Did Yahshua Rise on the 7th Day Shabbat...

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Why is that you, and others of like mind, can't see from the undeniable evidence from post #129 and post #134 that the Greek text doesn't support a Friday burial and Sunday resurrection? Why do you continue to reason with a subjective mindset?

Undeniable evidence! That's funny! The GREEK Church has supported it for almost 2000 yrs! Ha Mevin Yavin!

 

[daq]

Do you want to talk about that literally or allegorically? I stopped responding to you on my thread because you began to allegorize the Scriptures when you couldn't come up with a sensible literal answer to a literal problem I was addressing. This thread is talking about literally figuring out the exact literal day and time in which Yeshua died.

Which of these do you suppose might be allegorical?

Exodus 16:23, shabbaton shabbat kodesh
Exodus 31:15, shabbat shabbaton kodesh
Exodus 35:2, kodesh shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 16:31, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:3, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:32 shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 25:4 shabbat shabbaton (for the land)

I suppose if you ignore in your calendar the fact that Yom haKippurim is to be a Shabbat shabbaton weekly Shabbat then perhaps maybe you think it is allegorical.

 

[Humble Penny]

Which of these do you suppose might be allegorical?

Exodus 16:23, shabbaton shabbat kodesh
Exodus 31:15, shabbat shabbaton kodesh
Exodus 35:2, kodesh shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 16:31, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:3, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:32 shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 25:4 shabbat shabbaton (for the land)

I suppose if you ignore in your calendar the fact that Yom haKippurim is to be a Shabbat shabbaton weekly Shabbat then perhaps maybe you think it is allegorical.

And this is why I stopped responding to you because you clearly couldn't read what I wrote to you in my post which you quoted in post #162.

I said I stopped talking to you because YOU allegorize a majority of Scripture when you can't deal with a literal problem.

 

[Humble Penny]

Undeniable evidence! That's funny! The GREEK Church has supported it for almost 2000 yrs! Ha Mevin Yavin!

Yes and the Catholic Church supported the selling of indulgences but, according to you we should just follow the majority rule...sigh...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes and the Catholic Church supported the selling of indulgences but, according to you we should just follow the majority rule...sigh...

What does that have anything to do with what I said...nothing. The Greek Church never did that anyway...so your point it moot. I am sorry but you have not provided any evidence for me to change my views...

 

[daq]

And this is why I stopped responding to you because you clearly couldn't read what I wrote to you in my post which you quoted in post #162.

I said I stopped talking to you because YOU allegorize a majority of Scripture when you can't deal with a literal problem.

More obfuscation and deflection. And you wonder why I said what I did in my first response to you here when you admonished me to read your posts?

 

[klutedavid]

How do you define "Old Testament?" Would that include the Torah? Jubilees is Torah According to 4Q266.

How do you define Jewish? Would Zadokim fall under your definition of Jewish?

Hark, you must be joking. I don't believe you asked that question.

"How do you define "Old Testament?"

 

[HARK!]

Guys, guys, can we focus on the topic?

ShalO-om!

 

[klutedavid]

What do we learn in geometry about triangles?

a2 + b2 = c2

In other words if you know the angle of two sides of a triangle then you know the angle of the third side is the sum of the first two side angles. And this agrees with the words of Moses and Christ:

“A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed."
Deuteronomy 19:15 NASB1995

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."
Matthew 18:16 NASB1995

My two witnesses for a Tuesday Burial Doctrine are Genesis 1:1-2:3 and the Dead Sea Scrolls Mishmarot A (4Q230). So I don't care what name you give you calendar or how it works because there are only seven possible places you can begin the 1st Month of the year on. My witnesses support my claim and my work on post #147.

Now the challenge is for others who believe differently to show their work and provide proof that Scripture and the Dead Sea Scrolls support them. If you reject the Dead Sea Scrolls then you may as well reject all 38/39 Books from the Old Testament which have been preserved in them to provide proof that the Bible in our hands today is authentic.

View attachment 311347

You wrote the following.

"An objective view would show that it is a solar calendar"

The Hebrew calendar in the Old Testament was based on twelve lunar months. No matter how you wrangle it Humble Penny, the Hebrew year was a Lunar year. They added days to their lunar calendar, at a later time, so that it did not drift too far. How do I know this?

