Baptism is a work.

[Oneofhope]

Chapter and verse please.

1 Peter 3:21 NLT - "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

1 Peter 3:21 NLT - "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Quoting from a revision of the Living Bible....really? Gives "cherry picking" a new definition.

 

[Oneofhope]

Quoting from a revision of the Living Bible....really? Gives "cherry picking" a new definition.

If I can't quote from the NLT Bible, then I'd better not speak about the Bible at all. The NLT is vastly more accurate than my own attempts at understanding the truth. Yet you are above the NLT translation? Your understanding surpasses the understanding of the scholars who wrote it?

That's spectacular. All hail to "Ain't Zwinglian.

 

[Oneofhope]

1 Peter 3:21 KJV - "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . ."

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

If I can't quote from the NLT Bible, then I'd better not speak about the Bible at all. The NLT is vastly more accurate than my own attempts at understanding the truth. Yet you are above the NLT translation? Your understanding surpasses the understanding of the scholars who wrote it?

That's spectacular. All hail to "Ain't Zwinglian.

Wow....such emotionalism. I am out of this conversation.

 

[Oneofhope]

Wow....such emotionalism. I am out of this conversation.

The KJV says the exact same thing. Is the KJV garbage too?

 

[Strong in Him]

Chapter and verse please.

Why do you need chapter and verse for that?

The word Baptism means - or is from a word which means - submerge.
Romans 6 talks of us dying with Christ and being raised to new life. When a person is submerged in water, it is symbolic of dying to Christ. When a person is brought back up out of the water, it is symbolic of rising to new life.
Jews did not baptise. A baby boy was circumcised and made part of the covenant that God made with Abraham. In Bible times, when people sinned, they offered the sacrifices laid down by law. Unclean Gentiles who converted to Judaism were baptised, but I don't think anyone else was.

John the Baptist preached baptism in response to repentance; not "repent and offer the appropriate sacrifice", but "repent and be baptised."
Jesus told the 12 to go into all nations, make disciples and baptise, Matthew 28:19-20, and the Apostles taught that baptism should accompany repentance. In the early church, new believers gave a short testimony, or declaration of faith, before they were baptised.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

In the early church, new believers gave a short testimony, or declaration of faith, before they were baptised.

I am not asking what the early church believed or didn't believe. This is a sola scriptura question: Where in Scripture do new believers give a short testimony or a declaration of faith before baptized. Please chapter and verse.

it is symbolic of dying to Christ

Yes, Yes, Yes....another baptism is a "symbol" interpretation. The Greek word for symbol is symbolia and the word is not found in the NT or the LXX. I don't find baptism as symbolic of anything nor does Scripture say it is symbolic.

 

[Oneofhope]

Why do you need chapter and verse for that?

The word Baptism means - or is from a word which means - submerge.
Romans 6 talks of us dying with Christ and being raised to new life. When a person is submerged in water, it is symbolic of dying to Christ. When a person is brought back up out of the water, it is symbolic of rising to new life.
Jews did not baptise. A baby boy was circumcised and made part of the covenant that God made with Abraham. In Bible times, when people sinned, they offered the sacrifices laid down by law. Unclean Gentiles who converted to Judaism were baptised, but I don't think anyone else was.

John the Baptist preached baptism in response to repentance; not "repent and offer the appropriate sacrifice", but "repent and be baptised."
Jesus told the 12 to go into all nations, make disciples and baptise, Matthew 28:19-20, and the Apostles taught that baptism should accompany repentance. In the early church, new believers gave a short testimony, or declaration of faith, before they were baptised.

Beautiful . . .

 

[Strong in Him]

I am not asking what the early church believed or didn't believe. This is a sola scriptura question: Where in Scripture do new believers give a short testimony or a declaration of faith before baptized. Please chapter and verse.

And again, why do you need chapter and verse?

As I said, people were baptised by John after confessing their sins, Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:4. The Apostles also taught "repent and be baptised". So it seems pretty clear that baptism - which wasn't something which Jews normally did - was to accompany repentance. It was a new thing in the NT - Jews offered sacrifices to atone for their sin.
The first people to be baptised would not have confessed their faith in Jesus the Messiah; they didn't yet know him. But they confessed their sins and admitted they had sinned against God.

Yes, Yes, Yes....another baptism is a "symbol" interpretation. The Greek word for symbol is symbolia and the word is not found in the NT or the LXX. I don't find baptism as symbolic of anything nor does Scripture say it is symbolic.

Romans 6:3 says that we were baptised into Christ, baptised into his death. The Greek word for baptise means "to plunge, dip, purify"; it is used in that verse.
Rom 6:4 says that we were buried with Christ, through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised, we too may have new life.

