What’s wrong with blasphemy?

[3sigma]

Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. * Why should blasphemy be punishable at all (in the world, not CF), let alone by imprisonment or even death in some countries?

 

[RobinRedbreast]

Mod Hat On

Hey there

This thread is being restored and open for discussion

However, Please listen up for the following information Conducting blasphemy at CF is not allowed, nor is the promotion of Blasphemy. You have to understand this. Please see the CF site-wide rule and the Forum Specific Guideline on Blasphemy.

You need to be able to conduct yourself in this thread, within these rules. If you feel a post of yours is going to break these rules, do not post it, or reword it carefully. If you see someone else breaking the rules, it is in your best interest not to respond and instead report the post, so I can take it away for staff review and let the thread continue in peace.

Do not flame anyone else, or their faith, in this discussion.

I will be keeping a close eye on the thread.

Cheers!
M~G
Ministry Team Moderator

Mod Hat Off

 

[RobinRedbreast]

Also, please remember that the Guidelines for this forum prohibit more than one non-christian (aka the OP) speaking in a thread.

Exploring Christianity Forum
This is a forum where non-Christians are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christians can enter into discussion with them on these questions.

We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith. If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian (the OP) may post in a thread.

 

[synger]

I don't know a lot about criminal cases of blasphemy. In my country, blasphemy is considered rude in many circles, but it's a social stigma rather than a criminal act. Because my country does not have a state religion, I think it would be very hard for it to enact laws against blasphemy. From the Wikipedia article on blasphemy, it seems that some of the older laws about blasphemy in some countries are instead being replaced or updated with laws about religious hate speech. They seem to be moving from disallowing insulting language about a god to disallowing insulting language about that god's followers.

However, you spoke more about criminal cases. From what little I've read, blasphemy as a criminal action really only shows up in those countries that have a state religion or that have an active majority-faith. It's pretty much disappeared in the United States. The last US conviction for blasphemy, for example, was in 1928, and the man was fined $25 dollars and served about a month in jail.

Pakistan has the most stringent of modern anti-blasphemy laws, and includes a death penalty if the case is severe enough.

Unfortunately, I cannot really answer your specific question other than to give you that sort of background. In general, modern Christians do not have active anti-blasphemy laws in civil society. We do tend to expect respectful religious dialogue socially, but some blasphemous "stress expressions" are accepted as just words and not truly meaningful in some Christian families. In my family, we try to substitute silly expressions when we need an expletive, like "fudge nuts" or "sugar!" Other families do different things.

I'm not sure if that gets to the heart of your question. Please let me know if I can clarify further.

 

[3sigma]

Because my country does not have a state religion, I think it would be very hard for it to enact laws against blasphemy.

Didn’t you notice in the Wikipedia article that the U.S. has enacted blasphemy laws in the past and some of them are still on the books?

However, you spoke more about criminal cases.

Well, actually, no I didn’t. Those aren’t my words.

I'm not sure if that gets to the heart of your question. Please let me know if I can clarify further.

I have to be careful what I say here because my original post was deleted and then edited to allow it to be posted, but the reason for my asking the question is to discover religious believers’ justification for punishing blasphemy. I’m speaking of all religious believers here, not just Christians, but Christians have enacted laws against blasphemy in the past and imposed severe punishments for it so it is presumably their belief that blasphemy should be punished. Why should something be punishable at all, let alone by imprisonment or death, when it causes no actual harm? What right do religious believers have to impose their will on non-believers in such a severe and violent manner? Remember, we are talking about putting people to death, ending their lives, for what is effectively a non-crime. I would like to know how religious believers justify such draconian punishments to themselves and others.

 

[RobinRedbreast]

Yeah the criminal-case thing was a staff edit, but to be honest now that the post is out in the open, and now that we see more of what the OP is asking, it doesn't sound right, so I'm going to take it out completely so no one gets confused.

3sigma, so what you're asking is, blasphemy causes no physical harm, so why punish it with such extreme physical means.. in a sense?

And are you speaking more or less only about the past? I'm not sure what modern-day examples we have of blasphemy being punished so harshly from a Christian perspective anyway.

It's true that there have been punishments in the past, but certainly not today. And I personally don't think I could defend the past-actions of MANY religions, let alone my own People as a human race have done very messed up things over the centuries. Sometimes, things cannot be justified.

 

[3sigma]

3sigma, so what you're asking is, blasphemy causes no physical harm, so why punish it with such extreme physical means.. in a sense?

Here’s an exercise for you. Do a search on Reuters for ‘blasphemy’ and read through some of the results. We see an Afghan journalist who was originally sentenced to death, but after public outcry had his sentenced commuted to a mere 20 years in prison; we see the Israeli parliament passing laws banning the display of unleavened bread; we see the Catholic church censoring art in Austria; and we see rallies in Pakistan still calling for the punishment of the Danish cartoonists whose cartoons caused riots two years ago in which 50 people were killed. All of that is on the first page of results. I have to ask you, who were the victims in those cases? Was it the blasphemy or the religious believers that caused the harm?

