PSA, an essential Christian doctrine.

[Ceallaigh]

And would you agree that the N.T. interprets the O.T. ?

I know there's a problem when more OT than NT is used to backup a Christian doctrine.

 

[Clare73]

But let's not just skim over them. Let's examine these passages and flesh it out, more detail. How could one who knew no sin, made sin for us? This is where we should start. How can Christ be punished for sins he did not commit? People who do not hold the Imputation doctrine will have issues here. I will pointed out as we move along. How Christ is made to be sin, is that our sins are imputed to Christ's body; he bore our sins in his body; our sins are transferred to Christ; reckoned to Christ; credited to Christ. In other words, they become his sins to bear for us. He receive the due justice and pays the penalty for our sins. For example but not limited to are the following that he endured for his people: Crushing, afflicted, stricken, pierced, oppressed, despised and rejected, smitten, slaughtered, grieved, poured out his soul to death.


This is the only way God could redeem us from from our iniquity, and the punishment that follows it. But these strips that Christ took upon his body for our sins, is only dealing with our sinful condition before a Holy God. We still need to be righteous to enter heaven. And that's the where the marvel exchange comes into play. Our sins are placed on Christ where he stands in our place to receive the full wrath of God upon his head for us. And his righteousness is imputed to us through Faith Alone apart from works. We are clothed in the white robe of Christ's righteousness (Isa. 61:10).​

being imputed or credited with the righteousness of Christ, I may enter heaven, by being declared righteous by God because of Christ, and this is received through Faith Alone. As Paul says in Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

If I may call to mind one more thing:

The righteousness (justification) imputed to us by faith (Ro 3:23, Ro 3:28, Ro 4:1-11) is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with the Court (debt paid, time served). It is not the only righteousness necessary for heaven. Likewise necessary for heaven is the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith​

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.​

I disagree with you that PSA is a man-made doctrine. It's a Biblical teaching that Christ propitiated God's wrath against us to himself. He bore our sins in our place. In other words, we switch places with Christ. Without this taking place, there is no redemption. Only condemnation, perdition, and punishment. In the Reformed Faith we call this the Marvelous exchange. Where God is both the just and the justifier of the ungodly!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I know there's a problem when more OT than NT is used to backup a Christian doctrine.

Agreed and what I noticed that the main passage used in PSA from Isaiah 53 is never once quoted in the N.T. That should let people know its not essential and its not N.T. doctrine. The entire book of Hebrews discusses the Atonement and its never mentioned. Jesus talked numerous times about the purpose of His death and atonement for sin and never mentioned or implied ant penal aspect to His death as taught by PSA proponents.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I know there's a problem when more OT than NT is used to backup a Christian doctrine.

Food for thought directly from Scripture and not my opinion. Here is what the Bible actually teaches.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.


The Blood of Christ

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Why did the Author of Hebrews leave out the "penal" aspect of the Law with the sacrifice ?

Hermeneutics 101- the N.T. interprets the O.T.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

It is a non essential reformed doctrine.

It goes back to the OT sacrifices (see post #16).

 

[Clare73]

Spot on with the calvinist lens. Most cannot see it any other way. Everything is filtered through tulip and like we are seeing here a non essential like PSA.

I left Calvinism recently through studying PSA as the vehicle which caused me to question many other teachings within calvinism.

PSA is simple. . .the OT sacrifices were PSA and the pattern for the NT sacrifice (see post #16).

 

[Clare73]

As you well know thats an impossibility since no one in the early church believed in PSA.

And you know they did not believe the OT sacrificial system was the pattern/type of the NT sacrifice, how? (see post #16)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

And you know they did not believe the OT sacrificial system was the pattern/type of the NT sacrifice, how? (see post #16)

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15

4- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again. John 2:19

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

God's punishment of Hell for sin comes after the death that sin results in. But the Father didn't punish Christ in hell after he died. It can be said that scripture indicates that Christ did actually spend time in hell between His death and resurrection (Ephesians 4:9, 1 Peter 4:6). But it certainly does not indicate that Jesus received punishment from the Father while in Hell.

