Why so many perversions in the priesthood (not an attack)?

[Droobie]

Point taken Wolseley...

 

[Wolseley]

Sorry for the break---Mama had supper on the table and blood in her eye.....

MOLESTING MINISTER-BROTHERS CONVICTED. Youth minister Don McCary, 48, was sentenced to 72 years of prison for molesting 4 boys at his Baptist Church in Chattanooga, Tenn. His twin brother Ron McCary, a Christian comedian and pastor, is in prison after committing aggravated rape on a boy, 6. Their older brother Richard McCary spent 2 years in the California prisons in the 1980s after conviction on 6 charges of child molestation. Explains sex offender therapist Deloris Roys, Don McCary "had a perfect camouflage ... For the person who uses religion as a camouflage, it gives them the mantle of being an OK or holy person. We all imbue religious people with the idea they wouldn't hurt us. They have instant authority, a power we don't have, a mantle of respect." Don McCary had been youth/choir director for 15 years at Central Baptist Church of Hixson, Tenn. He recorded lewd conversations with young boys and gave copies to his brother Ron in jail. Source: _Birmingham News_ 5/9/92.

$10 MILLION SOUGHT FROM BAPTISTS. Five civil lawsuits asking for $10 million in damages were filed against the Southern Baptist Convention for sexual assaults by convicted minister Donald McCary, of Chattanooga, sentenced in April to 72 years in prison for assaulting 5 boys. James Guenther, general counselor for the SBC in Nashville, shrugged off the suits: "We've probably had a dozen of these cases where a plaintiff has undertaken to show that SBC controls a minister." He says no SBC agency beyond the level of the congregation has legal or disciplinary authority over pastors. McCary's twin brother is also in prison for abusing children; their older brother is on parole for similar charges. Source: _Birmingham News_ 8/21/92.

BAPTIST CHARGED WITH INDECENCY. Charged with indecency for fondling a preteen girl in 1991 was Norman "Buddy" Wilcoxen, 60, former pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Bastrop. Source: _Austin American-Statesman_ 10/17/92.

POLYGAMOUS HILLBILLY PREACHER CHARGED. The leader of the Evangelistic Tabernacle in Martinsville was charged with felonious seduction & taking indecent liberties with a minor when he "married" a 16-year-old high school junior. Although already married, he was not charged with polygamy since he did not legally marry the teenager. Rev. Elwood Gallimore, 42, was also charged with performing marriage ceremonies without a license. His favorite topic for sermons is polygamy, citing such polygamous biblical characters as David & Solomon. He said the _Bible_ will be his only defense during the trial. Gallimore, whose dutiful 42-year-old wife was hospitalized for "nerves" after the second "marriage" was proposed, says he is being prosecuted by "jealous" men. A magistrate ordered him to stay away from the teenager on Jan. 19. Source: _Washington Post_ 1/21,27,28/92.

PROMINENT EPISCOPALIAN REMOVED. Nationally known Rev. W. Graham Pulkingham, now living in Virginia, was suspended temporarily from the Episcopalian priesthood after admitting he initiated a sexual relationship with a man he was counseling, destroying the man's marriage. Church officials asked everybody to pray. Source: _Denver Post_ 8/92.

METHODIST LEADER ADMITS IMPROPER RELATIONS. Newly retired Rev. Edward W. Bauman, once named one of the country's top preachers by _Time_ Magazine, admitted in a September letter to the Foundry United Methodist Church in D.C. to "relationships of a sexual nature ... with several women in the congregation". Bauman, 65, has a TV show, "Bauman _Bible_ Telecast", airing worldwide. The admission came only have 2 women filed grievances with Bishop Joseph Yeakel; one had sought counseling from Bauman. Bauman agreed to seek counseling at Johns Hopkins Hospital & to retire. After a 3rd woman came forward. Bauman agreed to write a letter to the congregation & make financial restitution to 2 women. Bauman insists the relationships were "fully consenting" & "could not be interpreted as harassment". Among Bauman's congregants were Sen. Bob Dole & Elizabeth Dole, & former Sen. George McGovern. According to the national United Methodist newsletter, 13% of pastors in 5 Protestant denominations acknowledged having intercourse with parishioners. Source: _Washington Post_ 9/18/92.

LUTHERAN PRINCIPAL ACCUSED. Denying charges of indecent liberties with a student is John P. Rossow, who resigned in March as principal of Central Lutheran Christian School, Tacoma. Now a senior, the youth said Russow took him on outings and French kissed him for hours when he was a 5th grader, and tried to touch him at a state park after plying him with whiskey. A teenager said, "He had kids at his house a lot." Source: _Morning News Tribune_ 4/8/92.

METHODIST MINISTER PLEADS GUILTY. Rev. Lawrence "Larry" E. Trim, 55, of Evangelical Methodist Church in Methow, pleaded guilty to 3rd degree rape of a child, in connection with an assault of a boy, then 13. Source: _Wenatchee World_ 9/17/92.

CONVICTED MOLESTER RECRUITING BOYS. A convicted child molester barred in Pennsylvania from recruiting choirboys to tour in Europe is now operating out of Morgantown, WV. John B. Shallenberger, 74, was convicted in 1985 of indecent assault, indecent exposure and corrupting the morals of a Dutch choirboy, 11. He was convicted in 1961 and 1975 on similar charges. In 1990, a judge ordered him to reveal his criminal record while recruiting boys and to pay a $5,000 fine for violating a 1978 agreement with the Bureau of Consumer Protection to reveal his background. He has not paid the fine or signed the petition. Shallenberger insists, "Every choirmaster and every music teacher in the country knows of my criminal record ... You would be surprised at how many parents beg me to take a second brother on tour." His July in Paris tour was handled through the Children's Choir Federation. Source: _Pittsburgh Post-Gazette_ 2/15/92.