And are you speaking more or less only about the past? I'm not sure what modern-day examples we have of blasphemy being punished so harshly from a Christian perspective anyway.

It's true that there have been punishments in the past, but certainly not today.

All those examples I just gave you occurred this year and there are plenty more there. Go to page three of the results and you will see the Russian Orthodox Church complaining about Coca-Cola ads; Christians in the UK attempting to prosecute the BBC under blasphemy laws; a British teacher arrested for blasphemy in Sudan for allowing children to name a teddy bear ‘Mohammed’; and Muslim clerics calling for a Bangladeshi author to be killed for blasphemy. It’s true that Christians no longer put people to death for blasphemy, but some would argue that it is only because they no longer have the political power to do so. Christians still call for blasphemy to be punished.

So how do Christians and other religious believers justify their desire to punish people for blasphemy? What right do they think they have to impose their will on others in such a way?

 

[synger]

Ah, I misunderstood your question. I was looking at your last line, where you were speaking of imprisonment and death as punishments for blasphemy. Since only the state has the right to take those things from you legally, I thought you were speaking of civil/criminal law, not social pressures.

Thus, I think there's a real difference between a religious group complaining about blasphemy, and a law that punishes someone for blasphemy. The first is a social thing, the second is civil/criminal.

Anyone can complain about someone else saying something the first person didn't like. If it's a public company, like CocaCola, with an advertisement that the Orthodox don't like, the Orthodox can complain. The company is not required to listen or change at all. If the Orthodox organize a boycott of Coke, and it impacts Coke enough that they change their policy or they apologize or something, that's Coke's choice. It's not a civil/criminal issue, it's a social one. They have the right to complain, and they talk with their money. Sometimes such boycotts work. Most often they don't. *shrugs*

As for civil/criminal punishments, I personally think they're wrong. I don't even like the so-called "hate crime" additions to laws. If someone beats someone up because they're white, they should be punished because of what they did.. not because the victim was white. But that's another discussion.

So in my opinion, social groups have the right to certain expectations of behaviour and speech from its members. But I can't think of a blasphemy issue where I would want to make a law about it.

 

[ebia]

Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. * Why should blasphemy be punishable at all (in the world, not CF), let alone by imprisonment or even death in some countries?

A gratuitous lack of respect has consequences, it damages relationships, and so forth. There are, therefore, times when it is appropriate or even necessary that steps should be taken to address it.

Not that that makes all such steps taken appropriate or necessary.

 

[3sigma]

There are, therefore, times when it is appropriate or even necessary that steps should be taken to address it.

When is it ever appropriate to punish someone for blasphemy with imprisonment or death? How do you justify the desire to punish people for blasphemy? What right do you think religious believers have to impose their will on others in such a way?

 

[synger]

I think it comes from the idea that a society has the right to punish those who think differently than the majority. For instance, I tend to see "hate speech" legislation as the modern equivalent to the old blasphemy laws. There are laws against beating someone up, and if someone is beaten the perpetrators should be punished. But if instead the perpetrator didn't physically harm them, but called them names or said they were less than human, etc., they can be prosecuted in some places for their words.

That's very similar to blasphemy laws, where what one group thinks is right is challenged by another group. And we still punish for it. I disagree with both blasphemy laws and hate speech laws. I think punishment should be for actions, not words (aside from the normal slander/libel laws, which address a specific harmful result of words).

If you are asking for the overall Christian reaction to blasphemy, though, I don't think there is one. We are forbidden to blaspheme God. It's one of the commandments at the heart of God's law. But I think you'll find a wide variety of implementation of that commandment, and even wider opinions on how much, if at all, our obedience to that commandment should be codified in our civil laws.

 

[3sigma]

There are laws against beating someone up, and if someone is beaten the perpetrators should be punished. But if instead the perpetrator didn't physically harm them, but called them names or said they were less than human, etc., they can be prosecuted in some places for their words.

That's very similar to blasphemy laws, where what one group thinks is right is challenged by another group.

No, it isn’t similar to blasphemy at all and this is where the problem lies. In the case of blasphemy, who has been beaten up or called names? Where is the victim? Blasphemy isn’t beating up or insulting religious believers, it’s insulting their God. What right do the religious believers have to punish someone for something that hasn’t harmed them? It’s like thinking you have the right to imprison or kill someone for insulting your favourite celebrity.

 

[synger]

In the case of hate speech, the insult is to a group, but people of that group take it as disrespecting them and their race/beliefs/lifestyle/etc.