True, it doesn't say "this is symbolism" - but how else would you understand those verses?
Were you literally plunged into Christ's death, literally buried and then literally dug up again and raised to new life? I doubt it. So can you not see that being lowered, or plunged, into the waters of baptism then being brought up again out of the waters is an image of dying to sin and being raised to new life?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Romans 6:3 says that we were baptised into Christ, baptised into his death. The Greek word for baptise means "to plunge, dip, purify"; it is used in that verse.
Rom 6:4 says that we were buried with Christ, through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised, we too may have new life.

True, it doesn't say "this is symbolism" - but how else would you understand those verses?
Were you literally plunged into Christ's death, literally buried and then literally dug up again and raised to new life? I doubt it. So can you not see that being lowered, or plunged, into the waters of baptism then being brought up again out of the waters is an image of dying to sin and being raised to new life?

Jesus was not buried in the ground and immersed with dirt. The women in the morning didn’t go to the tomb of Jesus with shovels, picks, and a wheel barrow to dig up the body of Jesus. This is not a picture of immersion baptism. When credo’s state this is a picture of immersion baptism, they are confusing modern burial practices with ancient burial practices. “To bury” refers to any process in which we place human remains in their final resting place.

In the ancient middle east, it was common for prominent people to be buried in a tomb. The Egyptian pharaohs were buried in their pyramids. Abraham was buried in a cave. King David was buried in a tomb in Jerusalem. John’s the Baptist body was “buried” in a tomb. The raising of Lazarus was from a tomb. And Jesus was buried a tomb.

A distinction must be made between what baptism accomplishes (Romans 6) and how baptism is to be administered (All the texts in the Book of Acts showing examples of baptism). Romans 6 is not a text on how to administer baptism.

The plain text rule is we are united with Christ death, burial, crucifixion, and resurrection in each of our baptisms. This is God’s action to us. It is the benefit that God gives us in baptism and gives us the result of all of Christ’s work ….the forgiveness of sins. I don’t fully understand all of what Paul is communicating here. Scripture, being a supernatural document, calls us to believe difficult things. Romans 6 is one of them.

United with Christ is the result of baptism, not the mode of it. How water is applied to the human body is not specifically addressed anywhere in Romans 6. But we many examples elsewhere.

Credobaptists try to make baptism into some kind of fake or make-believe parable of Christ’s death and resurrection in the of believers. No parable here in Romans 6.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

As I said, people were baptised by John after confessing their sins, Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:4. The Apostles also taught "repent and be baptised". So it seems pretty clear that baptism - which wasn't something which Jews normally did - was to accompany repentance. It was a new thing in the NT - Jews offered sacrifices to atone for their sin.
The first people to be baptised would not have confessed their faith in Jesus the Messiah; they didn't yet know him. But they confessed their sins and admitted they had sinned against God.

Since when is repentance some kind of act for the audience?

 

[Oneofhope]

And again, why do you need chapter and verse?

Luke 8:10 NLT - "He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they look, they won't really see. When they hear, they won't understand."

 

[Strong in Him]

Since when is repentance some kind of act for the audience?

I never said it was - you seem to have read that into it.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus was not buried in the ground and immersed with dirt. The women in the morning didn’t go to the tomb of Jesus with shovels, picks, and a wheel barrow to dig up the body of Jesus. This is not a picture of immersion baptism. When credo’s state this is a picture of immersion baptism, they are confusing modern burial practices with ancient burial practices. “To bury” refers to any process in which we place human remains in their final resting place.

I didn't say it was.
I said that Romans 6 talks of us being baptised into Christ's death. The Greek word for baptism, which is used here, means to plunge, wash or dip.
I asked you how you understand Romans 6:3-4?
It seems to me that either we take it literally and believe that we are baptised - plunged - into Christ's death and burial. OR that we understand it to be an illustration, metaphor. (Yes, I used the word 'symbol; I should have said 'illustration'.)
If you are rejecting the illustration/symbol/imagery of Romans 6:3-4, the only way to read it, as far as I see, is literally. Which would mean literal burial etc.

It is not a parable. A parable is a story; this is a statement of fact. When we were baptised we were baptised into Christ, into his death and buried through baptism.
How do you understand those words?

 

[Derf]

Baptism is a Work:

According to the Bible, I believe it implies that baptism is a work.
I say this because there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is faith and not a work (Or a work of faith).
In other words, there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is what unites you to Christ but it is not a work in order to not contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.

Thus, these Christian groups will say they believe in “faith + works“ but they are redefining “water baptism” in an unbiblical way by saying it is faith (when in reality it is a work or work of faith). While water baptism is a part of the faith, it would not be a work that is any less of a work from other works of faith.