CONVICTED MOLESTER STOPS TOUR. Following an investigation by the West Virginia attorney general's office, convicted child molester John B. Shallenberger, 74, folded his Children's Choir Federation, soliciting boys from grades 4-7 to take 2-week singing tours in Europe. He had been convicted in 1975 & 1961 for child molestation. In 1991, Pennsylvania authorities charged him with ignoring a court order to reveal his child molestation convictions to the parents of recruited children, so he moved to West Virginia. Shallenberger has moved back to Pennslyvania & is running an elevator repair company. Source: _Charleston Gazette_ 7/8/92.

MINISTER PLEADS GUILTY TO ABUSING NIECE. Baptist minister Rev. Ernest Lee Rowsey, 51, of Wharton Missionary Baptist Church in Bim, pleaded guilty to 1 count of 1st degree sexual abuse, involving his niece. Originally, he was charged with molesting 2 nieces between 1976-1982, but they agreed to drop all but one charge against their uncle. The kids were molested for 6 years starting from ages 5 & 7. Rowley's sister also said he molested her as long ago as 1969, but at that time, child sexual abuse was a misdemeanor, & the statute of limitations has expired. Source: _Charleston Gazette_ 11/1/92.

"NOT A TIME FOR JUDGMENT." The arrest of Brookfield minister Richard O. Bidwell for lewd & lascivious conduct is "not a time for judgment" but "a time when we in the Christian community need to offer our support & our prayers," opines Rev. Kenneth Wheeler, an official with the Greater Milwaukee Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Bidwell, pastor of Calvary Lutheran Church, married with children, was arrested at a park in the afternoon with his genitals exposed, in the company of another exposed man. Source: _Milwaukee Sentinel_ 7/14/92.

NEW BRUNSWICK PREACHER CONVICTED. Calling his crimes a "most sick, disturbing and tragic matter", Justice Thomas Riordon convicted Pentecostal preacher Rev. Aubrey McCallister of touching, fondling and sodomizing a young girl for 10 years, beginning when she was 7. The assaults took place at his home and church Sunday school in Minto, New Brunswick. He was convicted of the same offense 2 years ago and sentenced to 5 years in jail but was granted a new trial. His loyal congregation packed the courtroom during both trials, and had to be warned not to repeat their angry outburst. Followers shook the convict's hand and said they were sticking by him. The victim, now 20, was jeered by the minister's congregation. McCallister called her "daddy's little girl" and rewarded her with Oreo cookies or told her to pray for forgiveness after each encounter. "Aren't we sneaky? If we ever get caught, mom would kick us both out," he told her. Source: _Telegraph Journal_, Saint John, N.B., 3/6/92.

"GOD HAS FORGIVEN ME FOR WHAT I'VE DONE." Nova Scotia religious leader Harold Jollimore, 63, convicted in December of sexual and indecent assault of young girls, was sentenced to 2 years in prison. He preached biblical passages while sexually abusing neighbor girls. One 9-year-old who had a breakdown after 8 years of abuse has been in therapy since 1978. He attracted children by running a candy and soda pop store on his property. He told the judge, "God has forgiven me for what I've done," saying he doesn't understand why the victims haven't been able to "put this behind them". He was also ordered to take psychiatric counseling during a 3-year probation. Source: _The Spectator_ 2/11/92.

We're getting close to being done....

 

[Wolseley]

"HORRIFIC" HARASSMENT IN CHURCH OF CANADA PROMPTS STUDY. The task force on sexual abuse, exploitation, and harassment urged the Church of Canada to develop a code of ethics for ministers because of ~horrific proportions" of sexual harassment in the church. The panel said women are more likely to be sexually harassed in the church than in the workplace. "A five-denominational study [in the U.S.] conducted in 1987 found 5.5% of therapists had sex involving intercourse with their clients, while 12.6% of clergy admitted to sexual involvement including intercourse with their parishioners," reported Rev. Peter Lougheed of Evanville, Ontario. Many ministers are engaging in personal counseling without any training or codes of ethics, said Walter Faquharson, moderator of the United Church.

LUTHERAN TEACHER CHARGED. Arrested for sexually assaulting boys at John Calvin Christian School in Burlington, Ontario is Theodore Richard Vanderveen, 30, who taught 4th grade for 4 years. Source: _Spectator_ 3/2/92.

CHURCH SUED FOR CHOIRMASTER'S ASSAULTS. St. George's Cathedral & the Anglican church are being sued over a choirmaster's sexual assaults on choirboys. John Gallienne is serving a 6-1/2 year sentence for abusing boys. Now 17 plaintiffs are suing, claiming damages, plus interest & costs. The suit in part claims church officials were aware of Gallienne's misconduct & held at least 5 meetings over a 6- year period to discuss them, yet took no action to protect boys. Source: _Ottawa Citizen_ 11/11/92.

ANGLICAN PRIEST SUSPENDED WITH PAY. Owen Sound minister Jim Francom was suspended With pay from St. George's Anglican Church after being charged in July with rape & assault of a girl under 14. The assaults were alleged to have occurred in London, Ontario between 1975-1984 Source: _Ottawa Citizen_ 8/18/92.

