The Indwelling-Gift of the Holy Spirit

HTacianas

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No Scripture anywhere teaches that Ananias had a special gift that imparted the Gift of the Holy Spirit. That idea is a mere assumption.

I have no problem with the doctrine of the laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Spirit. However, Scripture affirms that the Gift of the Holy Spirit may come outside of that methodology.

Embracing all the evidence written in Scripture, it follows by necessary inference:

1. The Gift of the Holy Spirit may be received by laying on hands.
2. The Gift of the Holy Spirit may be received without the laying on of hands.
3. The Gift of the Holy Spirit may be received through the ministry of the Apostles.
4. The Gift of the Holy Spirit may be received without the presence of Apostles.

The men of Samaria did not receive the Holy Spirit even after being baptized. The apostles had to lay hands on them. And again, the writer to the Hebrews numbered the laying on of hands as an essential of Christ. So what you're telling isn't "biblical".
 
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HTacianas

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Some undoubtedly believe that to be the case. However, this cannot be verified if one takes the actual historical evidence. Moreover, not only does Paul not write a greeting at the beginning of his epistle, including Peter as an addressee, he does not include Peter's name in the list of those he desires to have greeted in Rome in Romans 16. The Church probably began by those who went back to Rome to share their experience on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:10)

The actual historical evidence places Peter in Rome early on. But nowhere does it say that some random person carried the Church back to Rome after Pentecost.
 
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Hermeneutico

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The expression "the Gift of the Holy Spirit (την δωρεαν του αγιου πνευματος) mentioned in Acts 2:38 is in the genitive case. Greek grammar books list more than a dozen uses for the genitive (J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, Eerdmans, 1963, pp. 28-31). Context, either in its narrower or broader sense, will determine the thrust of the genitive case in a given circumstance.

Almost every Greek authority known to this writer contends that the genitive of Acts 2:38 is epexegetical (appositional), i.e., the Holy Spirit is the gift (Cf. the lexicons of Arndt & Gingrich, 209; Thayer, 161; Robinson, 196; also the works of Kittel, II, 167; Vine, 147; Robertson, Word Pictures, III, 36; Moulton, Howard, Turner, Grammar, III, 214; Expositor's Greek Testament II, 91. These sources are not cited as theological experts but as language authorities.

That "the gift of the Holy Spirit" can be the Spirit himself is also demonstrated by a comparison of Acts 10:45 with 10:47.

A very detailed study on the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is called "A Resource and Reference Volume on the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.," by Goebel Music.
 
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Hermeneutico

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The men of Samaria did not receive the Holy Spirit even after being baptized. The apostles had to lay hands on them. And again, the writer to the Hebrews numbered the laying on of hands as an essential of Christ. So what you're telling isn't "biblical".

I do not disagree with the biblical doctrine about the laying on of hands. You should understand that Scripture does not contradict Scripture. O
 
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Hermeneutico

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The actual historical evidence places Peter in Rome early on. But nowhere does it say that some random person carried the Church back to Rome after Pentecost.

No, it does not. I have read everything on the topic, including all the church fathers, etc... I will rely upon actual evidence, not mere contradictory statements. There are always those who attempt to prove things because of theological agendas, but I must rely on facts.
 
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HTacianas

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I do not disagree with the biblical doctrine about the laying on of hands. You should understand that Scripture does not contradict Scripture. O

Scripture does not contradict scripture.
 
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HTacianas

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No, it does not. I have read everything on the topic, including all the church fathers, etc... I will rely upon actual evidence, not mere contradictory statements. There are always those who attempt to prove things because of theological agendas, but I must rely on facts.

If you gone to those lengths I'm sure you are familiar with Against Heresies by Irenaeus.
 
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tonychanyt

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The expression "the Gift of the Holy Spirit (την δωρεαν του αγιου πνευματος) mentioned in Acts 2:38 is in the genitive case. Greek grammar books list more than a dozen uses for the genitive (J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, Eerdmans, 1963, pp. 28-31). Context, either in its narrower or broader sense, will determine the thrust of the genitive case in a given circumstance.

Almost every Greek authority known to this writer contends that the genitive of Acts 2:38 is epexegetical (appositional), i.e., the Holy Spirit is the gift (Cf. the lexicons of Arndt & Gingrich, 209; Thayer, 161; Robinson, 196; also the works of Kittel, II, 167; Vine, 147; Robertson, Word Pictures, III, 36; Moulton, Howard, Turner, Grammar, III, 214; Expositor's Greek Testament II, 91. These sources are not cited as theological experts but as language authorities.

