What does John 1:29 mean to you?

[Lulav]

No.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And

Col 2 --Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[Lulav]

Those who start with Genesis 3:15 tend to be covenant theologians. Are you one?

Why are you asking? How does that color the topic at hand?

 

[Guojing]

Why are you asking? How does that color the topic at hand?

Because as I said, their main doctrine begins with that verse

 

[d taylor]

It has absolutely everything to do with it. It was the cause of all mankind has gone through.

After the eating of the forbidden fruit, notice the order of the punishments for this.
The serpent is handed down a sentence before Adam and before Eve.

​

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:​

​

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and​

between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

Genesis 3:15

Yeshua came to 'bruise the head' of the serpent who had caused all the sin in the world.

Satan's fall affected the creation God had created for the angles. Adam sin affected the creation God had created for man.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

So Jesus coming taking the sin of the world away was for man's benefit not satan's as satan's sentence had already be passed, he was destine for the lake of fire.

 

[Lulav]

Satan's fall affected the creation God had created for the angles.

What creation would that be for the ANGELS?

Adam sin affected the creation God had created for man.

Do you think that Satan had nothing to do with that?

So Jesus coming taking the sin of the world away was for man's benefit not satan's as satan's sentence had already be passed, he was destine for the lake of fire.

In Genesis 3:15 it is explicit that there is a meeting of mankind with this fallen angel. That there would come a day when he, the serpent would 'bruise' the seed of the woman (Jesus) heel but that same seed, Jesus, would crush his head. that is what happened at the cross.

 

[Lulav]

Because as I said, their main doctrine begins with that verse

This is unknown to me. That verse explains the 'genesis' of everything that comes after. It culminated at the cross.

 

[Hammster]

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And

Col 2 --Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Okay. What’s the point?

 

[d taylor]

What creation would that be for the ANGELS?

Do you think that Satan had nothing to do with that?

In Genesis 3:15 it is explicit that there is a meeting of mankind with this fallen angel. That there would come a day when he, the serpent would 'bruise' the seed of the woman (Jesus) heel but that same seed, Jesus, would crush his head. that is what happened at the cross.

The one created in Genesis 1:1

Satan did not sin, he did temped Eve to sin but Eve's sin brought death to her not the whole of creation. That was done by Adam who was not deceived by satan but took the fruit from Eve.

 

[Guojing]

This is unknown to me. That verse explains the 'genesis' of everything that comes after. It culminated at the cross.

But you have heard of "Covenant Theology" correct?

Are you one? That is what I am asking you, its a simple yes or no question.

 

[Lulav]

Okay. What’s the point?

You said , without explanation 'No' to this":

Lulav said:

How about the original sin? Not the one that Adam or Eve committed, but the one before that that started the whole thing. Isn't that what Genesis 3:15 is all about?


So I gave you some verses in rebuttal. And highlighted them to make the point.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

​

And​

​

Col 2 --Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

 

[Lulav]

The one created in Genesis 1:1

So you believe that the heavens and the earth were created for the angels?

Satan did not sin, he did temped Eve to sin but Eve's sin brought death to her not the whole of creation. That was done by Adam who was not deceived by satan but took the fruit from Eve.

Ah, why was he given a sentence then?

So the Lord God said to the serpent:​

​

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”​

​

Sounds like a sin to me, we don't have it on record but he must have been told to not offer it, as well as he twisted the word of the LORD when he approached Eve.

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”​

​

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.​

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

 

[Lulav]

How about the original sin? Not the one that Adam or Eve committed, but the one before that that started the whole thing. Isn't that what Genesis 3:15 is all about?

This was in reference to the 'sin of the world'.

Those who start with Genesis 3:15 tend to be covenant theologians. Are you one?

I did not 'start' with Gen 3:15

Why are you asking? How does that color the topic at hand?

Again, how is that relevant to the 'sin of the world'?

Because as I said, their main doctrine begins with that verse

So, are 'they' the only ones who can reference that verse?

This is unknown to me. That verse explains the 'genesis' of everything that comes after. It culminated at the cross.

From what I've read of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism I am not a believer in either Theology.

But you have heard of "Covenant Theology" correct?

After looking it up, yes.

Are you one?

That is what I am asking you,

its a simple yes or no question.

Why the inquisition?

 

[Guojing]

From what I've read of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism I am not a believer in either Theology.

Thanks for clarifying. I was just curious about how you interpret scripture.

 

[Hammster]

You said , without explanation 'No' to this":

Lulav said:

How about the original sin? Not the one that Adam or Eve committed, but the one before that that started the whole thing. Isn't that what Genesis 3:15 is all about?


So I gave you some verses in rebuttal. And highlighted them to make the point.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

​

And​

​

Col 2 --Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

I don’t see how that’s a rebuttal. The NT is clear that our sin problem is because of the first Adam. That’s why we need a Second Adam. All you’ve done is find two verses that support your view. You didn’t derive your view from the text.

 

[d taylor]

So you believe that the heavens and the earth were created for the angels?

Ah, why was he given a sentence then?

So the Lord God said to the serpent:​

​

“Because you have done this,​

You are cursed more than all cattle,​

And more than every beast of the field;​

On your belly you shall go,​

And you shall eat dust​

All the days of your life.​

15 And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head,​

And you shall bruise His heel.”​

​

Sounds like a sin to me, we don't have it on record but he must have been told to not offer it, as well as he twisted the word of the LORD when he approached Eve.