PASTOR GETS 6 MONTHS. Pastor Ed Brennan, 45, of Whitehorse Christian Bible Fellowship Society, got 6 months in jail and 3 years' probation for sexually assaulting a young married parishioner in the Yukon. Source: _Spectator_ 12/17/91.

ANGLICAN BISHOP CHARGED FOR SOLICITATION. Anglican Bishop Owen Dowling, 57, of Canberra and Goulburn, was recently charged with soliciting a male off-duty cop for prostitution. Source: _Christian Century_ 5/13/92.

New South Wales Anglican priest Eric William Griffith, 50, of Gratton, was jailed for 18 months after pleading guilty to 3 counts of indecent assault & 4 counts of gross indecency against a boy, 14. Source: _Courier-Mail_ 11/15/92.

SETTLEMENT SHROUDS BAPTIST CASE. A secret settlement was reached just before a civil suit went to jury against Moffett Road Baptist Church minister Henry Hobson, Mobile, for sexually abusing a girl, 14. Hobson admitted having sexual intercourse with the girl he referred to as an adopted daughter, once when she accompanied him on church "visitation". He admitted she "wanted out", but called her a "pleasant diversion". At first he denied her accusations and asked her to say she had lied, for "damage control". He resigned in April 1991 after a suicide attempt when the girl confided in the youth pastor about him. Attorney Robert Cunningham, Jr. told jurors that many church members shunned the 9th grader, blaming her. His attorney argued, "It certainly was not part of his job to have sexual intercourse with her, and therefore the church is not responsible," adding: "He thought it was better she learn about sex from him rather than some young boy at school." Source: _Mobile Register_ 2/12/93.

CULT LEADER GETS 16 YEARS. Fugitive religious leader James Randazzo, convicted in 1989 of sexual exploitation of children, was sentenced to 16 years in prison. Founder of Spiral of Friends cult, he videotaped sex sessions with teenaged children during "therapy". His wife Colleen is serving an 8-year prison term. Randazzo had skipped the country, but was nabbed last fall in Hungary. Source: _Rocky Mountain News_ 1/30/93.

MAYER (FINALLY) GETS 3 YEARS. The Rev. Robert E. Mayer, 53, implicated in numerous cases of sexually abusing minors, was sentenced to 3 years in prison for molesting a girl, 13. Four men also testified during the trial about Mayer's advances toward them 9 years ago, when they were 13 and 14. "The evidence indicates a long history of sexually inappropriate conduct with children and adults," said prosecutor Mark Cavins. "This crime was not committed on impulse or spur of the moment." Mayer is the first priest in Cook Co. to be sentenced to prison. He continued to maintain his innocence, pleading for mercy: "As God is my witness, I was never alone with the girl," Mayer told the judge. Judge Thomas Durkin replied, "God is not your judge today." Source: _Chicago Tribune_ 2/6/93.

YOUTH MINISTER CHARGED. Garden City Church of Christ youth minister Rev. Cameron K. Huffman, 41, was charged with 21 counts of child molestation for molesting a young boy for a year. Huffman had admitted to being a pedophile during a counseling session. When the church in Columbus was notified of Huffman's admission, it fired him and informed the congregation, also calling police. Police received complaints against Rev. Huffman from other Indiana cities and states, but the 5-year statute of limitations has hampered some investigations. Source: _Indianapolis Star_ 1/28/93.

METHODIST MINISTER ASSAULTS DEPRESSED TEENAGER? A lawsuit filed in February accuses United Methodist minister R. Gene Voss of sexually assaulting a female teenager during counseling sessions for depression at the First United Methodist Church, Crawfordsville. In 1984 her minister began fondling the 15-year-old, initiating intercourse when she was 16. "Over the next four years Gene Voss raped the plaintiff over 60 times," says the lawsuit. The woman has incurred more than $65,000 in treatment for abuse. Voss gave up his minister credentials in 1991. She is also suing the Crawfordsville church and the United Methodist South Indiana Conference. "You can say anything in a lawsuit," was the cavalier response of the conference's legal advisor. Source: _Indianapolis Star_ 2/4/93.

LUTHERAN TEACHER CHARGED. St. Paul's Lutheran elementary school teacher Gerald J. Bauer, Jr., 31, was charged with molesting a student, 12, during a visit to his home. The Farmington Hills teacher was charged with 1st and 2nd degree criminal sexual conduct. Source: _Detroit Free Press_ 2/13/93.

MORE CHARGES DISMISSED AGAINST BAPTIST. Washtenaw Co. Dist. Judge Thomas F. Shea threw out 2 charges of 1st-degree criminal sexual conduct against Baptist deacon Mark Foeller, leaving 6 counts of criminal sexual conduct. The deacon and bus driver at North Sharon Baptist Church is accused of raping a boy, 9, twice, at the church, which has a campaign to bus low-income children from 4 counties to its Sunday school and church camp. The dismissals follow earlier dismissals against assistant pastor Timothy Lee Leonard, 33, originally charged with 12 similar counts. Judges dismissed all his charges, saying the alleged victims were either too young to testify or that their testimony was too vague. At least one family will file a civil lawsuit against the North Sharon Baptist Church and Leonard, according to Ann Arbor attorney Mark A. Hopper. "We will sue the church for negligent hiring and negligent retention of those workers." Leonard has been invited back to the church and is directing its music programs. A mother told a reporter she was "stunned" and "numb" by the judge's decision. Shea ruled that a 9-year-old could not testify about being raped in the church nursery, because she couldn't say on which day it happened. Source: _Jackson Citizen Patriot_ 2/5&18/93.

