Did Yahshua Rise on the 7th Day Shabbat...

[daq]

Well before we jump into equinoxes and the like, post #196 takes all of that into account regardless of what calendar system you use or what season you believe the year starts out on. None of what you mentioned will change the fact that Passover is observed in the 1st Month of Abib.

What it means is that your reasoning for starting the year in the fourth day of the week isn't really supported as much as you may think: the only thing in support of what you have offered is that you are following the DSS Community and their same reasoning for beginning the year in the fourth day of the week, (because of the fourth day of creation).

That doesn't automatically make your view correct. I received my understanding from the Torah, which also has already been mentioned, however it is surely not going to be possible here to go over eight full chapters and explain all the plagues of Egypt in order to show that there are either seven or fourteen days (inclusive) from the Shabbat of Exodus 4:29-31 to the Passover in Exodus 12. That makes the Shabbat of Exodus 4:29-31 either the first or eighth day of Abib, (both of which would be a Shabbat, and thus the year would begin with a Shabbat). Therefore it is much more likely that the creation occurred in Autumn.

EDIT: 01/31/2022 - Having just completed a study on what I spoke about above herein, (Exodus 3 to Exodus 12), I am going to see if I can figure out how to load the PDF file and attach it to this post for anyone else who may wish to see what I was talking about herein.

PS: I didn't like the way it loaded so I put it in Google Drive at the following link.
Commencement of the Exodus Calendar Year

 

[Humble Penny]

What it means is that your reasoning for starting the year in the fourth day of the week isn't really supported as much as you may think: the only thing in support of what you have offered is that you are following the DSS Community and their same reasoning for beginning the year in the fourth day of the week, (because of the fourth day of creation).

That doesn't automatically make your view correct. I received my understanding from the Torah, which also has already been mentioned, however it is surely not going to be possible here to go over eight full chapters and explain all the plagues of Egypt in order to show that there are fourteen days (inclusive) from the Shabbat of Exodus 4:29-31 to the Passover in Exodus 12. That makes the Shabbat of Exodus 4:29-31 the first day of Abib. Therefore it is much more likely that the creation occurred in Autumn.

Count however you like my dear brother, post #196 will show that I remained objective and unbiased towards all views whatever names those doctrines might be called, and no matter how they want to count in their systems. And it's impossible for you now to believe the year began in autumn when post #201 shows quite the opposite of what you've stated.

 

[Humble Penny]

Genesis 1:1-2:3 is the cornerstone of biblical chronology and astronomy as it is the very beginning of all things. So why would a person start at any other point in the Bible to get their calendar information?

 

[daq]

Count however you like my dear brother, post #196 will show that I remained objective and unbiased towards all views whatever names those doctrines might be called, and no matter how they want to count in their systems. And it's impossible for you now to believe the year began in autumn when post #201 shows quite the opposite of what you've stated.

You misunderstood: it isn't however I like but rather what the Torah teaches me in the first twelve chapters of Exodus. Are you aware that the term Rosh Hashanah is actually used in the scripture?

 

[Humble Penny]

Can you provide the verses by which you make this assertion; so that they can be easily compared with the calendar representation that you presented in post Post #104?

It would be valuable to cite the Dead Sea Scroll references too.

To better seal your logical argument, it would be valuable to edit them into Post #104.

Okay here are the passages according to the Masoretic Text which give us 370 Days:

• "In the 600th year of Noah’s life, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.”
• Genesis 7:11 NASB1995

• "In the 7th month, on the 17th day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. Now it came about in the 601st year, in the 1st month, on the 1st of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up. In the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, the earth was dry.
• Genesis 8:4‭, ‬13‭-‬14 NASB1995

According to the Septuagint the Flood lasted only 360 Days:

• "In the 600th year of the life of Noe, in the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the abyss were broken up, and the flood-gates of heaven were opened."
• Genesis 7:11

• "And the water subsided, and went off the earth, and after 150 days the water was diminished, and the ark rested in the 7th month, on the 27th day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. And it came to pass in the 601st year of the life Nor, in the 1st month, on the 1st day of the month, the water subsided from off the earth, and Noe opened the covering of the ark which he had made, and he saw that the water had subsided from off the face of the earth. And in the 2nd month the earth was dried, on the 27th day of the month."
• Genesis 8:3, 13-14

And finally we have the account of Josephus who doesnt't give the date when the Flood ended, but only when it began:

