Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Copperhead

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I will admit this is good human reasoning. But in some cases, human reasoning comes up with the wrong answer.

If it is "us" then that includes the 4 beasts. That tells us the 4 beasts are redeemed also!

However, ignoring that problem, why can't they be the real elders, say the first 24 righteous starting with Adam? Who would be more elder than Adam?

They could be. What I stated is just one possibility and the only references we have in scripture of who they guys could be is in 1 Peter 2:9 and 1 Chronicles 24. Anything else is speculation with no scriptural support. And it follows the Torah requirement as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17.... that any matter has to have scriptural support in both OT and NT.

When David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions, each division had a specific name to identify it. But still the division was a group, not an individual, though like any group, there would be a representative individual of each group. When there was information that needed passed on to the priesthood, it would be given to the representatives of the groups and they would pass it on down. So for formal meeting purposes, there would be 24 individuals, but they represent their respective groups.

And Pete essentially said the same thing as "kings and Priests" the Revelation shows by stating the redeemed are a "royal priesthood".

And within Revelation itself, it says that the redeemed will rule with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will. Revelation 2:26-27. Just as these elders say in Revelation 5:10.

Now if you can show examples in both OT and NT this direct as to the possible identity of these elders, please share it with the rest of us to consider.
 
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iamlamad

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They could be. What I stated is just one possibility and the only references we have in scripture of who they guys could be is in 1 Peter 2:9 and 1 Chronicles 24. Anything else is speculation with no scriptural support. And it follows the Torah requirement as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17.... that any matter has to have scriptural support in both OT and NT.

When David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions, each division had a specific name to identify it. But still the division was a group, not an individual, though like any group, there would be a representative individual of each group. When there was information that needed passed on to the priesthood, it would be given to the representatives of the groups and they would pass it on down. So for formal meeting purposes, there would be 24 individuals, but they represent their respective groups.

And Pete essentially said the same thing as "kings and Priests" the Revelation shows by stating the redeemed are a "royal priesthood".

And within Revelation itself, it says that the redeemed will rule with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will. Revelation 2:26-27. Just as these elders say in Revelation 5:10.

Now if you can show examples in both OT and NT this direct as to the possible identity of these elders, please share it with the rest of us to consider.
Just because we find a "24" in two passages in the bible does not prove anything: they might be related and then again they might not. I would have to see scriptural proof they are related more than just the same number.

To decide of the first seal is 32 AD or still in our future, we need to consider every single verse in chapters 4 & 5. In considering the elders, I don't think there is scriptural proof of anything that will move the first seal off of the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

I suspect we will just disagree on this point until we arrive in heaven.
 
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Copperhead

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Just because we find a "24" in two passages in the bible does not prove anything: they might be related and then again they might not. I would have to see scriptural proof they are related more than just the same number.

To decide of the first seal is 32 AD or still in our future, we need to consider every single verse in chapters 4 & 5. In considering the elders, I don't think there is scriptural proof of anything that will move the first seal off of the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

I suspect we will just disagree on this point until we arrive in heaven.

To decide if chapter 4&5 relate to 32AD, there has to be supporting passages in the OT that relate. Not my idea. The Torah in the OT and the Bereans in the NT set that standard. Take it up with Abba.
 
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Vicky gould

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It is great. Why would our Husband put us through the trib? Simple answer He wouldn’t. Understanding the Jewish wedding ceremony goes a long way in dispelling the trib for the Bride.
 
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iamlamad

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To decide if chapter 4&5 relate to 32AD, there has to be supporting passages in the OT that relate. Not my idea. The Torah in the OT and the Bereans in the NT set that standard. Take it up with Abba.
Sorry, but this is just one more man made theory. All the Bereans had to work with is the Old Testament. There are MANY things in the New Testament that simply cannot be found in the Old, so your "standard" fails.