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”​

​

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.​

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

No i believe the original earth the one that was created in Genesis 1:1 that only took God speaking it into existence, no 6 days. Was the home of angels and was where satan was in Eden the garden of God, Ezekiel 28:11-19. After iniquity was found in satan that earth was judged and destroyed and ended as is seen in Genesis 1:2. covered in water. God restored or brought about another earth (land, ground), the earth in Genesis 1:9, but this time for humanity Genesis 1:3 -31

When i said satan did not sin, i meant that what he did, did not bring sin into the world of Adam and Eve. After satan fell he became a being that has no good in him so every thing he does is a lie/deception a sin.

 

[Lulav]

I don’t see how that’s a rebuttal. The NT is clear that our sin problem is because of the first Adam. That’s why we need a Second Adam. All you’ve done is find two verses that support your view. You didn’t derive your view from the text.

I would say that the sin problem is first addressed in Genesis 3, it is the foundation. I used NT verses that I hoped would be more understandable to one who does not use the 'OT" as the foundation of all that came afterwards.

 

[Hammster]

I would say that the sin problem is first addressed in Genesis 3, it is the foundation. I used NT verses that I hoped would be more understandable to one who does not use the 'OT" as the foundation of all that came afterwards.

You pulled verses out that you think support your view. Romans 5 makes it clear where our sin issue comes from.

 

[Lulav]

You pulled verses out that you think support your view. Romans 5 makes it clear where our sin issue comes from.

No, not what happened. You've just proved why I quoted from Paul, I 'thought' you might be able to see what I was saying by finding some words from Paul. I was not, nor need to support my view, I was just hoping, irrationally apparently, to get some understanding from some.

I take it you are referring to:

ROMANS:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

This begs these questions:
1. What was that sin?
2. How did it enter?
3. Were there any outside forces that caused it to happen?
4. Was this outside force condemned?
5. Were they punished?

This is all answered in Genesis 3

1. -- The sin was not keeping YHVH's law given to him (Adam)
2.--- Through the subtly clever serpent that twisted the LORDS words.
3--Yes, we learn of this other being in the garden with Adam and Eve - called here the serpent who tempted Eve and Adam who was there with her.
4. --- Yes, after YHVH came on the scene the serpent was the one who received the sentence of condemnation FIRST.
5. --- Yes, all THREE of them with the serpent leading the questioning along with receiving the sentence first.

9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”​

He was hiding because now he knew what good and evil was.
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”​

The LORD calls to Adam first as he was the one the LORD gave the commandment to. He is the one accountable for keeping it or not.

11 And He said,​

“Who told you that you were naked? ​

Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”​

Notice the LORD gives him a chance for repentance but instead.....

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”​

Adam chooses to play the blame game and blames the woman and does not repent.
13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”​

The woman also chooses to play the blame game and blames the serpent, but does not repent.
Notice that the LORD does not question the serpent and allow him to repent.
But it is the Serpent that HE addresses first with the sentence and punishment.

14 So the Lord God said to the #1 Serpent:

“Because you have done this,You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,And you shall bruise His heel.”

16 To the #2 woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,And he shall rule over you.”

17 Then to #3 Adam He said,

“Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

Notice the order here,
1. Serpent
2. Woman
3. Adam- man

The sin was not created out of thin air, there was a catalyst and that was the serpent. That is why his penalty was also death, annihilation.

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”​

#5 Were they punished?, yes, see above. But also notice this:

7.'Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.'​

You cannot make atonement for yourself, let alone with plants that is why in this next verse we see the first sacrifice being made by the LORD himself.

21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

​

Atonement is a covering, it doesn't take it away but it hides it from GODs sight.

 

[Hammster]

No, not what happened. You've just proved why I quoted from Paul, I 'thought' you might be able to see what I was saying by finding some words from Paul. I was not, nor need to support my view, I was just hoping, irrationally apparently, to get some understanding from some.

I take it you are referring to:

ROMANS:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

This begs these questions:
1. What was that sin?
2. How did it enter?
3. Were there any outside forces that caused it to happen?
4. Was this outside force condemned?
5. Were they punished?

This is all answered in Genesis 3

1. -- The sin was not keeping YHVH's law given to him (Adam)
2.--- Through the subtly clever serpent that twisted the LORDS words.
3--Yes, we learn of this other being in the garden with Adam and Eve - called here the serpent who tempted Eve and Adam who was there with her.
4. --- Yes, after YHVH came on the scene the serpent was the one who received the sentence of condemnation FIRST.
5. --- Yes, all THREE of them with the serpent leading the questioning along with receiving the sentence first.

9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”​

He was hiding because now he knew what good and evil was. ​

10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”​

The LORD calls to Adam first as he was the one the LORD gave the commandment to. He is the one accountable for keeping it or not.

11 And He said,​

“Who told you that you were naked? ​

Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”​

Notice the LORD gives him a chance for repentance but instead.....

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”​

Adam chooses to play the blame game and blames the woman and does not repent.
13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”​

The woman also chooses to play the blame game and blames the serpent, but does not repent.
Notice that the LORD does not question the serpent and allow him to repent.
But it is the Serpent that HE addresses first with the sentence and punishment.

14 So the Lord God said to the #1 Serpent:

“Because you have done this,You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,And you shall bruise His heel.”

16 To the #2 woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,And he shall rule over you.”

17 Then to #3 Adam He said,

“Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

Notice the order here,
1. Serpent
2. Woman
3. Adam- man

The sin was not created out of thin air, there was a catalyst and that was the serpent. That is why his penalty was also death, annihilation.

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”​

#5 Were they punished?, yes, see above. But also notice this:

7.'Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.'​

You cannot make atonement for yourself, let alone with plants that is why in this next verse we see the first sacrifice being made by the LORD himself.

21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

​

Atonement is a covering, it doesn't take it away but it hides it from GODs sight.

Who does scripture say is responsible for our sin problem? Adam.

 

[Lulav]

Who does scripture say is responsible for our sin problem? Adam.

Adam said that?