I keep being told that God objects to abortion...

[SPF]

And yet we do make that call anytime we get in an automobile, or decide not to social distance.

I think that just maybe there might be a difference between someone intentionally and purposefully walking into an abortion clinic and asking a doctor to intentionally and purposefully kill the human being inside their womb and a person driving a vehicle and having an unintentional car accident (called an accident for a reason) where someone dies.

If you can't see the distinction there then God help you.

 

[NerdGirl]

And yet we do make that call anytime we get in an automobile, or decide not to social distance.

No. Getting into a car is not "making the call to take lives". In any fashion. Nor is "not social distancing", but for God's sake, leave the stupid Covid argument out of this for once.

 

[Pamela_123]

...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

God commanded his people to completely destroy what was most likely a child sacrificing people.

 

[pescador]

God ordering a nation to be destroyed is not the same as someone deciding they just don't feel like having a baby.

"The point is that He sanctioned Infanticide, so there are no grounds for an outright ban on abortion." So you've already made up your mind, and aren't interested in a discussion. Got it.

Many abortions are performed to save the life of the mother (and by extension, her husband and children). If you object to this necessary medical procedure, may I ask why?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Many abortions are performed to save the life of the mother (and by extension, her husband and children). If you object to this necessary medical procedure, may I ask why?

It is rare in the 21st century that an abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. Not many abortions are performed for that reason only a tiny percentage of them. I can't speak for anyone else but I see that as self defense and certainly would not object to it.

 

[SPF]

Many abortions are performed to save the life of the mother (and by extension, her husband and children). If you object to this necessary medical procedure, may I ask why?

Virtually NO abortions are performed due to medical necessity. The vast majority - over 98.5% of abortions are performed for convenience reasons.

 

[pescador]

My wife was a certified nurse-midwife (CNM) for thirty years, so I know what I'm talking about. What I say is not media propaganda, it is based on decades of real-life experience with women of all ages, backgrounds, etc.

 

[SPF]

My wife was a certified nurse-midwife (CNM) for thirty years, so I know what I'm talking about. What I say is not media propaganda, it is based on decades of real-life experience with women of all ages, backgrounds, etc.

What you say isn’t based in reality. What you know are the few and far between “horror stories” that we all hear about.

But you’re 100% wrong when you assert that abortions for medical emergencies are somehow normal. They aren’t. 98.5% of all abortions are performed for convenience reasons. And those abortions, are immoral.

 

[pescador]

What you say isn’t based in reality. What you know are the few and far between “horror stories” that we all hear about.

But you’re 100% wrong when you assert that abortions for medical emergencies are somehow normal. They aren’t. 98.5% of all abortions are performed for convenience reasons. And those abortions, are immoral.

Actually, what I say is based in reality. Again, my wife's entire decades-long career was that of a certified nurse-midwife (CNM). She delivered thousands of babies and (unfortunately) assisted the ob/gyn that she worked for with some abortions. If that isn't reality, would you explain why not?

When you write that 98.5% of all abortions are performed for convenience reasons, what is the source of your statistic?

 

[SPF]

Actually, what I say is based in reality. Again, my wife's entire decades-long career was that of a certified nurse-midwife (CNM). She delivered thousands of babies and (unfortunately) assisted the ob/gyn that she worked for with some abortions. If that isn't reality, would you explain why not?

When you write that 98.5% of all abortions are performed for convenience reasons, what is the source of your statistic?

Google abortion statistics, they’re not hidden. States like Florida actually get detailed statistics from abortion clinics. The CDC also has easily accessible statistics.

Fact is, statistics show 98.5% of abortions are for convenience reasons.

the “statistics” you’re providing are nothing more than “this is what I think from what I’ve seen from my wife” You’re not really bringing anything credible to the table.

 

[pescador]

Google abortion statistics, they’re not hidden. States like Florida actually get detailed statistics from abortion clinics. The CDC also has easily accessible statistics.

Fact is, statistics show 98.5% of abortions are for convenience reasons.

the “statistics” you’re providing are nothing more than “this is what I think from what I’ve seen from my wife” You’re not really bringing anything credible to the table.

I looked at the CDC abortion statistics. There were no data supporting your statement that 98.5% of abortions are for convenience reasons. So, "fact is" is actually "fact isn't".