• "This calamity happened in the 600th year of Noah's government, (age,) in the 2nd month, called by the Macedonians Dius, but by the Hebrews Marchesuan: for so did they order their year in Egypt. But Moses appointed that Nisan, which is the same with Xanthicus, should be the 1st month for their festivals, because he brought them out of Egypt in that month: so that this month began the year as to all the solemnities they observed to the honor of God, although he preserved the original order of the months as to selling and buying, and other ordinary affairs. Now he says that this flood began on the 27th (17th) day of the forementioned month; and this was 2,256 (1,656) years from Adam, the first man;"
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:3

• When the rain ceased, the water did but just begin to abate after 150 days, (that is, on the 17th day of the 7th month,) it then ceasing to subside for a little while. After this, the ark rested on the top of a certain mountain in Armenia; which, when Noah understood, he opened it; and seeing a small piece of land about it, he continued quiet, and conceived some cheerful hopes of deliverance. But a few days afterward, when the water was decreased to a greater degree, he sent out a raven, as desirous to learn whether any other part of the earth were left dry by the water, and whether he might go out of the ark with safety; but the raven, finding all the land still overflowed, returned to Noah again. And after 7 days he sent out a dove, to know the state of the ground; which came back to him covered with mud, and bringing an olive branch: hereby Noah learned that the earth was become clear of the flood. So after he had staid 7 more days, he sent the living creatures out of the ark; and both he and his family went out, when he also sacrificed to God, and feasted with his companions. However, the Armenians call this place, αποβατηριον6 The Place of Descent; for the ark being saved in that place, its remains are shown there by the inhabitants to this day."
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:5

The text highlighted in red from Josephus are edits made by either the translator of his work, or those of some unknown scribe. Otherwise we see that not only does Josephus agree with the years from Adam to the Flood according to the Septuagint/LXX, but the dates given by him show that he also was calculating a 360 Day base solar year. Maybe the unknown editors didn't want people getting the idea that the Bible supports a 360 Day Solar Year with 4 Intercalary Days.

 

[Humble Penny]

You misunderstood: it isn't however I like but rather what the Torah teaches me in the first twelve chapters of Exodus. Are you aware that the term Rosh Hashanah is actually used in the scripture?

I've presented the evidence objectively so now it's on others if they want to reject the truth in front of them. Prayers to you brother.

 

[Humble Penny]

Okay here are the passages according to the Masoretic Text which give us 370 Days:

• "In the 600th year of Noah’s life, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.”
• Genesis 7:11 NASB1995

• "In the 7th month, on the 17th day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. Now it came about in the 601st year, in the 1st month, on the 1st of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up. In the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, the earth was dry.
• Genesis 8:4‭, ‬13‭-‬14 NASB1995

According to the Septuagint the Flood lasted only 360 Days:

• "In the 600th year of the life of Noe, in the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the abyss were broken up, and the flood-gates of heaven were opened."
• Genesis 7:11

• "And the water subsided, and went off the earth, and after 150 days the water was diminished, and the ark rested in the 7th month, on the 27th day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. And it came to pass in the 601st year of the life Nor, in the 1st month, on the 1st day of the month, the water subsided from off the earth, and Noe opened the covering of the ark which he had made, and he saw that the water had subsided from off the face of the earth. And in the 2nd month the earth was dried, on the 27th day of the month."
• Genesis 8:3, 13-14

And finally we have the account of Josephus who doesnt't give the date when the Flood ended, but only when it began:

• "This calamity happened in the 600th year of Noah's government, (age,) in the 2nd month, called by the Macedonians Dius, but by the Hebrews Marchesuan: for so did they order their year in Egypt. But Moses appointed that Nisan, which is the same with Xanthicus, should be the 1st month for their festivals, because he brought them out of Egypt in that month: so that this month began the year as to all the solemnities they observed to the honor of God, although he preserved the original order of the months as to selling and buying, and other ordinary affairs. Now he says that this flood began on the 27th (17th) day of the forementioned month; and this was 2,256 (1,656) years from Adam, the first man;"
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:3

• When the rain ceased, the water did but just begin to abate after 150 days, (that is, on the 17th day of the 7th month,) it then ceasing to subside for a little while. After this, the ark rested on the top of a certain mountain in Armenia; which, when Noah understood, he opened it; and seeing a small piece of land about it, he continued quiet, and conceived some cheerful hopes of deliverance. But a few days afterward, when the water was decreased to a greater degree, he sent out a raven, as desirous to learn whether any other part of the earth were left dry by the water, and whether he might go out of the ark with safety; but the raven, finding all the land still overflowed, returned to Noah again. And after 7 days he sent out a dove, to know the state of the ground; which came back to him covered with mud, and bringing an olive branch: hereby Noah learned that the earth was become clear of the flood. So after he had staid 7 more days, he sent the living creatures out of the ark; and both he and his family went out, when he also sacrificed to God, and feasted with his companions. However, the Armenians call this place, αποβατηριον6 The Place of Descent; for the ark being saved in that place, its remains are shown there by the inhabitants to this day."
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:5

The text highlighted in red from Josephus are edits made by either the translator of his work, or those of some unknown scribe. Otherwise we see that not only does Josephus agree with the years from Adam to the Flood, but the dates given by him show that he also was calculating a 360 Day base solar year. Maybe the unknown editors didn't want people getting the idea that the Bible supports a 360 Day Solar Year with 4 Intercalary Days.