MOLESTER STILL LISTED IN CHURCH ANNUAL. A Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod pastor who admitted to sexually molesting a Duluth boy and who is being sued for molestation by 3 others, is still listed as a pastor in good standing in the synod's 1993 Lutheran Annual. Rev. Daniel Reeb admitted in 1991 that he molested a parishioner, 13, several times in the 1960s, and made official testimony about it to church officials. His victim and several others have filed lawsuits. Reeb resigned a year ago, but was put on "restricted status" and can still preach. He moved to Cheyenne, Wyoming. Source: _News-Tribune_ 3/3/93.

LUTHERAN PASTOR ADMITS SEX WITH BOY. Cloquet pastor Wayne Vetter of Zion Lutheran Church pleaded guilty to 1st degree criminal sexual contact with a juvenile. He is in counseling for sexual abuse and is expected to be sentenced to a correctional center. He served ministries in Madison, Wis., and Grand Forks, N.D. A man came forward to say Vetter had molested him in Grand Forks, but the statute of limitations has expired. Vetter admitted to a habit of anonymous Sex in public places. Source: _Duluth News-Tribune_3/19/93.

POLL REVEALS WIDESPREAD ABUSE. 7% of Minnesotan protestants personally know someone who has been sexually abused by a member of the clergy, while 5% of Catholics did, and 2% say they have been touched by a clergyperson in a way that made them uncomfortable, according to a _Star Tribune_/WCCO-TV Minnesota Poll phone survey of 1,222 Minnesotans was taken from Jan. 26 to Feb. 5. 1991 survey of Minnesota clergy showed 15% of mainline Protestant clergy admitted to an affair outside of. Source: _Star Tribune_ 2/21/93

CHARGES REDUCED FOR PASTOR. Third-degree sexual assault charges were reduced to attempted contributing to delinquency of a minor against Beatrice pastor Rev. Norman Scott Callahan, 50, associate pastor of Centenary United Methodist Church. He is accused of sexual contact with a boy, 15, and was suspended for 60 days from his post. Source: _Omaha World-Herald_ 3/20/93.

MENNONITE REV. RAPED DAUGHTER? The Rev. Eugenio Matos, 61, was charged with 18 counts of repeatedly raping his daughter over an 11- year period. The pastor of the Spanish Mennonite Church in Trenton has 12 children. He is accused of sexually assaulting the girl when she was 5 in 1981, continuing the abuse until his arrest in March, 1992. Source: _Trenton Times_ 2/4/93.

EPISCOPAL PRIEST CHARGED WITH SEXUAL BATTERY. An Episcopal priest, Douglas Hodges, 57, was charged with sexual battery, a 3rd-degree felony, in a 1991 incident involving a parishioner in counseling. A Fostoria woman and her husband, who said Hodges had sexual intercourse with her during counseling, had previously filed a civil suit against Hodges, Bishop James Moodey of the Episcopal diocese of Ohio, Trinity Episcopal Church, Fostoria, and the owner of the counseling center. An episcopal official says Hodges is no longer a priest, but declined further comment. Source: _Toledo Blade_ 2/11/93.

Glazes your eyes, doesn't it???? More.....

 

[Wolseley]

And the finale:

PARISH SUPPORTS PORTLAND PREYING PASTOR. Prominent pastor Rev. Willie B. Smith, 64, former president of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, is accused of sexually abusing 3 teenage girls at First African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church. He was charged with 11 counts of 1st degree sexual abuse, a felony, and 1 count of 3rd degree sexual abuse, a misdemeanor. Pastors in the community werequick to speak about his "exemplary" work. Two of the victims told police Smith had cornered them in his church office and groped them. A third said she was repeatedly abused by Smith for 16 months, beginning in September 1990. The victims were 12, 13, and 17 at the time of the incidents. Almost every parishioner lined up to hug, kiss and reassure Smith following the arrest. Source: _Oregonian_ 3/13,15/93.

EPISCOPAL PRIEST, "ABOVE REPROACH", SUED, INVESTIGATED. Six women including one filing a $4 million civil lawsuit have accused ByronBruce Newell, 60, former assistant pastor of Falls Church Episcopal Church, of sexual molestation or advances. The plaintiff alleges Newell forced her into sexual activities during counseling sessions at the church for 2 years, telling her that her sexual feelings toward him would bring her closer to God. Episcopal officials said they removed him from his pastoral role and ordered counseling after learning of complaints by women in 1988. However, they only launched a full inquiry last September. Newell, now a fundraiser for Trinity Episcopal School for the Ministry near Pittsburgh, is named in the suit, along with the church, the diocese, the bishop and church pastor John W. Yates ll. According to the suit, Yates told the woman what happened during counseling was her fault, and did not act on complaints from 5 other women that Newell had verbally or physically harassed them. The dean of the seminary insisted Newell "has more than amply repaid our trust. His behavior has been above reproach". Source: _Washington Post_ 3/20/93.