Here is an excerpt from the CDC report: From 2009 to 2018, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 22%, 24%, and 16%, respectively. In 2017, the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased to historic lows for the period of analysis for all three measures. However, compared with 2017, in 2018, the total number and rate of reported abortions increased by 1%, and the abortion ratio increased by 2%. [a very slight increase]

Are the CDC data credible enough for you? BTW, my wife (and all medical personnel) are required to keep their medical information current. It's disappointing that you can't believe either the CDC or somebody who was active and kept current in her profession. My wife was on the front line of birthing for three decades and knows the truth about abortions. What are your credentials?

 

[SPF]

I looked at the CDC abortion statistics. There were no data supporting your statement that 98.5% of abortions are for convenience reasons. So, "fact is" is actually "fact isn't".

Here is an excerpt from the CDC report: From 2009 to 2018, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 22%, 24%, and 16%, respectively. In 2017, the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased to historic lows for the period of analysis for all three measures. However, compared with 2017, in 2018, the total number and rate of reported abortions increased by 1%, and the abortion ratio increased by 2%. [a very slight increase]

Are the CDC data credible enough for you? BTW, my wife (and all medical personnel) are required to keep their medical information current. It's disappointing that you can't believe either the CDC or somebody who was active and kept current in her profession. My wife was on the front line of birthing for three decades and knows the truth about abortions. What are your credentials?

As I said, Florida is a really good benchmark as they record a reason for every abortion performed. In 2018, the percentage of abortions performed due to life threatening emergencies were as follows:

.27% The woman's life was endangered by the pregnancy
1.0% There was a serious fetal abnormality
1.48% The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy

Keep in mind that out of the above, in only 0.27% of abortions was there an actual known life or death situation with the mother. The 1.48% where the mother's life was "threatened" was not necessarily immediately endangering.

Also, the Guttmacher institute, which by the way is a pro-choice group also provides statistics. According their one of their studies:

<0.5% Victim of rape
3% Fetal health problems
4% Physical health problems
4% Would interfere with education or career
7% Not mature enough to raise a child
8% Don't want to be a single mother
19% Done having children
23% Can't afford a baby
25% Not ready for a child
6% Other

In other words, the above say that 92% of abortions are done for convenience reasons, and that 4% are done because of health complications with the mother, and 3% because of health complications with the fetus. But what they don't break down is whether or not any of those complications are life threatening. That's why the Florida statistics are a little better because they are a little more specific and make the necessary distinctions that Guttmacher didn't.

I would rather not get bogged down with statistics and miss what actually matters. And what actually matters is that the overwhelming majority of all abortions are performed for convenience reasons, and it's these specific abortions that Christians should be unified about in recognizing and calling out as immoral and wrong.

 

[SPF]

My wife was on the front line of birthing for three decades and knows the truth about abortions.

Unless your wife was on the front lines of aborting, I don't see why a mid-wife would be an authority on abortion.

 

[parousia70]

Virtually NO abortions are performed due to medical necessity. The vast majority - over 98.5% of abortions are performed for convenience reasons.

650,00 abortions per year in USA average.

SPF asserts that 10,000 of them (1.5%) are not for convenience reasons, and therefore, presumably, perfectly fine with SPF that 10,000 abortions per year continue unabated.

SPF calls 10,000 innocent, aborted babies per year "Virtually nothing".

(I'm not @tulc, but I thought that was interesting)

* edit to add updated percentages provided by SPF in post #192:
it seems now up to 7% of abortions are not for convenience according to the stats SPF provided in post #192

That's now upwards of 40,000 + aborted, innocent babies per year that SPF calls "Virtually Nothing".
FORTY THOUSAND

 

[SPF]

You're barking up the wrong tree buddy.

SPF asserts that 10,000 of them (1.5%) are not for convenience reasons, and therefore, presumably, perfectly fine with SPF that 10,000 abortions per year continue unabated.

Have I ever argued anywhere at any time or said anything about any abortion ever being "perfectly fine". It gets tiresome having to waste time defending against something I've never said. There's not much intellectual integrity coming from people who do that.

Pro-abortion advocates attempt to frame the vast majority of all abortions as medically necessary. This just isn't the case. The case is that the overwhelming majority - 98.5% - of abortions are performed for convenience reasons.

My point is that it should be easy for Christians to agree that at the very least the 98.5% of abortions performed for convenience reasons are immoral and wrong.

Based upon what you said, I don't think you disagree? So get off me and stop creating a straw-man argument to make yourself feel good.

 

[parousia70]

You're barking up the wrong tree buddy.