In the case of blasphemy, the insult is to God, but people who serve that God take it as disrespecting them and their beliefs.

I still see them as similar. And I still think neither of them should be punished by civil/criminal law. Unless there is a direct harm shown (as in cases of libel or slander), words should not be punished.

 

[3sigma]

In the case of blasphemy, the insult is to God, but people who serve that God take it as disrespecting them and their beliefs.

Religious believers take blasphemy as disrespecting them and their beliefs. This is where the problem lies. Do people have the right to kill people who don’t respect their beliefs? Do people have the right to imprison people who don’t respect their beliefs? Do people have the right to punish in any way at all people who don’t respect their beliefs?

For example, millions of people strongly believe that astrology is true even though it has never been shown to be true. If I say that astrology is a load of nonsense, do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all? Similarly, the belief that your God exists has never been shown to be true. If I show no respect for that belief, do religious believers have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

 

[ebia]

Religious believers take blasphemy as disrespecting them and their beliefs. This is where the problem lies. Do people have the right to kill people who don’t respect their beliefs? Do people have the right to imprison people who don’t respect their beliefs? Do people have the right to punish in any way at all people who don’t respect their beliefs?

For example, millions of people strongly believe that astrology is true even though it has never been shown to be true. If I say that astrology is a load of nonsense, do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all? Similarly, the belief that your God exists has never been shown to be true. If I show no respect for that belief, do religious believers have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

Depends how you express that lack of respect.

 

[ebia]

When is it ever appropriate to punish someone for blasphemy with imprisonment or death?

I wouldn't use death as a punishment for anything, and someone's disrespectful behaviour would have to be pretty extreme - amounting to, for example, stirring up ethnic hatred say, to warant imprisonment.

How do you justify the desire to punish people for blasphemy?

I don't desire to punish anybody for anything, but some behavior is harmful and has to be addressed.

What right do you think religious believers have to impose their will on others in such a way?

Living in community necessitates some setting of boundaries and imposition of will.

 

[3sigma]

Depends how you express that lack of respect.

Well, as blasphemy, of course. That is, after all, what this thread is about.

For example, millions of people strongly believe that astrology is true even though it has never been shown to be true. If I say that astrology is a load of nonsense, do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all? Similarly, the belief that your God exists has never been shown to be true. If I show no respect for that belief, by blaspheming, do religious believers have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

 

[ebia]

Well, as blasphemy, of course. That is, after all, what this thread is about.

The word blasphemy covers a multitude of things.

For example, millions of people strongly believe that astrology is true even though it has never been shown to be true. If I say that astrology is a load of nonsense, do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

Depends how you say it. If you do so in a way that is or brings about harm or damages relationships or is otherwise inappropriate then it needs to be addressed in ways consistant with the harm done.

 

[3sigma]

The word blasphemy covers a multitude of things.

I’m using the dictionary meaning I gave in the OP. Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God.

Depends how you say it.

Well, for my astrology example, I say it exactly as I described, “Astrology is a load of nonsense”. If I say that then do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

Now, because of the rules here on CF, I’m probably not allowed to give you an example of blasphemy, but just imagine I said something that you would consider to be insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for your God. If I said something like that, would you have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all? If you think you do have that right then please justify it. If you don’t think you have that right then how do you justify religious believers killing, imprisoning or punishing people who show a lack of reverence for their God?

 

[ebia]

I’m using the dictionary meaning I gave in the OP. Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God.

Yes, but that can take many forms, from (say) an idle swearword when you hit your thumb with a hammer to defaceing (say) the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Well, for my astrology example, I say it exactly as I described, “Astrology is a load of nonsense”. If I say that then do those who believe astrology is true have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

The context and manner in which you said that would matter. If (somehow) it were in a context where it noticeable harm to persons and/or relationships then yes, it ought to be addressed in some way.

Now, because of the rules here on CF, I’m probably not allowed to give you an example of blasphemy, but just imagine I said something that you would consider to be insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for your God. If I said something like that, would you have the right to kill me, imprison me or punish me in any way at all?

Again, whether that right would depend (doubly) on context. 1 - the context above that would determine whether it needed to be addressed and 2 - the context that would determine whether I'm the person who ought to address it. If, say, it were one of my student shouting out inapprorpiate stuff during a school Mass, then yes - it would be up to me to address it.

If you think you do have that right then please justify it. If you don’t think you have that right then how do you justify religious believers killing, imprisoning or punishing people who show a lack of reverence for their God?

I don't justify anyone killing anyone for lack of reverence for anything. I can't think of many examples where imprisonment is appropriate, and the right to do that normally (quite appropriately) is vested in the state, not in individuals. "Punishment", however, is rather a broad term. If, for example, you owned a shop and choose to display material in your window denegrating - lets say - the Muslim faith then I would feel entitled to 'punish' you by taking my custom elsewhere.