That "the gift of the Holy Spirit" can be the Spirit himself is also demonstrated by a comparison of Acts 10:45 with 10:47.

A very detailed study on the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is called "A Resource and Reference Volume on the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.," by Goebel Music.
Let proposition A1 = Each Spirit-Filled Christian has all the Spirit.

None of the above claims A1 as you have claimed.
 
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Hermeneutico

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Let proposition A1 = Each Spirit-Filled Christian has all the Spirit.

None of the above claims A1 as you have claimed.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He is not parsed out in measures. So, yes, the claim is factually true unless one makes the Holy Spirit less than a person.
 
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Hermeneutico

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Define person.

For my answer, I defer to the classic Trinitarian definitions:

The classic definition of "Person" is that given by Boethius in De persona et duabus naturis: an individual substance of a rational nature).

St. Thomas Aquinas explained the preceding definition in terms that practically constitute a new definition: a substance, complete, subsisting per se, existing apart from others (Summa Theologica, III, Q. xvi, a. 12, ad 2um).

Regarding the persons of the Blessed Trinity, for the constitution of a person, it is required that a reality be subsistent and absolutely distinct. The three Divine realities are relations, each identified with the Divine Essence. A finite relation has reality only in so far as it is an accident; it has the reality of inherence. The Divine relations, however, are in the nature not by inherence but by identity. The reality they have, therefore, is not that of an accident, but that of a subsistence. They are one with ipsum esse subsistens (Subsistent Act of Existing Itself).
 
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tonychanyt

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For my answer, I defer to the classic Trinitarian definitions:

The classic definition of "Person" is that given by Boethius in De persona et duabus naturis: an individual substance of a rational nature).

St. Thomas Aquinas explained the preceding definition in terms that practically constitute a new definition: a substance, complete, subsisting per se, existing apart from others (Summa Theologica, III, Q. xvi, a. 12, ad 2um).

Regarding the persons of the Blessed Trinity, for the constitution of a person, it is required that a reality be subsistent and absolutely distinct. The three Divine realities are relations, each identified with the Divine Essence. A finite relation has reality only in so far as it is an accident; it has the reality of inherence. The Divine relations, however, are in the nature not by inherence but by identity. The reality they have, therefore, is not that of an accident, but that of a subsistence. They are one with ipsum esse subsistens (Subsistent Act of Existing Itself).
Is a fetus a person according to this?
 
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tonychanyt

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Too funny. That is an entirely different topic, but a good question.
I prefer to keep the subject of the OP here.
So do I. My point is that they do not have an operational definition of person. Further, they conflate anthropomorphism.

See The Holy Spirit is a witness and follow up there :)
 
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Hermeneutico

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This is also false, however, I await you substantiating your claims. Should I hold my breath?

Are you still holding your breath? Here is the next Church Father that taught that the Gift of the Holy Spirit is received AFTER believing or water baptism.

Tertullian (ca. 155-225)

Tertullian writes of how man now "receives again that Spirit of God," which had been lost through sin, but immediately adds:

"NOT that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed and PREPARED FOR the Holy Spirit" (chaps. 5 and 6).

Then, seeing an analogy between John the Baptist and the angel, Tertullian adds:

"Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, 'make the paths straight' for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, obtains" (chap. 6).

Therefore, it is easy to see that for Tertullian, one needs to be cleansed of their sins first before receiving one can receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Tertullian adds the idea from the Old Testament, anointing oil:

"After this, when we have issued from the font [water baptism], we are thoroughly anointed with a blessed unction" (chap. 7)…. then… "In the next place the hand is (laid upon us), invoking and inviting the Holy Spirit through benediction," and… "Then, over our cleansed and blessed bodies willingly descends from heaven that Holiest Spirit." Thereby "to our flesh as it emerges from the font, after its old sins, flies the dove of the Spirit, bring the peace of God" (chap. 8).

Thus, in his treatise on Baptism, it is evident that Tertullian distinguishes between the activity of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and the reception of the Spirit through the subsequent laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit is active in Baptism, sanctifying the waters and cleansing body and soul, but it is only after both unction and the laying on of hands that the Spirit is obtained. Tertullian views the whole sequence of acts—Baptism, unction, imposition of hands—as constituting a progressive movement.

Regarding this latter point, we might reference Tertullian's treatise, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, wherein stressing the unity of soul and body, he shows a movement beginning in Baptism and climaxing with the Eucharist.