First, we see circumcision is a type of baptism.
A believer would first be circumcised in the Old Testament to show they were a Jew.
In the New Covenant, we believers are baptized to let others know we identify with the burial of Christ and we are Christian.

Colossians 2:11-12 says,

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."​

​

So in this above passage we see the spiritual inward working God does upon our heart when we are born again spiritually by God and it is paralleled by the outward rituals of circumcision and baptism. Note: We do not have to be circumcised. That is OT. But the point here is that God’s Word compares these two rituals as describing what happens to our inward man when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and the gospel message.

Second, according to Galatians 2, and Romans 4, it implies that circumcision is a work.

Galatians 2:3-4

“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”​

​

As we can see above here, Paul is expressing his concern about those who are wrongfully trying to compel believers to be circumcised. We learn more about this in Acts 15 in that certain Jews were trying to get Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24).

Then Paul starts eventually starts to talk about how we cannot be justified by the works of the Law in verses 15-16.

Galatians 2:15-16

“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."​

​

So Galatians 2 teaches that circumcision is a part of the works of the Law (Which is a ceremony we do not have to keep).

​

Romans 5:2 says we have access to God’s grace through faith.
Taking this verse into account, Romans 4:3-5 would then be saying that we are saved initially by faith or a belief alone.

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."​

Romans 4:1-6 it mentions the word “works” 4 times. It talks about how we are not justified by works in this process of being initially saved.

The point is made in Romans 4:9-12 using circumcision involving Abraham. Abraham first believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness before he was circumcised. This circumcision is a work because Paul was just talking about how we are not justified by works in Romans 4:1-6.

So the point here is that if the Bible is teaching that circumcision is a work (and I believe I have demonstrated that above), then baptism is also a work because one can clearly see the connection between circumcision and baptism between the two different covenants.

Three, some try to get around this and say that baptism is a work of God and it is not a work you do. Well, it is a ritual that does involve some effort on your part.
You do have to…

#1. Find the right body of faithful believers (Which is difficult in these last days).​

#2. Ask if they will baptize you and set a date to do so.​

#3. Show up on the date and go down into the body of water.​

#4. Relax your body so that they can hold you so as to dunk.​

#5. Hold your breathe as they submerge you.​

#6. Change out your clothes because they are wet.​

​

Other believers who baptize you, have to…

​

#1. Agree to baptize you.​

#2. Try to gather other witnesses if possible.​

#3. Find a proper and legal place to baptize.​

#4. Show up at the date.​

#5. Go down into the water with you.​

#6. Help to hold you so as to submerge you in the water,​

#7. Declare that they are baptizing you in the name of Jesus (Which is the embodiment of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - Colossians 2:9).​

#8. Change clothes because they are wet.​

Think. It is work if a swimming instructor trains somebody how to swim and or hold their breath under water.
Some say it is a work, and yet they say God declares that this work is faith and then they say other things are works and not faith.
However, words mean things in this life and God is not the author of confusion and nor does His Word contradict itself.

My position on water baptism:

Water baptism is a work of faith. Water baptism is an outward ritual that a Christian will do at some point in their life that signifies the inward change when they believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:-14, and they call upon the Lord Jesus (seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him) (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). Ideally, baptism happens after a person is initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works, although we do see cases in the Bible where initial faith and baptism can happen simultaneously. If possible, baptism I believe should be done after a person immediately accepts the gospel and sought forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus Christ. Water baptism is not done to get initially saved and while it is required as a part of the faith, I do not believe water baptism is a salvation issue (See: 1 Peter 3:21, 1 Corinthians 1:17). Water baptism is a symbol or likeness of Christ’s death (Romans 6:5). Only the spiritual baptism in being born again will help us to crucify the affections and lusts and to live as a new person in Christ (Being raised with Him - see Colossians 2:12).

Of course baptism is a work. A work that is intended to manifest one's faith.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Were you literally plunged into Christ's death, literally buried and then literally dug up again and raised to new life? I doubt it.

I didn't say it was.

If you don't think Romans 6 is a PICTURE of immersion baptism, then why did you say I would be literally dug up? (your words) Immersionists will find dunking in the most bizarre places.

In the Scripture, to bury doesn't have to always mean immersion in dirt. Being entombed and buried in the ground can be synonyms as in the case of Jesus.

We Americans interchange the words “buried” and “tomb” frequently. Remember Gaucho Marx famous question: Who was buried in Grant’s Tomb? Grant and his wife!