PASTOR ADMITS ABUSE OF GIRLS. Admitting having intercourse with a female teenager and indecently touching another, Rev. Larry G. Johnson pleaded guilty to 2 counts against him dating from 1977-79 while pastor of Buffalo Wesleyan Church. He recently resigned his position as superintendent of the Dakota District of the Wesleyan Church Source: _Rapid City Journal_ 2/28/93.

1988, Lancashire, England. Congregational Church Minister Garvock convicted of raping 4 yr. old girl.

1988, Winchester, England. 2 Anglican vicars, a choirmaster, a solicitor, and an already convicted molester jailed on 21 charges of sexually abusing boys at church outings, YMCA and churchyard.

1990, Solihull, England. Pentecostal Minister D. Stenhouse jailed on 5 charges of indecent assault on boys aged 12 to 15.

1991, England. Baptist Minister Ashby Breneman jailed for molesting 6 boys at his Christian Youth camp.

Whew.

You'll notice that this list dates mostly from the early 90's; there have been further cases since then.

So: to recap----this is not a Catholic problem, nor is it a Protestant problem. It is a human problem.

ZooMom, again, I thank you for your hard work. Your list is indispensable.

Peace,
----Wolseley.

 

[JeTmAn]

I never said it was a Catholic problem. I asked why this problem is infecting the priesthood. I never said that people of other religions don't do this. One thing I noticed though.....it seems that priests go more about boys, whereas more of the Protestants molest girls. This is something else I can't figure out....I mean, if they're going to molest someone there are probably lots of hurting women that could be easily taken advantage of, why do this with the altar boys?

BTW, where a list of ONLY non-Catholic molestations come from? Was there never any info about what the priests or doing, or did it concentrate only on matters outside the Catholic church?

-JeTmAn

 

[GreenEyedLady]

In the paper i read today there was 14 priest in the SAME area being chaged with sexual misconduct......AND 2 of the priests who were chrged are still in the CHURCH!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh
Yes it is a human problem...but JeTm....was asking about the catholic church. Why are you so defensive Wosley???Geeeze...BTW.....my fingers hurt from scrolling and NOT stopping on your posts...LOL

 

[nyj]

Do I have to put up with this crap on every friggin board I go to? Dang, I may as well just hang out on Former Catholics For Christ and put up with the taunts of "pedophile by association".

You know, I don't know why people sexually abuse children, maybe it's genetic, maybe it's because they were abused as well, maybe they have an urge they feel they cannot control. Who knows?

Is the Church aware of what happened? Yes.

Is the Church trying to rectify the situation, from what I have read... yes.

So... what exactly is your point, and why do you even friggin care? All I know is, it's been proven time and again that this is not a Catholic problem, it is a human problem. Why people continually drop the flaming paper bag full of dog doo-doo on the Catholic doorstep though is beyond me. Guess the tree growing out of their eye hasn't completely blinded them yet.

 

[JeTmAn]

Originally posted by nyj
Do I have to put up with this crap on every friggin board I go to? Dang, I may as well just hang out on Former Catholics For Christ and put up with the taunts of "pedophile by association".

You know, I don't know why people sexually abuse children, maybe it's genetic, maybe it's because they were abused as well, maybe they have an urge they feel they cannot control. Who knows?

Is the Church aware of what happened? Yes.

Is the Church trying to rectify the situation, from what I have read... yes.

So... what exactly is your point, and why do you even friggin care? All I know is, it's been proven time and again that this is not a Catholic problem, it is a human problem. Why people continually drop the flaming paper bag full of dog doo-doo on the Catholic doorstep though is beyond me. Guess the tree growing out of their eye hasn't completely blinded them yet.

Look, would you at least read the posts before flaming? I never said that nobody else had this problem, but my chief interest here is in the Catholic priesthood. It is especially interesting to me that priests are most often (it seems) involved with little boys. Why is that, and what is it that allows this kind of conduct to occur so often in the first place? All our godly men, priests, pastors, and what have you are supposed to be beacons of God's light, above reproach. Instead of complaining, contribute something to the discussion and try to answer my question.

-JeTmAn

 

[Spurious]

Originally posted by JeTmAn
It could certainly be taken that way, but look at my original post. I never disparaged the Catholic church in any way. All I mentioned was the facts with what's going on right now. I took this to the Catholic forum because Catholics ought to know this issue best and I want to know what they think about it. If this was in the interfaith forum, you KNOW Protestants (of which I am one) would be jumping all over the Catholic church, and that's not what I want.

Friend JeTmAn, I will accept your honest naivete for what it appears to be. However, consider that this forum is clearly designated in the forum list as one for "Catholics to discuss current issues with other Catholics." Consequently, your opening the door, stepping in, and asking "so why is it that Catholic priests have this problem?" (paraphrase) is tantamount to, oh, I don't know, walking into an Arabic Muslim family's home, sitting down on the sofa and asking, "so why is it that Arab men are violent murderers?" or, let's see, walking into a white Anglo-American Protestant home and saying, "so why is it that WASPs think the work ethic is more important than anything else?" or, okay, how about walking into an urban black or latino family, sitting down on their sofa and asking, "so why is it that your fathers have problems with reponsibility?"

Pretty rude, would you say not?

More significantly, your wording of the question evidences a generalization that Wolseley and others have painstakingly tried to point out. The presuppositions built into your question render it, quite honestly, unanswerable as stated.

And you're not honestly implying that the media is trying to grill Catholics, are you? I think that suggestion would be paranoid at best.

