Why Abrahm from Ur? Why not Imotep from Egypt or Hwai Do from China?

[Hvizsgyak]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

 

[HTacianas]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

I think that's a question with no answer. If it had been Egypt or China or someplace else the question would still be "why that place"?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I don't think my answer will suffice for you, but Abram was chosen I think because he was obedient. There may have been other's God tried to call, but that didn't heed His call so He bypassed them. We know about Abram because when God said go, he went. As far as the distant locations you list, that's just geography. God could have called someone from Antarctica if He wanted to. And I don't think the demons those people worshipped in Ur had any bearing on it at all.

Again, we know He called Abram because scripture says Abram was called and he obeyed. The only other bit deals with God's grace in electing people. Which that in itself has no real answer except from God Himself.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

I think you could find some answers if you would read the historical Book Of Enoch. It tells a very interesting account of Abram (Abraham).

 

[Hvizsgyak]

I think you could find some answers if you would read the historical Book Of Enoch. It tells a very interesting account of Abram (Abraham).

My curiousity stems from The Book of Enoch and The Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and the work of Dr. Michael Heiser (The Unseen Realm and Reversing Hermon) and others in the same field. Although, I haven't gone through the whole Book of Enoch, I have a gist of it. I don't know why but I keep feeling there is something for today's people from that moment Abram was called out of Ur. Dr. Michael Heiser really explains some of the connections between Genesis and the people of Mesopotamia. I guess I just have more questions. Thank you for the tip. I think I really need to dig into all of the Book of Enoch. God Bless.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

I don't think my answer will suffice for you, but Abram was chosen I think because he was obedient. There may have been other's God tried to call, but that didn't heed His call so He bypassed them. We know about Abram because when God said go, he went. As far as the distant locations you list, that's just geography. God could have called someone from Antarctica if He wanted to. And I don't think the demons those people worshipped in Ur had any bearing on it at all.

Again, we know He called Abram because scripture says Abram was called and he obeyed. The only other bit deals with God's grace in electing people. Which that in itself has no real answer except from God Himself.

Good answer. Until you want even more nitty-gritty information. When one reads Genesis, one gets a very simplistic creation story. When one reads the Book of Enoch alot of holes are filled in from the Book of Genesis. When one reads the Enuma Elish even more holes a filled in from the Book of Genesis. And finally when one reads the connection of threads all put together in a nice bundle by author Dr. Michael Heiser, the start becomes a very different world than portrayed in Genesis. Its fascinating and it gives one a spiritual journey told no where else.

Unfortunately, I was looking for quick answers but it looks like I got to hit the books again (which is okay with me, I just have trouble staying awake while I read).

 

[Hvizsgyak]

I think that's a question with no answer. If it had been Egypt or China or someplace else the question would still be "why that place"?

If I can't find the answer here on Earth, hopefully I get to Heaven and I will be able to inquire there. I hope they have a good answer there..

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think that's a question with no answer. If it had been Egypt or China or someplace else the question would still be "why that place"?

I maybe disagree.

1) I believe the believe the Bible sends powerful typological messages. In the way the way things were established by the testimony of "Two Witnesses", Christ sent out the apostles in pairs etc. I believe their is a powerful Two witness typology when we consider both Egypt and Mesopotamia together as archetypes of "the Kingdom of the World", antichrist etc. Both places are prototypical empires that have a lot in common but also differences.

Like Egypt is more an established stable power etc. while Assyria/ Babylon etc. being on the plain is a kingdom where power can rise suddenly, where Blitzkeig chariot warfare can happen, and the place is more unstable being more exposed to invasion etc. (Egypt had chariots etc. but the Desert and Ocean and river barriers gave more stability than just have river barriers).

I know there are some unique things to Ur. The fact that fire as a religious icon seems something cool that Yahweh seems to have liked and wanted to be used in his appearances in the OT. There is stuff with the their mythology that seems like it ties in with stuff in Early Genesis like the angels leading men astray, they have a raise of demigods the Children of the God that supposedly started their culture. But I think the two cultures fit together well as a Yin and Yang similarity but also contrast for many in the Bible especially when it comes to forces that resist God.



2) Sometimes you also get into some other kinds of symbolism like east vs. west symbolism. That maybe doesn't always work but I think it also there at times.