The text (Dead Sea Scrolls) quotated below ( the same text you quoted in post #148)

Mishmarot A(4Q320)

This statement appears in that text over seven times, "...(day of the lunar month)..."

A lunar month only has 29 to 30 days, a solar month is 30 to 31 days long.

Can you see the difference between a lunar month and a solar month?

The Hebrew calendar was definitely a lunar calendar. Because it was composed of lunar months and not solar months.

Stop calling the Hebrew calendar a solar calendar or even a solar/lunar calendar.

The Hebrew calendar was never a solar calendar.

 

[Humble Penny]

What does that have anything to do with what I said...nothing. The Greek Church never did that anyway...so your point it moot. I am sorry but you have not provided any evidence for me to change my views...

More obfuscation and deflection. And you wonder why I said what I did in my first response to you here when you admonished me to read your posts?

You wrote the following.

"An objective view would show that it is a solar calendar"

The Hebrew calendar in the Old Testament was based on twelve lunar months. No matter how you wrangle it Humble Penny, the Hebrew year was a Lunar year. They added days to their lunar calendar, at a later time, so that it did not drift too far. How do I know this?

The text (Dead Sea Scrolls) quotated below ( the same text you quoted in post #148)

Mishmarot A(4Q320)

This statement appears in that text over seven times, "...(day of the lunar month)..."

A lunar month only has 29 to 30 days, a solar month is 30 to 31 days long.

Can you see the difference between a lunar month and a solar month?

The Hebrew calendar was definitely a lunar calendar. Because it was composed of lunar months and not solar months.

Stop calling the Hebrew calendar a solar calendar or even a solar/lunar calendar.

The Hebrew calendar was never a solar calendar.

Post #147

 

[HARK!]

The Hebrew calendar was definitely a lunar calendar. Because it was composed of lunar months and not solar months.

If you had read though this thread; you would have seen that evidence has already been presented which would undermine this blanket statement.

Which Hebrews? Would or would not, the Zadokim at Betharaba be considered Hebrews in your book?

 

[daq]

You wrote the following.

"An objective view would show that it is a solar calendar"

The Hebrew calendar in the Old Testament was based on twelve lunar months. No matter how you wrangle it Humble Penny, the Hebrew year was a Lunar year. They added days to their lunar calendar, at a later time, so that it did not drift too far. How do I know this?

The text (Dead Sea Scrolls) quotated below ( the same text you quoted in post #148)

Mishmarot A(4Q320)

This statement appears in that text over seven times, "...(day of the lunar month)..."

A lunar month only has 29 to 30 days, a solar month is 30 to 31 days long.

Can you see the difference between a lunar month and a solar month?

The Hebrew calendar was definitely a lunar calendar. Because it was composed of lunar months and not solar months.

Stop calling the Hebrew calendar a solar calendar or even a solar/lunar calendar.

The Hebrew calendar was never a solar calendar.

The DSS do not prove anything of the sort and, in fact, they believed the year to be a solar year of 364 days based on their understanding of the solar year and the Book of the Luminaries. Just because you see lunar months mentioned somewhere doesn't mean that is what they observed.

Moreover your assertion is based on modern Jewish tradition, not the Torah. You'll need to prove your assertion from the Torah: but it doesn't teach what you claim, for a hodesh, when it is used in the sense of a full month instead of the day, (rosh hodesh, the first day of the month), is thirty days. No more, no less, (Exodus 16 and Numbers 11).

 

[HARK!]

Hark, you must be joking. I don't believe you asked that question.

"How do you define "Old Testament?"

No joke.

Believe it. I believe that you failed to define your own terms that you used in your fallacious argument.

The "no true Scottsman" fallacy doesn't fly here.

Do you have any credible, and verifiable, information to contribute to this study?

 

[HARK!]

This point is the very beginning of time for before God created anything only eternity existed and God dwells in eternity. If this were not so then God could not be Eternal. Not only is this the beginning of time it is also the beginning of recorded history itself, and as regards the calendar year this begins the 1st Day of the Week. Yet somehow people blunder on these points and confuse the 1st Day of the Week with the 1st Day of the Month...and this is because people fail to see that the calendar year cannot begin without the luminaries.