From Wikipedia: Erasmus's only text source for the Book of Revelation, is a manuscript of the Andreas commentary and not a continuous text manuscript. In this manuscript, it was not always easy for Erasmus to distinguish the commentary text from the biblical source text. The Andreas text is recognised as related to the Byzantine text in Revelation; but most textual critics nevertheless consider it to be a distinct text-type.

For the book or Revelation only, I prefer other Greek texts. I think we both can agree that the four Beasts at the throne are not redeemed men.
 
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iamlamad

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I wonder, for the moderators here: since I believe the rapture will happen (in Revelation) between the 5th and 6th seal, does that automatically mean (as it did in the Rapture Ready forum) that I am not a true "pretrib?"

I know I am pretrib, for I know the "trib" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal.
 
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Timtofly

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For the book or Revelation only, I prefer other Greek texts. I think we both can agree that the four Beasts at the throne are not redeemed men.
Why not?

The text is not describing them as beast. The text is describing them as beast because of the attributes God gave these beings.

I have been accused of being hyper literal and cannot discern between symbolic and literal. Since it is symbolic, they do not have to be literally what is described. They can be 4 humans given distinct attributes, and the description is not turning them into video game avatars. It is just explaining the ability one would associate with that particular beast.

It is plausible that since these 4 beast do not pertain to the church at all, their placement in the NT, would allow the church to not even think of them except as ambiguous. Only when these beast have a task, are they of importance. Their identities were never needed during the time the church is active, between the Cross and the Second Coming.
 
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Timtofly

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I wonder, for the moderators here: since I believe the rapture will happen (in Revelation) between the 5th and 6th seal, does that automatically mean (as it did in the Rapture Ready forum) that I am not a true "pretrib?"

I know I am pretrib, for I know the "trib" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal.
No one wants to have a specific definition on any tribulation. The GT is not the unprecedented tribulation. Great does not mean the same thing as "like no other". For instance a great grand parent does not mean an unprecedented like no other grand parent. It is used as generational. If one eats a great "food item" it may not mean unprecedented nor does it change that item if the next time you eat that item it is not great. It is still a sense of generational. The food does not change in reality, that particular rendition (generational) was prepared differently thus changing each time one eats that particular food. Great Tribulation can only mean ongoing generational tribulation, that changes over time, and may even recycle certain types of tribulation throughout the different generations. The great tribulation can only cover the entire church age, and is not any one set time period. Any event is after the great tribulation and the tribulation of "those days". Past events would be considered all three types, as any past event was at one time after, during, and before tribulation that came after. The Cross is the only event that was not mid trib, or post trib. It was also the only pre-trib event of the great tribulation.

So all martyred who came out of the great tribulation, include Stephen up until the last soul immediately at the Second Coming. Incidently, the Second Coming is the 6th Seal event. The Second Coming is the event that ends the great tribulation. The Trumpets are not in the great tribulation. The Trumpets are the point of what the unprecedented tribulation consist of. The Trumpets and Thunders will be the event unlike any tribulation since Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, until the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. Any one who separates the rapture and the Second Coming are in direct contradiction to the Olivet Discourse and both of Paul's Second Coming passages. Paul gives the condition of the church in direct relationship to the Second Coming. Jesus in the Olivet Discourse only addresses the Second Coming to Jews and the pre-church disciples. Jesus did not have to distinguish the rapture from the Second Coming nor did He address the rapture at all, despite claims to the contrary. The Cross was still a future event even if only a few days away. The bigger picture would only be revealed as the church was growing and processing the Cross itself, much less the soon coming, return of Christ. Jesus had not even left yet. Paul revealed more after the church was still confused about the first resurrection.