@HARK! I almost forgot to include the Dead Sea Scrolls:

As you can see the Dead Sea Scrolls were badly mutilated and therefore have huge chunks missing from them. So we don't have the genealogical records of Genesis 5 & 11 or the beginning and end of Noah's Flood.

 

[Humble Penny]

So my entire argument may be found in the following posts:

#104
#134
#147
#196 thru 198
#201

 

[HARK!]

@HARK! I almost forgot to include the Dead Sea Scrolls:
View attachment 311361 View attachment 311359

As you can see the Dead Sea Scrolls were badly mutilated and therefore have huge chunks missing from them. So we don't have the genealogical records of Genesis 5 & 11 or the beginning and end of Noah's Flood.

I found this book here: The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible : Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


However yours appears to be in PDF format. Do you have a link to the PDF?

[Edit: Never mind, I see that there is an option to download the PDF at archive .org. Good find!]

 

[Humble Penny]

I found this book here: The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible : Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

However yours appears to be in PDF format. Do you have a link to the PDF?

The link you have is from the same author and publisher, if you scroll down you can download the .pdf file for free:

I found mine on Google Play Books, which is what you guys see from my screenshot.

 

[HARK!]

The link you have is from the same author and publisher, if you scroll down you can download the .pdf file for free:

View attachment 311374

I found mine on Google Play Books, which is what you guys see from my screenshot.

Yes, I saw that right after I posted the question. I'm excited about having this translation in my collection.

 

[Humble Penny]

Yes, I saw that right after I posted the question. I'm excited about having this translation in my collection.

Yes I was quite excited to have added it to my personal library as well lol! I would've liked to compare the ages of the patriarchs from Adam to Abraham in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but sadly they weren't there so...

Anyways here a screenshot from the same link you shared showing that indeed Genesis 5 & 11, which we'd love to have, are missing:

 

[Torah Keeper]

]

Then after [the] Sabbaths it being dawn toward one [of the] Sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary[...]"

Then after [the] Sabbath [of Passover] it being early in the morning [before the 7th Day] Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary[...]"

What ridiculous mistranslations are you trying to pull here? Lol.

Okay here are the passages according to the Masoretic Text which give us 370 Days:

• "In the 600th year of Noah’s life, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.”
• Genesis 7:11 NASB1995

• "In the 7th month, on the 17th day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. Now it came about in the 601st year, in the 1st month, on the 1st of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up. In the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, the earth was dry.
• Genesis 8:4‭, ‬13‭-‬14 NASB1995

According to the Septuagint the Flood lasted only 360 Days:

• "In the 600th year of the life of Noe, in the 2nd month, on the 27th day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the abyss were broken up, and the flood-gates of heaven were opened."
• Genesis 7:11

• "And the water subsided, and went off the earth, and after 150 days the water was diminished, and the ark rested in the 7th month, on the 27th day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. And it came to pass in the 601st year of the life Nor, in the 1st month, on the 1st day of the month, the water subsided from off the earth, and Noe opened the covering of the ark which he had made, and he saw that the water had subsided from off the face of the earth. And in the 2nd month the earth was dried, on the 27th day of the month."
• Genesis 8:3, 13-14

And finally we have the account of Josephus who doesnt't give the date when the Flood ended, but only when it began:

• "This calamity happened in the 600th year of Noah's government, (age,) in the 2nd month, called by the Macedonians Dius, but by the Hebrews Marchesuan: for so did they order their year in Egypt. But Moses appointed that Nisan, which is the same with Xanthicus, should be the 1st month for their festivals, because he brought them out of Egypt in that month: so that this month began the year as to all the solemnities they observed to the honor of God, although he preserved the original order of the months as to selling and buying, and other ordinary affairs. Now he says that this flood began on the 27th (17th) day of the forementioned month; and this was 2,256 (1,656) years from Adam, the first man;"
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:3