Have I ever argued anywhere at any time or said anything about any abortion ever being "perfectly fine". It gets tiresome having to waste time defending against something I've never said. There's not much intellectual integrity coming from people who do that.

Pro-abortion advocates attempt to frame the vast majority of all abortions as medically necessary. This just isn't the case. The case is that the overwhelming majority - 98.5% - of abortions are performed for convenience reasons.

My point is that it should be easy for Christians to agree that at the very least the 98.5% of abortions performed for convenience reasons are immoral and wrong.

Based upon what you said, I don't think you disagree? So get off me and stop creating a straw-man argument to make yourself feel good.

Well, you did claim, based on your own provided stats, that anywhere from 10,000- 50,000 abortions per year is “virtually nothing”
Virtually nothing?
How callus. Especially for a professed pro life advocate.
I find it shameful, and very hypocritical.

It’s most definitely the right tree to be barking up.
And sunlight is the best disinfectant.

 

[pescador]

Unless your wife was on the front lines of aborting, I don't see why a mid-wife would be an authority on abortion.

I know that you don't see why a midwife would be an authority on abortion, but she was "on the front lines" of the OR, including both live births and termination, thousands of times. She knows the entire pregnancy and birth situation in its many variations.

BTW, what are your credentials?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I know that you don't see why a midwife would be an authority on abortion, but she was "on the front lines" of the OR, including both live births and termination, thousands of times. She knows the entire pregnancy and birth situation in its many variations.

BTW, what are your credentials?

So you support outlawing abortion for convenience reasons then?

 

[parousia70]

So you support outlawing abortion for convenience reasons then?

I'll go a step further.
I support laws that require all miscarriages' be buried in a cemetery or remains cremated.
I also support a national registry for all women of childbearing age so we can closely monitor their mensural cycle to make sure if they happen to get pregnant and "Miscarry" that said miscarriage was not caused by any negligence on the part of the mother.

Since "miscarriages" outnumber abortions by at least double in this country, we must do something to insure that any that are the result of negligence of the mother are properly punished.

All women of Childbearing age should be required to submit a sample of their menstrual tissue to the national government registry every month for examination, and if fetal tissue is found, then an investigation into the behavior of the mother during the pregnancy be launched, and if negligence is found, the mother punished.

I likewise support basic restrictions on behavior of pregnant women during their pregnancy. They should be allowed to eat only approved foods, at approved amounts, of course making it illegal for pregnant women to smoke or drink alcohol, and they should be restricted by law from partaking of any hazardous activity, such as most sports, hazardous activities such as Ice skating, walking on the snow or ice, driving in rainy or low visibility conditions, severe temperature changes, any amusement park rides, mowing the lawn or operating dangerous machinery, etc... only when Government steps in and regulates this type of the behavior of pregnant women every hour of every day can we know we are doing everything possible to protect the unborn. Government knows what's best for the unborn, after all, and we clearly, demonstrably can't trust women to make these correct decisions for themselves.

I'm certain All truly pro life advocates would gladly join me in supporting such basic protections for the unborn.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'll go a step further.
I support laws that require all miscarriages' be buried in a cemetery or remains cremated.
I also support a national registry for all women of childbearing age so we can closely monitor their mensural cycle to make sure if they happen to get pregnant and "Miscarry" that said miscarriage was not caused by any negligence on the part of the mother.

Since "miscarriages" outnumber abortions by at least double in this country, we must do something to insure that any that are the result of negligence of the mother are properly punished.

All women of Childbearing age should be required to submit a sample of their menstrual tissue to the national government registry every month for examination, and if fetal tissue is found, then an investigation into the behavior of the mother during the pregnancy be launched, and if negligence is found, the mother punished.

I likewise support basic restrictions on behavior of pregnant women during their pregnancy. They should be allowed to eat only approved foods, at approved amounts, of course making it illegal for pregnant women to smoke or drink alcohol, and they should be restricted by law from partaking of any hazardous activity, such as most sports, hazardous activities such as Ice skating, walking on the snow or ice, driving in rainy or low visibility conditions, severe temperature changes, any amusement park rides, mowing the lawn or operating dangerous machinery, etc... only when Government steps in and regulates this type of the behavior of pregnant women every hour of every day can we know we are doing everything possible to protect the unborn. Government knows what's best for the unborn, after all, and we clearly, demonstrably can't trust women to make these correct decisions for themselves.

I'm certain All truly pro life advocates would gladly join me in supporting such basic protections for the unborn.

Okay. I get it. Complete and unrestricted access to abortion for any reason.