To many what they call the GT is not the great tribulation. It is the unprecedented tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders. Christ claims He Himself will be physically on earth during that time, because it is an answer to His coming and the end. It is not an answer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. The Trumpets and Thunders were not accomplished in the first century. We all would be on the same page and post tribulation and there would have been no tribulation at all after that point. Obviously the NHNE comes after that tribulation, and literally 1000 years after. Neither has happened, and we do not declare it cannot happen. It is still future and has not happened yet.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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No one wants to have a specific definition on any tribulation. The GT is not the unprecedented tribulation. Great does not mean the same thing as "like no other". For instance a great grand parent does not mean an unprecedented like no other grand parent. It is used as generational. If one eats a great "food item" it may not mean unprecedented nor does it change that item if the next time you eat that item it is not great. It is still a sense of generational. The food does not change in reality, that particular rendition (generational) was prepared differently thus changing each time one eats that particular food. Great Tribulation can only mean ongoing generational tribulation, that changes over time, and may even recycle certain types of tribulation throughout the different generations. The great tribulation can only cover the entire church age, and is not any one set time period. Any event is after the great tribulation and the tribulation of "those days". Past events would be considered all three types, as any past event was at one time after, during, and before tribulation that came after. The Cross is the only event that was not mid trib, or post trib. It was also the only pre-trib event of the great tribulation.

So all martyred who came out of the great tribulation, include Stephen up until the last soul immediately at the Second Coming. Incidently, the Second Coming is the 6th Seal event. The Second Coming is the event that ends the great tribulation. The Trumpets are not in the great tribulation. The Trumpets are the point of what the unprecedented tribulation consist of. The Trumpets and Thunders will be the event unlike any tribulation since Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, until the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. Any one who separates the rapture and the Second Coming are in direct contradiction to the Olivet Discourse and both of Paul's Second Coming passages. Paul gives the condition of the church in direct relationship to the Second Coming. Jesus in the Olivet Discourse only addresses the Second Coming to Jews and the pre-church disciples. Jesus did not have to distinguish the rapture from the Second Coming nor did He address the rapture at all, despite claims to the contrary. The Cross was still a future event even if only a few days away. The bigger picture would only be revealed as the church was growing and processing the Cross itself, much less the soon coming, return of Christ. Jesus had not even left yet. Paul revealed more after the church was still confused about the first resurrection.

To many what they call the GT is not the great tribulation. It is the unprecedented tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders. Christ claims He Himself will be physically on earth during that time, because it is an answer to His coming and the end. It is not an answer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. The Trumpets and Thunders were not accomplished in the first century. We all would be on the same page and post tribulation and there would have been no tribulation at all after that point. Obviously the NHNE comes after that tribulation, and literally 1000 years after. Neither has happened, and we do not declare it cannot happen. It is still future and has not happened yet.

Hi the 70th week of Daniel is the thing that has started when the 1st seal is open. The seals are stage one of the tribulation which is ramped up after the opening of the 6th seal. Now God noted that the 70 weeks are for Daniels people and the holy city with the 6 objectives relating to them. Now in the middle of the week is Rev 13 and the beast will have dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months. This guy is the rider on the white horse coming when seal one is broken coming to conquer and by chapter 13 he has. In romans 11 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. The rapture may be as you say or it very well could be before the 1st seal is open and the 70th week begins. The LORD told us in Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Now I see in LUKE things that are global in scope and in Rev 6 the seals also are global and come upon the whole earth. In Rev 3 the church of Philedelphia is told Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Lastly the Bible teaches no man will know thee day or hour of the rapture and if it happens after the 6th seal then the rapture for all of church history could not happen until there was global hyperinflation and no peace anywhere on the earth and a total of 1/4 of the earth is killed off. This does not gel with teh concept of a thief in the night and the idea that as the days of Noah they were buying and selling right uo until the day the flood came. The tribulation comes suddenly after the rapture which comes after the birth pangs Jesus describes. The key for all of us is too be ready and in the faith; If I am wrong I will prepare my heart to endure but I do not think Ill be wrong as Jesus again said when you begin to see these signs look up for your redemption draws near; this again seems to be signalling an early exit before the 1st seal is open.
 