• When the rain ceased, the water did but just begin to abate after 150 days, (that is, on the 17th day of the 7th month,) it then ceasing to subside for a little while. After this, the ark rested on the top of a certain mountain in Armenia; which, when Noah understood, he opened it; and seeing a small piece of land about it, he continued quiet, and conceived some cheerful hopes of deliverance. But a few days afterward, when the water was decreased to a greater degree, he sent out a raven, as desirous to learn whether any other part of the earth were left dry by the water, and whether he might go out of the ark with safety; but the raven, finding all the land still overflowed, returned to Noah again. And after 7 days he sent out a dove, to know the state of the ground; which came back to him covered with mud, and bringing an olive branch: hereby Noah learned that the earth was become clear of the flood. So after he had staid 7 more days, he sent the living creatures out of the ark; and both he and his family went out, when he also sacrificed to God, and feasted with his companions. However, the Armenians call this place, αποβατηριον6 The Place of Descent; for the ark being saved in that place, its remains are shown there by the inhabitants to this day."
• Antiquities of the Jews; Book I; Chapter 3:5

The text highlighted in red from Josephus are edits made by either the translator of his work, or those of some unknown scribe. Otherwise we see that not only does Josephus agree with the years from Adam to the Flood, but the dates given by him show that he also was calculating a 360 Day base solar year. Maybe the unknown editors didn't want people getting the idea that the Bible supports a 360 Day Solar Year with 4 Intercalary Days.

Nice try. But you just proved there were no intercalary days. You can't have 5 months of 30 days each and have it add up to 150 days in any calendar. Look:

Month 1-30
Month 2-60
Month 3-90
Month 4-120
Month 5-150

By your Qumran solar calendar, this should have been 151-152 days. You would have had to add an intercalary day every 3rd month. So it just proves your 364 day calendar wrong.

A lot of people have noticed that before the flood, it seems that the year was 360 days long, and the moon was 30 days long. The flood seems to have changed that. There are 2 popular theories why. The first is that the year became 365.2422 days long, and the moon became 29.53 days long, because of the flood. And has stayed that way since.

The 2nd theory is that the solar year has slowly been increasing, and the moon has slowly been decreasing. So that the year went from 360, to 361, 362, 363, 364, and now 365 days. Your Qumran calendar may have been invented during an age when the year was 364 days long. But it's not anymore. Or, it could just be completely wrong.

I have read that in ancient Egypt, they used a 365 day calendar. So the 2nd theory I mentioned above is likely wrong. And I think we should see evidence of a lengthening year over the course of history, but to my knowledge, we don't. So I go with theory one. The solar and lunar year was 360 days before the flood. Now it is off to be 365.2422 solar days and the metonic cycle is used to keep the moons in check with the seasons.

The idea of having strictly solar "months" isn't logical. Months are moons and they make no sense apart from the moon. You could divide the solar year into any units of time you want. Why 30 or 31 days? Why not 15? 90? 10? Isn't it a little bit suspicious, that solar "months" are usually 30 days? And the moon is usually 30 days? Coincidence? Of course it isn't just a coincidence. Months are moons.

 

[Humble Penny]

]





What ridiculous mistranslations are you trying to pull here? Lol.



Nice try. But you just proved there were no intercalary days. You can't have 5 months of 30 days each and have it add up to 150 days in any calendar. Look:

Month 1-30
Month 2-60
Month 3-90
Month 4-120
Month 5-150

By your Qumran solar calendar, this should have been 151-152 days. You would have had to add an intercalary day every 3rd month. So it just proves your 364 day calendar wrong.

A lot of people have noticed that before the flood, it seems that the year was 360 days long, and the moon was 30 days long. The flood seems to have changed that. There are 2 popular theories why. The first is that the year became 365.2422 days long, and the moon became 29.53 days long, because of the flood. And has stayed that way since.

The 2nd theory is that the solar year has slowly been increasing, and the moon has slowly been decreasing. So that the year went from 360, to 361, 362, 363, 364, and now 365 days. Your Qumran calendar may have been invented during an age when the year was 364 days long. But it's not anymore. Or, it could just be completely wrong.

I have read that in ancient Egypt, they used a 365 day calendar. So the 2nd theory I mentioned above is likely wrong. And I think we should see evidence of a lengthening year over the course of history, but to my knowledge, we don't. So I go with theory one. The solar and lunar year was 360 days before the flood. Now it is off to be 365.2422 solar days and the metonic cycle is used to keep the moons in check with the seasons.