"The flesh indeed is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul might be cleansed; the flesh is anointed, that the soul may be consecrated; the flesh is signed (with the cross) that the soul too may be fortified; the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands that the soul may also be illuminated by the Spirit [by reception of the Holy Spirit]; the flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ that the soul likewise may fatten on its God" (chap. 8).

There is, for Tertullian, clearly a sequence, however differently worded, that, begun in Baptism, includes the reception or illumination of the Spirit.

Finally, regarding the gifts of the Spirit, Tertullian views asking for them as the climax to all that he has described in his On Baptism. Several chapters after those on Baptism, anointing, and laying on of hands, Tertullian concludes:

"Therefore, blessed ones, whom the grace of God awaits, when you ascend from that most sacred font of your new birth [water baptism], and spread your hands [in prayer] for the first time in the house of your mother [the church], together with your brethren, ask from the Father, ask from the Lord, that His own specialties of grace and distributions of gifts may be supplied you [through receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit]. 'Ask' saith He, 'and ye shall receive'" (chap. 20).

Tertullian himself was not unaware of the presence of gifts of the Spirit at first. In his treatise, Against Marcion, one argument Tertullian uses is that Marcion cannot exhibit such gifts:

"Let Marcion exhibit, as gifts of his God, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer—only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him... [but he came to experience many spiritual gifts later] …Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty" (Bk. 5, 8).

Blessings... I hope I am not causing you to hyper-ventilate... *smile*
 
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concretecamper

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Are you still holding your breath? Here is the next Church Father that taught that the Gift of the Holy Spirit is received AFTER believing or water baptism.

Tertullian (ca. 155-225)

Tertullian writes of how man now "receives again that Spirit of God," which had been lost through sin, but immediately adds:

"NOT that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed and PREPARED FOR the Holy Spirit" (chaps. 5 and 6).

Then, seeing an analogy between John the Baptist and the angel, Tertullian adds:

"Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, 'make the paths straight' for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, obtains" (chap. 6).

Therefore, it is easy to see that for Tertullian, one needs to be cleansed of their sins first before receiving one can receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Tertullian adds the idea from the Old Testament, anointing oil:

"After this, when we have issued from the font [water baptism], we are thoroughly anointed with a blessed unction" (chap. 7)…. then… "In the next place the hand is (laid upon us), invoking and inviting the Holy Spirit through benediction," and… "Then, over our cleansed and blessed bodies willingly descends from heaven that Holiest Spirit." Thereby "to our flesh as it emerges from the font, after its old sins, flies the dove of the Spirit, bring the peace of God" (chap. 8).

Thus, in his treatise on Baptism, it is evident that Tertullian distinguishes between the activity of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and the reception of the Spirit through the subsequent laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit is active in Baptism, sanctifying the waters and cleansing body and soul, but it is only after both unction and the laying on of hands that the Spirit is obtained. Tertullian views the whole sequence of acts—Baptism, unction, imposition of hands—as constituting a progressive movement.

Regarding this latter point, we might reference Tertullian's treatise, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, wherein stressing the unity of soul and body, he shows a movement beginning in Baptism and climaxing with the Eucharist.

"The flesh indeed is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul might be cleansed; the flesh is anointed, that the soul may be consecrated; the flesh is signed (with the cross) that the soul too may be fortified; the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands that the soul may also be illuminated by the Spirit [by reception of the Holy Spirit]; the flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ that the soul likewise may fatten on its God" (chap. 8).

There is, for Tertullian, clearly a sequence, however differently worded, that, begun in Baptism, includes the reception or illumination of the Spirit.

Finally, regarding the gifts of the Spirit, Tertullian views asking for them as the climax to all that he has described in his On Baptism. Several chapters after those on Baptism, anointing, and laying on of hands, Tertullian concludes:

"Therefore, blessed ones, whom the grace of God awaits, when you ascend from that most sacred font of your new birth [water baptism], and spread your hands [in prayer] for the first time in the house of your mother [the church], together with your brethren, ask from the Father, ask from the Lord, that His own specialties of grace and distributions of gifts may be supplied you [through receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit]. 'Ask' saith He, 'and ye shall receive'" (chap. 20).

Tertullian himself was not unaware of the presence of gifts of the Spirit at first. In his treatise, Against Marcion, one argument Tertullian uses is that Marcion cannot exhibit such gifts:

"Let Marcion exhibit, as gifts of his God, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer—only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him... [but he came to experience many spiritual gifts later] …Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty" (Bk. 5, 8).