3)You also get into various notions of Eden depending on where it might be and maybe typologies with that.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

God chooses the man, not the location. Abram/Abraham was the one through whom all the families on earth would be blessed. Abraham became God's friend. Abraham trusted and obeyed God even though it was painful for him. He gave up his son, Ishmael. He was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

I believe that Abraham was unique in his relationship to God. Moses was perhaps close, other men and women of God had a deep personal relationship, but Abraham stands out as a man of faith. Yes, he had flaws, but don't we all!

It would not have mattered where Abraham lived. God was going to call him from that place.

 

[eleos1954]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

God called Abraham to leave for his own sake in order to separate him from the evil environment and idol worship in which he lived

 

[DragonFox91]

It was always taught to me that area is smack-dab in the middle of all the trade routes, which eventually allowed the Gospel to spread all over the world.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

I maybe disagree.

1) I believe the believe the Bible sends powerful typological messages. In the way the way things were established by the testimony of "Two Witnesses", Christ sent out the apostles in pairs etc. I believe their is a powerful Two witness typology when we consider both Egypt and Mesopotamia together as archetypes of "the Kingdom of the World", antichrist etc. Both places are prototypical empires that have a lot in common but also differences.

Like Egypt is more an established stable power etc. while Assyria/ Babylon etc. being on the plain is a kingdom where power can rise suddenly, where Blitzkeig chariot warfare can happen, and the place is more unstable being more exposed to invasion etc. (Egypt had chariots etc. but the Desert and Ocean and river barriers gave more stability than just have river barriers).

I know there are some unique things to Ur. The fact that fire as a religious icon seems something cool that Yahweh seems to have liked and wanted to be used in his appearances in the OT. There is stuff with the their mythology that seems like it ties in with stuff in Early Genesis like the angels leading men astray, they have a raise of demigods the Children of the God that supposedly started their culture. But I think the two cultures fit together well as a Yin and Yang similarity but also contrast for many in the Bible especially when it comes to forces that resist God.



2) Sometimes you also get into some other kinds of symbolism like east vs. west symbolism. That maybe doesn't always work but I think it also there at times.


3)You also get into various notions of Eden depending on where it might be and maybe typologies with that.

There is stuff with the their mythology that seems like it ties in with stuff in Early Genesis like the angels leading men astray, they have a raise of demigods the Children of the God that supposedly started their culture. But I think the two cultures fit together well as a Yin and Yang similarity but also contrast for many in the Bible especially when it comes to forces that resist God.

I like your analysis of God's People and Mesopotamians as ying and yang. I feel the same way. And I think you were making a similar comparison between Egypt and Mesopotamia with why Abrahm came from Ur and not Saqqara (Egypt). Which leads me to ask: Is Mesopotamian religion/history just a early version of what God want the world to be like but Mesopotamians corrupted His message. So God needed Abrahm to start God's Vision again. Similar to the way God had Jesus start His Vision again against the Jewish religious leaders.

I don't know, I might be going too far with my analysis.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

God called Abraham to leave for his own sake in order to separate him from the evil environment and idol worship in which he lived

I agree with your statement but wasn't evilness everywhere on Earth supposedly. Look at the people who created Gobekli Tepe (in modern day Turkey), they were considered a skull cult because archeologists found so many skull fragments. What other bizarre and evil things did early man do?

You don't have to answer that question. That is what I and many other people are actually trying to piece together along with "why Ur?" Its a interesting and strange journey to look for these answers. I feel they will help me understand better our drifting away from God's Truth.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Which leads me to ask: Is Mesopotamian religion/history just a early version of what God want the world to be like but Mesopotamians corrupted His message. So God needed Abrahm to start God's Vision again. Similar to the way God had Jesus start His Vision again against the Jewish religious leaders.

Well there are a few big topics of importance that I see.


1) The first one is the notion of proto monotheistic Faith existing before Judaism. I believe the Bible strongly implies actually suggests this in various ways, starting in the book of Genesis with not just Adam and Even, Cain and Abel but the other antediluvian patriarchs like Seth, Enoch, into the ones after the flood, to Abraham etc.

I tend to see Balaam before "his fall" as fitting in this. Other people see him as "being a pagan", but the Bible speaks very highly of him before he was tempted by Balak.



2) Besides their is the aspect of the Bible using the iconography, tropes etc. of those other older pagan cultures and basically baptizing them as a means to tell the story of Yahew. I especially like the work of Michael Heiser on this issue.