This is a very interesting observation. Yes, it would appear that time preceded the reckoning of a calendar. It would also appear that the reckoning of a calendar preceded man.

 

[HARK!]

That said Genesis 1:1a is also the very beginning of Day 1 and must not be confused with the pagan understanding of Sunday as there were no luminaries at this time.

Maybe I'm misunderstandng the point of this statement.

YHWH rested on the 7th day. Do we not start counting Shabbats from that day? The Pagans named that day Saturday. If we count backwards from the first Shabbat, to the 1st day; YHWH calls that the first day, before it could be reckoned by the luminaries. If the Pagans call the 1st day Sunday; why would Sunday require reckoning by the luminaries, in order to use the word "Sunday" to describe the first day?

 

[HARK!]

And who does God make the leader of the luminaries? The Sun which He calls the Greater Light which rules the day, and the Moon which is the Lesser Light follows behind and rules the night, and the stars follow behind them as well: so the Moon and stars have months of 30 Days because the Sun who leads then has months of 30 Days.

I haven't dismissed the Enoch Calendar; nor have I dismissed the Lunar Calendar. These are but two calendars that can split up Messianic congregations. I have not proven out which of the many calendars is correct; but I have dismissed the Hillel Calendar.

That said, you made an If/Then statement; but you didn't establish that the sun has 30 day months.

I would add that I honor YHWH's Moedim to the best of my understanding. If someone of a different understand asks me to share in fellowship, the Moedim according to their understanding; I'll join them; so long as it doesn't conflict with the observation of the Moedim according to my understanding. For example, I follow the scripture of the Pentateuch to the best of my understanding. Most Messianics I know follow the Hillel Calendar. A few years ago, our reckonings were about a month apart. I could keep mine; and fellowship with them on theirs.

Pesach: As I believe that I am in exile; that YHWH has not called me back to the land; I believe that I am obligated to honor Pesach as in the Tabernacle period. I have to stay in my home for that evening. If our calendars lined up to the same day; I would not go to their fellowship, which is usually ends, and everyone leaves before sunrise.

Zachary Bauer promotes a similar message regarding sharing fellowship with others who are on a different calendar.

That said, I haven't ruled out the possibility that Yahshua and his disciples would also share fellowship in this way. Because I haven't ruled that out; I can't rule out the possibility that there were two different calendars being referenced in this story.

 

[klutedavid]

If you had read though this thread; you would have seen that evidence has already been presented which would undermine this blanket statement.

Which Hebrews? Would or would not, the Zadokim at Betharaba be considered Hebrews in your book?

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David, e.t.c.

 

[chad kincham]

Did Yahshua Rise on the 7th Day Shabbat...

...or could it have been another day of rest?

(CLV) Mk 16:9
Now, rising in the morning in the first (πρωτη) sabbath (σαββατου), He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Since Jesus had to be dead three days - or at least part of three days - which is Friday Saturday and Sunday, it would be a little difficult to get three days out of Friday and Saturday, I would think.

 

[HARK!]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David, e.t.c.

None of these men were Zadokim. Do you not understand the question?

 

[klutedavid]

No joke.

Believe it. I believe that you failed to define your own terms that you used in your fallacious argument.

The "no true Scottsman" fallacy doesn't fly here.

Do you have any credible, and verifiable, information to contribute to this study?

The Old Testament as defined by the Vulgate.

The Septuagint.

How do you define the phrase, 'The Old Testament'?

Post #147

I will simply explain to you why the calendar in the Old Testament was a lunar calendar.

The number of days in a lunar month is say 29 days.

The number of days in a solar month is say 31 days.

Each calendar, lunar and solar, have a different number of days at the end of the year. The difference between the solar year and the lunar year was eleven days.

Every two or three years the lunar calendar will be 22 to 33 days shorter than the solar calendar.

So the Hebrews added a month to either the second or third year. To keep the calendar accurate enough.

Now we come to the important point.

Every year is a lunar year, adding a month every third year, does not change the previous two lunar years into solar years.

The Hebrew calendar was a lunar calendar, lunar years, lunar months, even lunar days.