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Timtofly

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Hi the 70th week of Daniel is the thing that has started when the 1st seal is open. The seals are stage one of the tribulation which is ramped up after the opening of the 6th seal. Now God noted that the 70 weeks are for Daniels people and the holy city with the 6 objectives relating to them. Now in the middle of the week is Rev 13 and the beast will have dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months. This guy is the rider on the white horse coming when seal one is broken coming to conquer and by chapter 13 he has. In romans 11 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. The rapture may be as you say or it very well could be before the 1st seal is open and the 70th week begins. The LORD told us in Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Now I see in LUKE things that are global in scope and in Rev 6 the seals also are global and come upon the whole earth. In Rev 3 the church of Philedelphia is told Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Lastly the Bible teaches no man will know thee day or hour of the rapture and if it happens after the 6th seal then the rapture for all of church history could not happen until there was global hyperinflation and no peace anywhere on the earth and a total of 1/4 of the earth is killed off. This does not gel with teh concept of a thief in the night and the idea that as the days of Noah they were buying and selling right uo until the day the flood came. The tribulation comes suddenly after the rapture which comes after the birth pangs Jesus describes. The key for all of us is too be ready and in the faith; If I am wrong I will prepare my heart to endure but I do not think Ill be wrong as Jesus again said when you begin to see these signs look up for your redemption draws near; this again seems to be signalling an early exit before the 1st seal is open.
Daniel never specifically stated the 70th week as 7 years. It is formed as assumed as existing not with the other 69. What Gabriel pointed out was about the Messiah the Prince. I interpret the 70th week to be Christ on earth. The first 3.5 years was from His baptism to the Cross. The Second Coming is Christ on earth to complete the 70th week. If Christ is on the earth, the Second Coming happens prior to the time Christ is on the earth. Coming as Prince against Adam's flesh and blood, is why it is the GT. This last half of Daniel's 70th week is the final harvest. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The opening of the first 4 Seals is the tribulation of those days, but not the GT. Christ as Prince will be hear during the GT. The church is removed at the Second Coming as Paul describes.

Some want to place the Seals as being opened after the Cross. Some want the 70th week to be all in the 1st century. Some want it to be all at the Second Coming. The 42 months given to Satan is not part of the 70th week. It is an extended time period.

If one can prove the time from the 1st Seal to the 7th Trumpet is 3.5 years, that would be the last half of the 70th week. Since no one can know the exact day or hour of the Second Coming, the time of the Seals will take up more of the 3.5 years. The GT, Trumpets and Thunders, will keep getting shorter. Jesus states except that time be shortened, no one will be saved. The prayers of the church, elect, are working. Time for more church members to accept Christ is happening.
 
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iamlamad

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Just to set the record straight, the 70th week or "trib" as some want to call it, is marked by 7's: the 7th seal marks the start of the week, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Plain and simple.

As for the first seal; let's leave it in its context: Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down (Chapter 5) which occurred around 32 AD. That is when Jesus took the book and opened the first seal. Therefore, look for something righteous (the white horse) on earth around 32 AD.
 
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iamlamad

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If God isn't going to have the rapture before the tribulation why does God bring down the two witnesses? If the Body of Christ is still on earth the reasoning for their purpose isn't clear.
The rapture will take place pretrib. Then God will have the 144,000 as witnesses. They are caught up around the midpoint of the week and then God will have His Two Witnesses. Their purpose is very clear.
 
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Biblewriter

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I wonder, for the moderators here: since I believe the rapture will happen (in Revelation) between the 5th and 6th seal, does that automatically mean (as it did in the Rapture Ready forum) that I am not a true "pretrib?"

I know I am pretrib, for I know the "trib" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal.
That belief seems to makeyou mid trib.
 
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St. Helens

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ADMIN HAT ON
full

This thread has had some cleanup. Members who do not believe in the pretribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.
This is not a debate thread.

ADMIN HAT OFF
 
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iamlamad

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That belief seems to makeyou mid trib.
That is because many people imagine (in error) that "the trib" starts with the first seal.

What is the context for the first seal, if we back up verse by verse we see Jesus ascending and sending down the Holy Spirit. This shows us that Jesus got the book and opened the first seal at the time He sent out the disciples to all nations.