Why do you read my behavior as paranoid? Do you think that I see a plot in the media against Catholics? Would you think I see that or would be sensitive towards such a plot because I am one and it is my religious affiliation that is being attacked?

I think the media is simply selling what sells best to the target marget.

Sex.

If this was Matthew Shepard's week, it would be fundamentalists or evangelicals being roasted.

Still, the main reason for the roast is that sex sells newspapers.

So do political scandals.

How much print do Child and Family Services foster home child abuse scandals get?

This is being reported because it's a VERY big deal. A cardinal is implicated.

Granted that I haven't been spending the last 68 hours reading the press on this issue, but I would hasard that you are in error of fact as to this point. I have seen no articles to the effect that a Cardinal is incriminated in a child sex offender case.

The reason a Cardinal is implicated is because there is a significant change of procedure occuring withing the American Catholic church. So I would be entirely surprised if a Cardinal was not involved. He is the one with administrative authority here, and it is right that he take the heat.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by JeTmAn

Look, would you at least read the posts before flaming?


I did, I have, but it doesn't seem to me that you're reading the Catholic responses.


I never said that nobody else had this problem, but my chief interest here is in the Catholic priesthood.


No duh, that is obvious by your constantly repeating the question over and over and over and over even though we keep pointing out that it is a human problem, not just a Catholic one. Your question smacks of simple-mindedness. It's like going up to a family who's child committed a crime and grilling them over why their child did it. Like they know? It's like going into a doctor's office and asking someone waiting to see the doctor, why you are sick. Like they're supposed to know what's wrong with you? Just because we're Catholic doesn't mean that we know what goes on in the mind of a child abusing Catholic priest. And it's just plain silly to insist that we should know... which is what you're doing.

It is especially interesting to me that priests are most often (it seems) involved with little boys. Why is that, and what is it that allows this kind of conduct to occur so often in the first place?

I dunno, perhaps you should use some common sense and figure out that priests come into contact with boys more than girls. It is fact that for pedophiles though, the sex of the victim is not a factor, the whole case in pedophilia is about control over the victim... boy or girl. If priests were in contact with girls more often, chances are it would be closer to 50/50. Though I find it amusing AND disgusting that GreenEyedLady made it seem more respectable that Protestant male ministers abused girls... as if the dirtier crime is Catholic priests abusing boys. That sort of thinking is sick, depraved and disgusting... one should be ashamed for making such a sick insinuation.


All our godly men, priests, pastors, and what have you are supposed to be beacons of God's light, above reproach. Instead of complaining, contribute something to the discussion and try to answer my question.


I did, I have. Others did, others have. You just don't seem to care though. If you have such a burning desire to know what makes the mind of a pedophile tick, why don't you go to the local jail and ask one?

It's not enough that Catholics are outraged over the whole matter, now we're supposed to provide insight into the minds of sick individuals we have never met? What the heck is up with that?

 

[Spurious]

Originally posted by JeTmAn
It is especially interesting to me that priests are most often (it seems) involved with little boys. Why is that, and what is it that allows this kind of conduct to occur so often in the first place? [/B]

Are you willing to walk into an Arab's house in your home town and ask the man of the house:

"So, why is it that Arab men in the Middle East are attracted to jihad?"

Are you willing to walk into a Jewish family's house in your home town and ask the woman of the house, "(It seems) that Jews always make more money and tend to professions with a cash basis, like banking. So why is it that Jews are so attracted to the financial profession?

Are you willing to walk into a white family in Kentucky's home and ask, "Since it seems like most of the incest situations on Jerry Springer are rural southerners, why is it that you people are more attracted to your own kin than to outsiders?"

 

[JeTmAn]

Originally posted by Spurious


Friend JeTmAn, I will accept your honest naivete for what it appears to be. However, consider that this forum is clearly designated in the forum list as one for "Catholics to discuss current issues with other Catholics." Consequently, your opening the door, stepping in, and asking "so why is it that Catholic priests have this problem?" (paraphrase) is tantamount to, oh, I don't know, walking into an Arabic Muslim family's home, sitting down on the sofa and asking, "so why is it that Arab men are violent murderers?" or, let's see, walking into a white Anglo-American Protestant home and saying, "so why is it that WASPs think the work ethic is more important than anything else?" or, okay, how about walking into an urban black or latino family, sitting down on their sofa and asking, "so why is it that your fathers have problems with reponsibility?"

Pretty rude, would you say not?

More significantly, your wording of the question evidences a generalization that Wolseley and others have painstakingly tried to point out. The presuppositions built into your question render it, quite honestly, unanswerable as stated.



Why do you read my behavior as paranoid? Do you think that I see a plot in the media against Catholics? Would you think I see that or would be sensitive towards such a plot because I am one and it is my religious affiliation that is being attacked?

I think the media is simply selling what sells best to the target marget.

Sex.

If this was Matthew Shepard's week, it would be fundamentalists or evangelicals being roasted.

Still, the main reason for the roast is that sex sells newspapers.

So do political scandals.

How much print do Child and Family Services foster home child abuse scandals get?



Granted that I haven't been spending the last 68 hours reading the press on this issue, but I would hasard that you are in error of fact as to this point. I have seen no articles to the effect that a Cardinal is incriminated in a child sex offender case.

The reason a Cardinal is implicated is because there is a significant change of procedure occuring withing the American Catholic church. So I would be entirely surprised if a Cardinal was not involved. He is the one with administrative authority here, and it is right that he take the heat.

