What exactly is the law?

[fhansen]

huh?? Surely you have read and know what I am talking about. Abraham lied - violation of the 10 Cs that came 430 years after him.

bugkiller

I see. I wasn't familiar with this argument. But God works with us based on what we know, what He's revealed. So, IMO, the question doesn't change even if the sin changes:
"are you asserting that the law against [lying] that was given later is arbitrary, and not truly a "natural law" for man, as theologians sometimes put it?

 

[fhansen]

Double post

 

[fhansen]

With what are you differing?

You and your lawyer maintain that you can't unring a rung bell, a sinner can't be made sinless. And yet, that's exactly what the New Covenant is all about-making a brand new bell-as if it had never been rung to begin with. Completely possible with God, who promises to forgive and forget sins, replace stony hearts with hearts of flesh, place His laws on our hearts and write them in our minds, causing us to follow them, truly becoming the God of man again. This is the New Covenant, this what it means to become a new creation.

 

[fhansen]

But that does not take away our current status as saved. JN 5:24

bugkiller

But that's already a moot point if God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whether we're saved or not.

 

[bugkiller]

I see. I wasn't familiar with this argument. But God works with us based on what we know, what He's revealed. So, IMO, the question doesn't change even if the sin changes:
"are you asserting that the law against [lying] that was given later is arbitrary, and not truly a "natural law" for man, as theologians sometimes put it?

Is this one of those carefully and artfully worded questions?

Yes the law against lying was given later. No the law is not arbitrary. The problem seems to be that sin preceded the law both per Moses - Deut 5:2-3 and Paul - Rom 5:13. Was Abraham obligated to the law? No!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You and your lawyer maintain that you can't unring a rung bell, a sinner can't be made sinless. And yet, that's exactly what the New Covenant is all about-making a brand new bell-as if it had never been rung to begin with. Completely possible with God, who promises to forgive and forget sins, replace stony hearts with hearts of flesh, place His laws on our hearts and write them in our minds, causing us to follow them, truly becoming the God of man again. This is the New Covenant, this what it means to become a new creation.

The Christian (or OT saint as we call them) is made righteous by imputation/declaration. It can happen no other way. It is a gift and comes without obligation. If it requires obligation is it wages and that is death when it relates to salvation.

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

Is this one of those carefully and artfully worded questions?
If you say so, although I wouldn't.
Yes the law against lying was given later. No the law is not arbitrary. The problem seems to be that sin preceded the law both per Moses - Deut 5:2-3 and Paul - Rom 5:13. Was Abraham obligated to the law? No!

bugkiller

So why would you think that Abraham was no less obligated to the law-to be who God created him to be-than those addressed in Rom 2:12-13?

 

[bugkiller]

But that's already a moot point if God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whether we're saved or not.

Who said that? Why can I not trust the Scripture?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So why would you think that Abraham was no less obligated to the law-to be who God created him to be-than those addressed in Rom 2:12-13?

What did I say? I said Abraham was not obligated to the law. This means to any degree. The law was not given to Abraham according to Moses - Deut 5:3. Therefore he could not be obligated to the law. So how did Abraham hear the law that came 430 years after him? Rom 2:13; Gal 3:17.

bugkiller

 

[Eseven]

Definite article

 

[fhansen]

What did I say? I said Abraham was not obligated to the law. This means to any degree. The law was not given to Abraham according to Moses - Deut 5:3. Therefore he could not be obligated to the law. So how did Abraham hear the law that came 430 years after him? Rom 2:13; Gal 3:17.

bugkiller

He didn't have to hear it-it's written in the hearts of all men-although dimmed and obscured by the fall. That's the meaning of Romans 2:

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[bugkiller]

He didn't have to hear it-it's written in the hearts of all men-although dimmed and obscured by the fall. That's the meaning of Romans 2:

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Well there are several ways to approach this. The one I am going to choose this time is Moses must be lying.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Definite article

Even as a guy I am going to say how sweet of you. And you are very correct it does limit and make specific.

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

Well there are several ways to approach this. The one I am going to choose this time is Moses must be lying.

bugkiller

I guess. Or Paul.

 

[annier]

So why would you think that Abraham was no less obligated to the law-to be who God created him to be-than those addressed in Rom 2:12-13?

Works of the law are to sacrifice our sons then?

 

[fhansen]

Works of the law are to sacrifice our sons then?

No, a work of the law would be the opposite of that, in fact.

 

[Eseven]

Even as a guy I am going to say how sweet of you. And you are very correct it does limit and make specific.

bugkiller

I just learned what a definite article is, and i couldn't resist.

And...

Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Lu 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Lu 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

[bugkiller]

I guess. Or Paul.

Either way it discredits the Bible. This means to me that we are nothing but fools for believing it. After all it is just another meaningless book presenting ideas that have no consequences. ehehehehehehehehe

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I just learned what a definite article is, and i couldn't resist. And...

Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Lu 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Lu 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

OK, but I see no relationship to your verses unless you are trying to say we are obligated to the law.

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

Either way it discredits the Bible. This means to me that we are nothing but fools for believing it. After all it is just another meaningless book presenting ideas that have no consequences. ehehehehehehehehe

bugkiller

Not in my opinion. I just believe its best when we also understand it.