3) Besides this there is an idea I have that I call "What Comes Around Goes around", probably the best example of that is this one Christmas time blog post I wrote a few years back.


Contemplating the Coming of the Magi

Sometimes we Christians like to divide the World into neat little categories. We like to have “believer" and "unbeliever", "Christian" and "non-Christian" and so forth Sometimes however real life doesn’t conform to such simplistic thinking. Because in the Gospels for example "Those outside Israel" sometimes could be "Close to the Kingdom of God", while those that were of natural Israel and devoutly practiced the old religion had "hearts that are far from God".

A good example of that is the coming of the Magi in the gospels. Those folks were mostly likely Zoroastrians from the region of Nineveh, (if we take the testimony of later Church historians seriously). These people had a close connection to the Jews during the first time of Exile. Some people think of Zoroastrians as "pagans" but they really have more in common with Monotheists in their beliefs than the other people of the pagan world. When we think about them we should realize that in the early Scriptures not all the people of God came directly from Abraham's line. Every so often we encounter someone like Melchizedek or Job. Even Balam the prophet, before he became corrupt was seen as being a "prophet of God".

When we contemplate the Magi, we should not forget that Abraham himself came from their region a few millennia previously. In fact, the name Hebrew is said to derive from this culture. It comes from an ancient Akkadian or Proto-Aramaic word meaning “They that dwell beyond the River” (Euphrates).

We therefore should not be surprised why the events recorded in the Book of Jonah take place. We have sayings “what comes around goes around”. And that certainly is true with the Kingdom of God itself. Or as scripture says, in Ecclesiastes 11: 11 “Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days.”

God who stands beyond Time itself knows all things. Besides being the place where the ancient Hebrews came from, he also knew it as a place that held great future promise for Christianity.

Isaiah 19: 23In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. This is one of those prophesies that already has been at least partially fulfilled. For the Coptic Christians and Syriac Orthodox Christians have been worshiping Christ and been in Communion with each other for nearly two millennia.

It was the place that saint Thaddeus (aka Jude the apostle) later missionized and turned into an Apostolic See that stretched forth all the way to India and China, which lasted until the late middle ages and continues today (although greatly diminished). Besides that, this region has been the home of great saints like Isaac of Nineveh (Saint Isaac the Syrian).

It is of course this same region and the Christians that dwell therein that very much need our prayers. For they struggle everyday against persecution and genocide by Islamic Fundamentalist groups like ISIS.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

Probably related to where God's backyard is. Re: story of Jacob's ladder.

 

[eleos1954]

I agree with your statement but wasn't evilness everywhere on Earth supposedly. Look at the people who created Gobekli Tepe (in modern day Turkey), they were considered a skull cult because archeologists found so many skull fragments. What other bizarre and evil things did early man do?

You don't have to answer that question. That is what I and many other people are actually trying to piece together along with "why Ur?" Its a interesting and strange journey to look for these answers. I feel they will help me understand better our drifting away from God's Truth.

The Bible states that Abraham was raised in “Ur of the Chaldeans”

Temples were numerous in Chaldea, and so were the priests. The gods were worshiped with sacrifices of brutes and human beings, with offerings of flowers, fruits, and bread, with instrumental and vocal music, dancing, and prayer.

That is not to say there was evil going on in other places ... but God called Abram out of Ur to separate him from the influence of it. Also, it was not the land that God had promised to him.

Genesis 12

The Call of Abram

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

Babylonia is sometimes called Shinar or the land of Babylon, but usually it is called the land of the Chaldeans. Its inhabitants are a few times referred to as Babylonians, but usually as Chaldeans.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think my answer will suffice for you, but Abram was chosen I think because he was obedient. There may have been other's God tried to call, but that didn't heed His call so He bypassed them. We know about Abram because when God said go, he went. As far as the distant locations you list, that's just geography. God could have called someone from Antarctica if He wanted to. And I don't think the demons those people worshipped in Ur had any bearing on it at all.

Again, we know He called Abram because scripture says Abram was called and he obeyed. The only other bit deals with God's grace in electing people. Which that in itself has no real answer except from God Himself.

Remember that God actually called Abram's father, Terah. But Terah didn't go the distance.

 

[RDKirk]

The Bible states that Abraham was raised in “Ur of the Chaldeans”

Temples were numerous in Chaldea, and so were the priests. The gods were worshiped with sacrifices of brutes and human beings, with offerings of flowers, fruits, and bread, with instrumental and vocal music, dancing, and prayer.