Rev, 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

If we back up further, we find Jesus just found worthy to take the book and open the seals, but further yet Jesus NOT found worthy. He was found worthy because He had just risen from the dead. If we back up further, we find the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet risen to send Him down. In short, John was seeing a vision of the throne room of his past - during the time while Jesus was still on earth, but to when He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

John does not start "the trib" until the 7th seal.
 
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Daniel never specifically stated the 70th week as 7 years. It is formed as assumed as existing not with the other 69. What Gabriel pointed out was about the Messiah the Prince. I interpret the 70th week to be Christ on earth. The first 3.5 years was from His baptism to the Cross. The Second Coming is Christ on earth to complete the 70th week. If Christ is on the earth, the Second Coming happens prior to the time Christ is on the earth. Coming as Prince against Adam's flesh and blood, is why it is the GT. This last half of Daniel's 70th week is the final harvest. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The opening of the first 4 Seals is the tribulation of those days, but not the GT. Christ as Prince will be hear during the GT. The church is removed at the Second Coming as Paul describes.

Some want to place the Seals as being opened after the Cross. Some want the 70th week to be all in the 1st century. Some want it to be all at the Second Coming. The 42 months given to Satan is not part of the 70th week. It is an extended time period.

If one can prove the time from the 1st Seal to the 7th Trumpet is 3.5 years, that would be the last half of the 70th week. Since no one can know the exact day or hour of the Second Coming, the time of the Seals will take up more of the 3.5 years. The GT, Trumpets and Thunders, will keep getting shorter. Jesus states except that time be shortened, no one will be saved. The prayers of the church, elect, are working. Time for more church members to accept Christ is happening.
 
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a week in Daniel is a week of sevens =7 years the other 69 are also 7 years each week

"....UNTIL MESSIAH THE PRINCE, there shall be
7 WEEKS + 62 WEEKS". (Dan.9:25).
This is 69 WEEKS
or 69 "SEVENS" of YEARS
69 x 7 x 360 = 173,880 DAYS.

Sir Robert Anderson's discovery that God keeps a holy record of earthly days based on a heavenly calendar of precisely twelve 30 day months and a holy perfect year of 360 days was sheer, God inspired, brilliance. This unlocked the mystery of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. As we saw in the article on Biblical time and the Hebrew calendar time information is issued from the throne of God as years of 360 days, seasons of 90 days, and months of 30 days. This is the way prophetic information is passed down to earth from the the God of Israel. The final half of the 70th week is certainly laid out in Holy Scripture in terms of 360 day years. This, as we shall discover, is also the way the first 69 weeks of the seventy weeks of Daniel is reckoned.

In this regard we have a wonderful discovery to report. We can show Biblical proof of biblical/prophetic time being issued as years of 360.0000 days. Revelation 12 lays out the exile and nurturing of the woman, (God's covenant people), during the latter half of the final seven years of this age. That 3.5 biblical year period is the final half of the 70th week of Daniel. The Holy Spirit has issued the time of the exile of the woman to us using two different time units. Rev.12:6 gives the time-span to us as 1260 days. Eight verses later there is a restatement of the feeding/nurturing of the woman. Rev.12:14 gives the time-span to us again. But this time it is given to us as a "time, times and a half a time" or three and a half years. The 1260 days divided by 3.5 = 360 days.

This passage is a hidden key to Bible prophecy. It is, in effect, a "Rosetta Stone" for biblical/prophetic time. This passage of scripture in Revelation 12 neatly and simply unlocks for us the timing puzzle for the Seventy Weeks. If the 70th week of Daniel is reckoned as 7 years of 360 days then we must conclude that the first 69 weeks of the Seventy weeks of Daniel will be the same. They too must also be years of 360 days.

Let us turn now to focus in on those first 69 weeks of the seventy weeks of Daniel.
Let us take a look again at our scripture and in particular verse 25.