Immersion only baptism is an argument by conjecture, conclusive only to those who already presuppose “baptism always means immersion in the Bible,” It is a belief in search of a text.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you don't think Romans 6 is a PICTURE of immersion baptism, then why did you say I would be literally dug up? (your words)

I didn't.
Read what I did say.

Were you literally plunged into Christ's death, literally buried and then literally dug up again and raised to new life? I doubt it.

I said that there were only 2 ways of reading that passage, in my view: either it's literal statement, or an illustration/image, of what happens in baptism.
If literal, then we were actually immersed into Christ, buried with him then raised up again. If an illustration, then it means that going under the waters in baptism and being brought out again is an image of dying to sin and rising to new life.

 

[ViaCrucis]

1 Peter 3:21 NLT - "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The Greek word here, ἐπερώτημα (eperotema), is an interesting word. It indicates longing, as in the longing for an answer, or an appeal--it can mean a leading question--the kind of question with an obvious answer or conclusion. It can also mean answer, or pledge, or promise.

1 Peter 3:21 is saying that baptism is the antitype of the flood/ark (1 Peter 3:20), which saves us; the way that baptism saves isn't about water washing dirt off our skin (οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου) but instead God's answer of a good conscience by Jesus Christ's resurrection. We come to the baptismal font, to receive what God has to give us there, ans what God gives us is a good conscience, we are converted, put into a new relationship with God, the removal of our guilt before God on account of sin and receiving God's good--because there is forgiveness here--by, on account of, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ's resurrection, His defeating of death, has undone death, by His cross and empty tomb He has reconciled us to the Father. And in Baptism we receive this good, this newness, so that we are no longer guilt-ridden sinners condemned but renewed and converted people, born again of God (see John 3:3-5 and Titus 3:5), and thus forgiven, justified, reconciled.

We came to the waters of baptism full of sin and guilt and condemnation; but here God--by His own good will and grace--washes us clean and renews us, heals us, saves us, regenerates us freely out of His kindness--because of what Christ has done for us.

There is nothing in 1 Peter 3:21 that presents baptism as some mere religious ritual that we do in order to earn something from God, or that we do in order to symbolically demonstrate this or that. Baptism isn't a symbol, it is the substantive reality of God's grace in action. God is doing something here, and what He is doing is nothing less than saving us, giving us something new, changing who we are and what we are in relation to Himself. Because here, as we learn elsewhere, we are clothed with the very Person and work of Jesus Christ, having died with Him, buried with Him, and now alive with Him by receiving His resurrection life. All by God's grace, received entirely through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I didn't.
Read what I did say.

I said that there were only 2 ways of reading that passage, in my view: either it's literal statement, or an illustration/image, of what happens in baptism.
If literal, then we were actually immersed into Christ, buried with him then raised up again. If an illustration, then it means that going under the waters in baptism and being brought out again is an image of dying to sin and rising to new life.

A third option: It is a transcendent reality--in baptism we have very much, we might even say literally, right there with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. We might say it is hyper-literal, more than literal. When Christ died, I was there in Him, and thus I died with Christ. My death is pretty meaningless in the grand scope of everything; but Christ's death is of cosmic importance--for His death is, in fact, the death of death itself. And so to die with Christ means I have shared in that death of His--He partakes of my unrighteous death but gives Me His righteous death; likewise He partook of my mortal, weak, debased life by becoming what I am but, by His resurrection He takes all that is human and raises it up from shame to glory and I, by receiving that life of His, partake in what He has and is. This happens in baptism. So much so that in the Sacrament something transcends the moment of time, Christ's death, Christ's resurrected life, all that He is is united to me and I to Him in a mystical union. So that now in Christ I am presented before the Father holy, guiltless, and blameless as Christ is--I stand justified before God, entirely by God's grace and apart from my works, solely and entirely in and by Christ alone.

And this which I receive here and now, through faith, is not merely for here and now (1 Corinthians 15:17-19, special emphasis on verse 19) but rather this which we receive as gift here, received through faith, shall bear fruit and spring forth when I, too, shall be raised up when Christ returns. For "each in their own order" Christ the firstfruits, and then those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:23); for in this hope we were saved (Romans 8:23-25).

So in Baptism I have become united to Christ, justified, placed into a new relationship with God--as a child, adopted, an heir with Christ--that I should receive the full benefit and inheritance that belongs to Christ. That even as Christ was raised from the dead, so too now in Christ I have new life, but not in this life only, but that at His coming again I will--like Him--have even my flesh raised up and glorified. Sown in dishonor and raised in honor; for Christ will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body.

So Baptism creates in us something that shall burst forth from the grave on the Final Day. Eternal Life.

-CryptoLutheran