That is not to say there was evil going on in other places ... but God called Abram out of Ur to separate him from the influence of it. Also, it was not the land that God had promised to him.

Genesis 12

The Call of Abram

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

Babylonia is sometimes called Shinar or the land of Babylon, but usually it is called the land of the Chaldeans. Its inhabitants are a few times referred to as Babylonians, but usually as Chaldeans.

Btw, the ziggurat temple of Ur is still standing in southern Iraq.

During the Persian Gulf war, I was the first person to find Saddam Hussein hiding fighter jets around it. That was our first clue that Saddam was hiding fighter jets in non-targetable areas. My briefing board stayed on the Whitehouse.gov site for about a decade. The reason I found the hidden jets first was because I had a biblical interest in keeping an eye on it.

 

[eleos1954]

Btw, the ziggurat temple of Ur is still standing in southern Iraq.

During the Persian Gulf war, I was the first person to find Saddam Hussein hiding fighter jets around it. That was our first clue that Saddam was hiding fighter jets in non-targetable areas. My briefing board stayed on the Whitehouse.gov site for about a decade. The reason I found the hidden jets first was because I had a biblical interest in keeping an eye on it.

Ur was a city in the region of Sumer, southern Mesopotamia, in what is modern-day Iraq. According to biblical tradition


Mesopotamia

In Biblical history, Iraq is also known as Shinar, Sumer, Sumeria, Assyria, Elam, Babylonia, Chaldea, and was also part of the Medo-Persian Empire. Formerly also known as “Mesopotamia,” or “land between two rivers,” the modern name of “Iraq” is sometimes translated “country with deep roots.”

 

[Soyeong]

This probably isn't going to get much responses but I looking for reasons for why God called Abrahm out of Ur? Why Mesopotamia? Is their a stronger connection between our God and their gods. Alot of stories are similar. There seems to be a better flow from the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation Story) and Genesis.

Now, I am not looking for some secular archeological answer like "because the authors of Genesis copied from the Enuma Elish". No, in my eyes, there was an Abrahm and God did want him to leave Ur because of its wickedness and God wanted to start a civilization of His own righteous people. Again though, why Ur and not Egypt, China, South America, or Africa?

To some degree, the Torah is a polemic against Egyptian gods and uses the culture that its original audience was familiar with as a contrast to teach them about what God is really like.

A chip off the old block is someone who has the same character/nature/image as their faith, which is expressed through doing the same works as them, which is why Jesus said in John 8:39 that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, so the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that was made known in advance to him (Galatians 3:8) by teaching others to turn from their wickedness and how to walk in God's way in obedience to His law. This is also why Romans 9:6-8 says that the children of Abraham is not referring to his physical descendants, but to those who have been taught to have faith in the promise.

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household how to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that he promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God would multiply his children as the stars in the heaven, to his children he would give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth would be blessed because Abraham heard His voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart and soul by walking in His way by obeying His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, then He will bless them and they will multiply in the land that they go to possess, so all of the promises were made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children how to do that, and because they did that.

In Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed, so the way to inherit the promise through faith of being a blessing to the nations is by teaching the nations how to live blessed lives by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them how to walk in God's way in obedience to His law. Jesus, who is the way (John 14:6) was sent as the ultimate fulfillment of that promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness. In Galatians 3:26-29, it connects being children of God through faith in Christ with being children of Abraham, heirs to the promise. So this is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God insofar as he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in God's way in obedience to His law, and that is the sense that we are children of God when we are partaking in the his nature through following his example. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, being children of Abraham, and heirs to the promise is all directly connected to being blessed and being a blessing to others by living in obedience to God's law and teaching others how to do that in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God (Matthew 4:15-23).

In Genesis 1:22, God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, so He was not just speaking about having many children, but many children who were taught to be in the image of God, or in other words, who were children of God. By the time of the Flood, they had been fruitful and multiplied, but what they had filled the earth with was violence, so they were not multiplying the right thing. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walk in God's way, but he was not busy multiplying the Kingdom of God because only his immediate family was saved. It wasn't until Abram of Ur in Genesis 12:1-5 that God found someone who was busy multiplying the Gospel of Kingdom that God found someone that He could make the promise to. The souls that they had made in Haran refers to making converts. So potentially God could have made the promise to anyone who stepped up to the plate, but it was Abram who first chose to do that.