

[JulieB67]

Colossians 1:28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. RSVCE

It illustrates that a personal interpretation of the Bible can end in just about anything.

The words -mature in Christ. Again, this is what everyone is trying to do- achieve that maturity so one can move past the milk. And yes, it's good to have teachers, especially early on to try and help to get to that point. But it has nothing to do with who is being added to the church. In our entire lives we are to strive to put the spirit over the flesh and the longer we can do that, the more mature in Christ we become. That will never and should not stop.

Context also matters, who is this letter addressed to?

Colossians 1:2 "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

These people are already in Christ, the church has already been set up in Colosse and he's talking to them. He is just helping them to continue to grow and mature in Christ. This is not about deciding who joins the body/church.

Colossians 1:3 "We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,"

Colossians 1:4 "Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,"

Colossians 1:5 "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

He also tells us that the body is the church which many of us believe-

Colossians 1:18 "And he is the Head of the body, the church: Who is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might
have the preeminence."

And continues to teach about staying grounded in the faith-

Colossians 1:22 "In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in His sight:"


Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

That goes for all of us.

The Bible warns us about not receiving the Eucharist in the proper state.

God is the only one that can know who's truly repented and who's taking the Lord's supper in a proper state. But again, nothing to do with adding the church.

And again, what has changed? Why is the church moved away from Peter's early teachings? Do you not believe Peter's words? And do you not agree that it's the Lord that adds to the church?

People have different experiences of conversion

This is true, and repentance can take some time, but it can also happen quickly as by the verses I posted.


"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

Not everyone that heard the word repented, only those that were "pricked in their hearts and gladly received the word. The Lord then added them -that very same day.

It's God that notes the repentance. That's why this is between God and man, not man and man. Man can lead someone to God but cannot exclude someone on their part.

flies in the face of such religious instruction spoken of in the Bible.

And yet, you won't answer my questions about Peter's teachings and the Lord adding to the church. I posted Peter's instructions (your first Pope supposedly) and yet you continue to post about Paul's teachings on maturing as a Christian.

 

[FredVB]

Maturity comes with growth, but it is not something we arrive at where we are finished with what is needed. With repentance, which all real believers who are in Christ have, there is ongoing growth for change when those in Christ are shown where it is needed.