Firstly, your assumption that an internet forum is the same as private residence is quite erroneous. The internet is supposed to be a place of learning and discussion, not a haven from outside thought. The Catholic forum here is for Catholic issues, and that's what I want to discuss.

Secondly, any researcher knows that when gathering information, you go to the primary source. It would be an ordinary thing to have a discussion with someone who's lived in the Middle East, Arab or not, about why so many people in that area of the world seem to hate America. I haven't made any blanket statements like "all Catholic priests are molesters", and I wouldn't say something like "all Arab men are murderers" in another discussion. You're trying to see implications that are nonexistent. We're rational beings, and if everyone is levelheaded enough we should be able to discuss issues like this.

Thirdly, yes it's true that the media loves sex, but that's not why it's covering this issue. The issue is being covered because for the first time (to my knowledge) someone with as much authority as a cardinal has admitted to knowlege of the priests' activities involving molestation. Considering that the Pope is drawn from the pool of cardinals (that is correct, is it not?), this is a significant development.

Well, it's obvious that this thread will get nowhere. It probably fared better than it would have in the interfaith forum, though.

-JeTmAn

 

[ZooMom]

Ok. Whew. Didn't think I would see this here.

JeTmAn, I will accept that you asked this in all sincerety. I understand what you are trying to ask, but you must understand our inability to give you the answer you seem to want. It has already been stated that this problem is not endemic of the priesthood.

Consider the sheer numbers of priests in the Church. Consider also that while the Church tries to be discerning in the matter of true vocations, she is not omniscient. The Church has no ability to cull unsuspected offenders from the ranks of postulants for the priesthood. And lastly, consider that while most priests have a true calling, in the cases of sexual offenders the perceived power and opportunity of a Catholic priest may be the only reason they were drawn to the Church. Many sexual predators choose positions or jobs where they will have easy access to and availability of victims.

Wols, you are very welcome. I got tired of these discussions coming up, and figured if I couldn't stop them then I could at least try to level the field.

nyj, and Spurious, and VOW...you guys are doing fine for now. Stay cool.

GEL, please remember that this is not an attack and debate forum. Keep your posts constructive to the discussion or I will have to edit them.

 

[Spurious]

Originally posted by JeTmAn
Firstly, your assumption that an internet forum is the same as private residence is quite erroneous. The internet is supposed to be a place of learning and discussion, not a haven from outside thought. The Catholic forum here is for Catholic issues, and that's what I want to discuss.

No, friend JeTmAn, you completely and now obstinately misunderstand the purpose of this forum.

Read the stated purpose of the forum.

The internet is not ruled by you, and certainly those who have graciously allowed this thread to remain in the inappropriate forum are aware of their power to remove it and you from it.

Secondly, any researcher knows that when gathering information, you go to the primary source.

So now you are saying that Wolseley, nyj and I are pedophiles?

If you were indeed a researcher you would know a couple of things. First, the way you frame your question determines your results. Slanted, prejudicial questions will produce slanted, prejudicial results. Second, you would look to reliable sources of authority for explanations including appropriate statistical samplings so that you can say with reasonable assurance that the grounds for your question do exist.

Key point here: I don't see a great deal of background research on your part as to the proportionality of pediophilia in the Catholic priesthood with respect to the priesthood as a whole, and I don't see any research on your part into studies done showing that there are proportionally more pediophiles in the Catholic priesthood than elsewhere.

And, if you were a researcher, I don't think you would accept the credibility of any of the posters here unless they had a PhD in Sociology or Pyschology and the respect of their peers in the field.

It would be an ordinary thing to have a discussion with someone who's lived in the Middle East, Arab or not, about why so many people in that area of the world seem to hate America.

Yes, I suppose that is why I have seen so many in-depth interviews on the news and on other television in the days after 911 asking Arab Americans living in America to explain the situation.

I haven't made any blanket statements like "all Catholic priests are molesters", and I wouldn't say something like "all Arab men are murderers" in another discussion. You're trying to see implications that are nonexistent.

No, friend, it's just that you have fallen prey to a form of prejudice that is not as easy to see in oneself as broad-brush blanket statements. It is prejudice nonetheless. You start from the presumption that "there is a pedophile priest problem" and "it's a Catholic problem." And these assumptions were required by your audience to be accepted before we could proceed further.

I know that it is hard to get one's mind around this when one is not on the receiving end, but this is prejudice by definition.

We're rational beings, and if everyone is levelheaded enough we should be able to discuss issues like this.

Dear friend, this statement is also prejudice of a different form. You are dictating a state of mind of your audience that depends on them coming over to your position. Certainly it is possible for rational, third-person observers to remain level-headed. But you are talking as a third-person observer to people who are feeling a tear going down the middle of their body, a tear that you share with the universe by mentioning your religious affiliation. Frankly, your expectation that your interlocutors remain levelheaded is both arrogant and unsympathetic. I said this is a different form of prejudice. What you are doing, by asserting that everyone come over to your third-person perspective and 'stop getting emotional and defensive' is your power and authority. Now, generally it is the dominant power group that invokes this power in this manner. But it is only a way of perpetuating the prejudice.

Thirdly, yes it's true that the media loves sex, but that's not why it's covering this issue. The issue is being covered because for the first time (to my knowledge) someone with as much authority as a cardinal has admitted to knowlege of the priests' activities involving molestation. Considering that the Pope is drawn from the pool of cardinals (that is correct, is it not?), this is a significant development.