Daniel 9:25
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

From this scripture we can deduce that the rebuilding of the walls and restoration of the sovereignty of Jerusalem would take 7 x 7 = 49 prophetic years. From that point on and for another 62 weeks or "sevens" or 7 x 62 = 434 biblical years the holy time-line would travel forward without pause until it came to a climactic moment in holy history. After the passage of 7 + 62 = 69 (weeks) or 69 x 7 = 483 biblical years Israel would see their Messiah. On this special day they could expect to see their Prince. Their Messiah would be at the gate.
And was He?

PALM SUNDAY.
DAY 173,880 MARKS THE TERMINUS OF THE 69 WEEKS.

Jesus/Yeshua had been among His people for three and a half years. He had ministered to them in many ways during that time. But on this day it would be different. As the Passover lambs were being inspected for sacrifice Israel's long promised Sacrifice Lamb was also being presented for inspection before the priests of Israel that year. On this day, (it was four days before the Passover), Jesus Christ/Yeshua Hamashiach would finally reveal Himself politically to His people. On this very day, (and on no other), they would see their long awaited Messiah come in through the eastern gate of Jerusalem, riding upon a donkey.
That day was "Palm Sunday".
It was day 173,880, and Messiah was arriving right on time. It was the tenth day of the Nisan/Passover moon.

the opening of the seals starts with the four horsemen this is the beginning of the 7 years because the first horsemen is on the white horse setting forth to conquer, this is the appearance of the antichrist, the treaty with the AC is also 7 years in which he breaks the covenant half way, Israel is also going to be burning the weapons from the Gog Magog war for 7 years. there are 2520 days till Christ returns from the beginning of the tribulation to the end we know exactly when He will come it's 3.5 years from the MIDDLE of the tribulation 1260 days, but we do not know the day or the hour of His coming for His bride.
 
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I wonder, for the moderators here: since I believe the rapture will happen (in Revelation) between the 5th and 6th seal, does that automatically mean (as it did in the Rapture Ready forum) that I am not a true "pretrib?"

I know I am pretrib, for I know the "trib" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal.
The 7 year tribulation starts it's countdown with the antichrist confirmation of the covenant with Israel and the many, that's the FIRST seal with the four horesmen, the rider on the white horse set forth to conquer IS the antichrist and he is revealed when the peace treaty is signed. daniel's 70th week is a week of 7's a week of seven years, the treaty is BROKEN by the antichrist at the halfway ponit 1260 days and 1260 days or 42 months. Jesus is in Heaven with His bride in the throne room at the opening of ALL the seals and ALL the seals are judgements upon the earth beginning with the first, the horseman on the white horse/the antichrist who will conquer the earth and require the mark of the beast at the halfway point.
 
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1) The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events.
The Bible must see the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

  1. Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air
    Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth


  2. Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged
    Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem


  3. Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies
    Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies


  4. Rapture — believers go to heaven
    Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth


  5. Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin
    Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established


  6. Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath
    Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath


  7. Rapture — no signs precede it
    Second Coming — many signs precede it


  8. Rapture — revealed only in New Testament
    Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments


  9. Rapture — deals with only the saved
    Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved


  10. Rapture — Satan remains free
    Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss
Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario.
 
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Biblewriter

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That is because many people imagine (in error) that "the trib" starts with the first seal.

What is the context for the first seal, if we back up verse by verse we see Jesus ascending and sending down the Holy Spirit. This shows us that Jesus got the book and opened the first seal at the time He sent out the disciples to all nations.

Rev, 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

If we back up further, we find Jesus just found worthy to take the book and open the seals, but further yet Jesus NOT found worthy. He was found worthy because He had just risen from the dead. If we back up further, we find the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet risen to send Him down. In short, John was seeing a vision of the throne room of his past - during the time while Jesus was still on earth, but to when He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

John does not start "the trib" until the 7th seal.
I agree that the seventieth week does not begin until "the beast" confirms the "covenant." And I agree that the seals and trumpets describe the upheavals that lead to his rise to power. So I guess you are right.
 
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