The idea of having strictly solar "months" isn't logical. Months are moons and they make no sense apart from the moon. You could divide the solar year into any units of time you want. Why 30 or 31 days? Why not 15? 90? 10? Isn't it a little bit suspicious, that solar "months" are usually 30 days? And the moon is usually 30 days? Coincidence? Of course it isn't just a coincidence. Months are moons.

Post #195.

 

[daq]

I've presented the evidence objectively so now it's on others if they want to reject the truth in front of them. Prayers to you brother.

I disagree that your arguments are objective, for example, you just skipped right over what I said in what you just quoted.

Ezekiel 40:1 KJV
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

Ezekiel 40:1 TS2009 (W/Footnotes)
1 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at Rosha haShanah,b on the tenth of the new moon, in the fourteenth year after the city was stricken, on that same day the hand of יהוה came upon me and He brought me there. Footnotes: aHead. bOf the year.

Is this Abib/Nisan 10? or is it Ethanim/Tishri 10? Modern Judaism would obviously say that Rosh haShanah is Tishri 1, Yom Teruah, and therefore it is the 10th of the seventh month, Yom haKippurim.

And yet you just skip over such things and ignore them as though they are insignificant. However if this is indeed the 10th of the seventh month then the Prophet is calling Ethanim/Tishri the head of the year.

Would it not be that he says this because of the creation of the world? And again, this puts your reasoning for starting your calendar on the fourth day of the week in doubt: for you say it starts with the fourth day of the week because of the fourth day of creation, but it may indeed be that the creation should be understood to have occurred in Autumn.

I'm not saying either way, but what I am saying is that your hypothesis really doesn't have much merit: and if you want to argue that the passage above is speaking of Abib/Nisan then you surely have an uphill battle.

 

[Humble Penny]

I disagree that your arguments are objective, for example, you just skipped right over what I said in what you just quoted.

Ezekiel 40:1 KJV
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

Ezekiel 40:1 TS2009 (W/Footnotes)
1 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at Rosha haShanah,b on the tenth of the new moon, in the fourteenth year after the city was stricken, on that same day the hand of יהוה came upon me and He brought me there. Footnotes: aHead. bOf the year.

Is this Abib/Nisan 10? or is it Ethanim/Tishri 10? Modern Judaism would obviously say that Rosh haShanah is Tishri 1, Yom Teruah, and therefore it is the 10th of the seventh month, Yom haKippurim.

And yet you just skip over such things and ignore them as though they are insignificant. However if this is indeed the 10th of the seventh month then the Prophet is calling Ethanim/Tishri the head of the year.

Would it not be that he says this because of the creation of the world? And again, this puts your reasoning for starting your calendar on the fourth day of the week in doubt: for you say it starts with the fourth day of the week because of the fourth day of creation, but it may indeed be that the creation should be understood to have occurred in Autumn.

I'm not saying either way, but what I am saying is that your hypothesis really doesn't have much merit: and if you want to argue that the passage above is speaking of Abib/Nisan then you surely have an uphill battle.

post #195
Details, details, details...have you bothered to consider that once you have the big picture correct then the detail will align themselves to it?

 

[daq]

post #195
Details, details, details...have you bothered to consider that once you have the big picture correct then the detail will align themselves to it?

That is the opposite way from how I study and willingly receive from the Father what is in His Word. I have a "big picture" too, because I pay attention to every little detail and study it all out in prayer: and the "big picture" I have is not the same as yours.

 

[Humble Penny]

That is the opposite way from how I study and willingly receive from the Father what is in His Word. I have a "big picture" too, because I pay attention to every little detail and study it all out in prayer: and the "big picture" I have is not the same as yours.

Identify you calendar in post #195 and, you will know if it is supported by the Word of God.

Prayers brother.

 

[Humble Penny]

Would it not be that he says this because of the creation of the world? And again, this puts your reasoning for starting your calendar on the fourth day of the week in doubt: for you say it starts with the fourth day of the week because of the fourth day of creation, but it may indeed be that the creation should be understood to have occurred in Autumn.

Guess you must have missed the obvious fact that before God created time and the world that there were no seasons before Genesis 1:1? Sigh...

And in regards to what season God began the world in see post #201.

 

[Humble Penny]

@daq Dear brother I have one simple question:

Does life begin with your death?

A silly question on the surface I know...but what I find funny about the line of reasoning of those who believe that the year begins in the fall, and the day begins in the evening, or even midnight:

It's like saying God starts your life with you dead...and then brings you to life? Or even hilarious still that you begin your day when it's time to sleep.

These things are contrary to the natural order of things and isn't supported by Scripture.

Before Adam was given the breath of life to live: he never existed.

Allegorize that.