And before His death Christ suffered at the hands of man. Or are we supposed to believe it was the Father who smashed a crown of thorns into Jesus' head, and then slapped, punched and spit on Jesus, and then savagely whipped him, and then pounded nails into his flesh though the hands of Roman soldiers? Because I don't see how we can say the Father punished Jesus without saying that.

You are overlooking the fact that the OT sacrificial system was the pattern/type of the NT sacrifice.
The OT sacrificial system was PSA (see post #16).

 

[Clare73]

Not a single one mentioned Gods wrath from the Father to the Son. Not a single quote talked about the Father turning His back on the Son and being separated from the Father because of sin.

Nice try though.

Jesus saved us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

 

[Clare73]

Correct and as PSA teaches that God the Father killed the Son

Only if the Father was a Roman soldier.

we see Scripture once again proves the theory is unbiblical.
Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 7:52 - They murdered him.

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

 

[Clare73]

Brother I believed that as well for 40 years. PSA the doctrine did not exist until the reformation.

See post #16.

I have dialogued with some calvinists who do not adhere to the wrath from Father to Son and the separation of the Father/Son relationship.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Jesus saved us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

right He didn't bear Gods wrath

 

[Clare73]

And would you agree that the N.T. interprets the O.T. ?

I would agree they are not contradictory when understood in the light of all Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

What did Paul specifically say about PSA?

Did I ever assert that Paul said anything about PSA?

 

[Clare73]

I understand your position and when I have had to defend the Trinity against those who reject it because of the creeds are not inspired like you I defend it from Scripture apart from any definition that came by the creeds.

So you agree with the Biblical demonstration of PSA in post #16.

 

[Clare73]

Yet no ECF's ever bothered addressing PSA.

To be perfectly honest, that reminds me a lot of SDA posts.

So?

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my error.

 

[Clare73]

I know there's a problem when more OT than NT is used to backup a Christian doctrine.

And what did Paul use to back up the doctrine of the wife's submission to the husband?

 

[Clare73]

Agreed and what I noticed that the main passage used in PSA from Isaiah 53 is never once quoted in the N.T.

Context not-with-standing, right?. . .

The anicent Jews understood all of Isa 52:13-53:12 to be of the Messiah, and it is often quoted in the NT:
Mt 8:17, Mt 20:28, Mk 15:27, Lk 23:34, Jn 12:38, Pe 1:23, 1 Pe 2:22, 1 Pe 2:24.

That should let people know its not essential and its not N.T. doctrine. The entire book of Hebrews discusses the Atonement and its never mentioned.

The entire book of Hebrews is about unbelief and apostasy of newly professing Christian Hebrews, and warnings against such.

Jesus talked numerous times about the purpose of His death and atonement for sin

Where do we find Jesus talking about his sacrificial atonement for sin?

and never mentioned or implied ant penal aspect to His death as taught by PSA propenents

Didn't need to, the Jews knew what the sacrifices were, penalty and substitutionery death.
See post #16.

 

[ladodgers6]

God's punishment of Hell for sin comes after the death that sin results in. But the Father didn't punish Christ in hell after he died. It can be said that scripture indicates that Christ did actually spend time in hell between His death and resurrection (Ephesians 4:9, 1 Peter 4:6). But it certainly does not indicate that Jesus received punishment from the Father while in Hell.

And before His death Christ suffered at the hands of man. Or are we supposed to believe it was the Father who smashed a crown of thorns into Jesus' head, and then slapped, punched and spit on Jesus, and then savagely whipped him, and then pounded nails into his flesh though the hands of Roman soldiers? Because I don't see how we can say the Father punished Jesus without saying that.

Well then you have a huge problem on your hands there. Then how in your position explain why Christ had to suffer what he did? First, you say there's only death, no punishment. Now there's punishment, because it's scriptural. So which tactics and say but it comes after. So explain why is Christ being punished, crushed, smitten, stricken, pierced, afflicted, chastised, grieved, sorrow, oppressed, slaughtered, and hung on a tree. This is just to name a few. There is still the crown of horns, spear in his side, the lashing, his hair being pulled in clumps, he was disfigured.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

Hope this helps...right???? ​