I ask you quite sincerely to research this question further. To my knowledge, the answer to that question would have to be no. Off the cuff, I can think of Cardinals in the seventeenth century, but their names are escaping me.

Well, it's obvious that this thread will get nowhere. It probably fared better than it would have in the interfaith forum, though.

No, because on the interfaith forum it would have been appropriately posed without imposition upon the gracious people in this forum.

 

[JeTmAn]

Consider the sheer numbers of priests in the Church. Consider also that while the Church tries to be discerning in the matter of true vocations, she is not omniscient. The Church has no ability to cull unsuspected offenders from the ranks of postulants for the priesthood. And lastly, consider that while most priests have a true calling, in the cases of sexual offenders the perceived power and opportunity of a Catholic priest may be the only reason they were drawn to the Church. Many sexual predators choose positions or jobs where they will have easy access to and availability of victims.

Ah! This is quite helpful! Thank you very much for providing some REAL information, I just wish you could've been the first poster into this thread.

No, friend JeTmAn, you completely and now obstinately misunderstand the purpose of this forum.

Read the stated purpose of the forum.

The internet is not ruled by you, and certainly those who have graciously allowed this thread to remain in the inappropriate forum are aware of their power to remove it and you from it.

Neither do you dominate the internet. You can argue semantics all you want, that doesn't change the nature of the internet as a public forum.

So now you are saying that Wolseley, nyj and I are pedophiles?

That's ludicrous and you know it. I never implied any such thing any more than I would imply a Middle Easterner hated the U.S. if I questioned him about the political climate of the Middle East.

If you were indeed a researcher you would know a couple of things. First, the way you frame your question determines your results. Slanted, prejudicial questions will produce slanted, prejudicial results. Second, you would look to reliable sources of authority for explanations including appropriate statistical samplings so that you can say with reasonable assurance that the grounds for your question do exist.

Key point here: I don't see a great deal of background research on your part as to the proportionality of pediophilia in the Catholic priesthood with respect to the priesthood as a whole, and I don't see any research on your part into studies done showing that there are proportionally more pediophiles in the Catholic priesthood than elsewhere.

And, if you were a researcher, I don't think you would accept the credibility of any of the posters here unless they had a PhD in Sociology or Pyschology and the respect of their peers in the field.

I have never claimed to BE a researcher. I referred to research methods and nothing more. Honestly, if you took a little time to read my posts your replies wouldn't be so off base. I have never supposed that there is more pedophilia in the Catholic priesthood than any other organization, nor is it my responsibility to provide the context that only you want.

Yes, I suppose that is why I have seen so many in-depth interviews on the news and on other television in the days after 911 asking Arab Americans living in America to explain the situation.

Are you inferring that political correctness must indicate the proper course of research? I certainly hope not. While there would be no point in interviewing people who have not lived in the Middle East, Arab or not, I don't think even the ultrasensitive media would balk at interviewing those who actually have lived there. In fact, I HAVE seen interviews with citizens of countries like Pakistan revealing their perspective on what's been happening.

No, friend, it's just that you have fallen prey to a form of prejudice that is not as easy to see in oneself as broad-brush blanket statements. It is prejudice nonetheless. You start from the presumption that "there is a pedophile priest problem" and "it's a Catholic problem." And these assumptions were required by your audience to be accepted before we could proceed further.

I know that it is hard to get one's mind around this when one is not on the receiving end, but this is prejudice by definition.

So now you're saying there is no problem with pedophilia in the Catholic priesthood? None at all? Open your eyes, it's there. This isn't an assumption, it's a fact.

Dear friend, this statement is also prejudice of a different form. You are dictating a state of mind of your audience that depends on them coming over to your position. Certainly it is possible for rational, third-person observers to remain level-headed. But you are talking as a third-person observer to people who are feeling a tear going down the middle of their body, a tear that you share with the universe by mentioning your religious affiliation. Frankly, your expectation that your interlocutors remain levelheaded is both arrogant and unsympathetic. I said this is a different form of prejudice. What you are doing, by asserting that everyone come over to your third-person perspective and 'stop getting emotional and defensive' is your power and authority. Now, generally it is the dominant power group that invokes this power in this manner. But it is only a way of perpetuating the prejudice.

It is a barbarous time indeed when it is "arrogant" to expect that rational human beings behave as such. This line of questioning is so ridiculous I will not pursue it further.

I ask you quite sincerely to research this question further. To my knowledge, the answer to that question would have to be no. Off the cuff, I can think of Cardinals in the seventeenth century, but their names are escaping me.

I'm not sure which question you're answering here.

No, because on the interfaith forum it would have been appropriately posed without imposition upon the gracious people in this forum.

Really? Is that why there are so many complaints about assaults on Catholics in the interfaith forum? Like the post that facetiously suggested drinking away the woes from being in that very forum? If you think the interfaith forum is a place where a real discussion of such an issue as this is possible, you should really read some of the threads in there.

This thread is at an end for me. I'm sorry if I've upset anyone; that was not my intent. I wanted to ask a genuine question about an area I know little about, but obviously nobody wants to hear it. This is my last post in this thread.

-JeTmAn

 

[Spurious]

Jm,

I am sorry that you are unwilling to learn.

May God bless you, protect you and those around you, and may you grow in maturity and self-knowledge.

 

[KC Catholic]

Looks like we need a timeout...closing thread for now.