Blessings... I hope I am not causing you to hyper-ventilate... *smile*
Yes, still holding my breathe. So you copy and paste from a book with a pentecostal agenda. That's ok, that's what we do. You quote only 1 Church Father. I don't find the explanations of Tertullian's writings that convincing. Had to breathe, couldn't hold it that long
 
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Hermeneutico

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As for the claim in your OP that this was the view up until the Reformation, you'll need to back that one up a bit. The Pentecostal belief that baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience, a receiving of the Spirit, after regeneration isn't the historic belief of the Christian Church, prior nor after the Reformation.

-CryptoLutheran

Hey Brother,

Here is another piece of evidence supporting my claim from a Church Father.
Are you still holding your breath? Here is the next Church Father that taught that the Gift of the Holy Spirit is received AFTER believing or water baptism.
Tertullian (ca. 155-225)

Tertullian writes of how man now "receives again that Spirit of God," which had been lost through sin, but immediately adds:

"NOT that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed and PREPARED FOR the Holy Spirit" (chaps. 5 and 6).

Then, seeing an analogy between John the Baptist and the angel, Tertullian adds:

"Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, 'make the paths straight' for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, obtains" (chap. 6).

Therefore, it is easy to see that for Tertullian, one needs to be cleansed of their sins first before receiving one can receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Tertullian adds the idea from the Old Testament, anointing oil:

"After this, when we have issued from the font [water baptism], we are thoroughly anointed with a blessed unction" (chap. 7)…. then… "In the next place the hand is (laid upon us), invoking and inviting the Holy Spirit through benediction," and… "Then, over our cleansed and blessed bodies willingly descends from heaven that Holiest Spirit." Thereby "to our flesh as it emerges from the font, after its old sins, flies the dove of the Spirit, bring the peace of God" (chap. 8).

Thus, in his treatise on Baptism, it is evident that Tertullian distinguishes between the activity of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and the reception of the Spirit through the subsequent laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit is active in Baptism, sanctifying the waters and cleansing body and soul, but it is only after both unction and the laying on of hands that the Spirit is obtained. Tertullian views the whole sequence of acts—Baptism, unction, imposition of hands—as constituting a progressive movement.

Regarding this latter point, we might reference Tertullian's treatise, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, wherein stressing the unity of soul and body, he shows a movement beginning in Baptism and climaxing with the Eucharist.

"The flesh indeed is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul might be cleansed; the flesh is anointed, that the soul may be consecrated; the flesh is signed (with the cross) that the soul too may be fortified; the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands that the soul may also be illuminated by the Spirit [by reception of the Holy Spirit]; the flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ that the soul likewise may fatten on its God" (chap. 8).

There is, for Tertullian, clearly a sequence, however differently worded, that, begun in Baptism, includes the reception or illumination of the Spirit.

Finally, regarding the gifts of the Spirit, Tertullian views asking for them as the climax to all that he has described in his On Baptism. Several chapters after those on Baptism, anointing, and laying on of hands, Tertullian concludes:

"Therefore, blessed ones, whom the grace of God awaits, when you ascend from that most sacred font of your new birth [water baptism], and spread your hands [in prayer] for the first time in the house of your mother [the church], together with your brethren, ask from the Father, ask from the Lord, that His own specialties of grace and distributions of gifts may be supplied you [through receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit]. 'Ask' saith He, 'and ye shall receive'" (chap. 20).

Tertullian himself was not unaware of the presence of gifts of the Spirit at first. In his treatise, Against Marcion, one argument Tertullian uses is that Marcion cannot exhibit such gifts:

"Let Marcion exhibit, as gifts of his God, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer—only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him... [but he came to experience many spiritual gifts later] …Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty" (Bk. 5, 8).

Blessings... I hope I am not causing you to hyper-ventilate... *smile*
 
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Hermeneutico

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Yes, still holding my breathe. So you copy and paste from a book with a pentecostal agenda. That's ok, that's what we do. You quote only 1 Church Father. I don't find the explanations that convincing. Had to breathe, couldn't hold it that long

So far, I have quoted two church fathers. I have many more coming. As long as the quotes match, that is all that matter. I haven't given you the same information that two Roman Catholic Priests brought to this subject. They are in agreement. Hmmmm... I wonder why? The evidence does not lie. Sorry.
 
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concretecamper

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So far, I have quoted two church fathers. I have many more coming. As long as the quotes match, that is all that matter. I haven't given you the same information that two Roman Catholic Priests brought to this subject. They are in agreement. Hmmmm... I wonder why? The evidence does not lie. Sorry.

Let readers read and come to their own conclusion rather than the odd one the author you quoted comes to.

Good grief, I could care less if you had 10 Roman Catholic Priests. Too funny
 
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