Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,822
10,797
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟838,121.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I hope you do not fear me. I speak in tongues usually everyday. But nearly always in private. I do not belong to a church that accepts them but I am looking.

I think that it is the manner in which tongues are spoken. I believe that the proper way to speak in tongues is to speak in the same way that any person speaking a normal language, whatever it is.

It is possible to get all spooky when speaking English, and all you have to hear is the way some Anglican or Catholic priests read the liturgy. They read it in a very dramatic, super-spiritual, "spooky" way a lot, as if God is the type of Person who needs to be spoken to like that.

It is like people giving dramatic, long, prophecies in King James English. These are usually well forgotten by the time the next hymn is sung, so they are usually a waste of time and effort. Such is the way of the flesh.

If a person speaks in tongues and it sounds spooky and scary, you can bet your bottom dollar that it comes from either the devil or the flesh.

If you listen to an ordinary person speaking Mandarin, Spanish or Hindi, although you don't understand a word of what they are saying, you are not spooked by it. You recognise that this is ordinary speech in a foreign language. Tongues should sound the same. It is the flesh that adds the drama to it, and usually the tongues speaker is doing just to impress the people around him, and this is a sign of hypocrisy more than a genuine Spirit-filled believer.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,822
10,797
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟838,121.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Tongues is a gift that accompanies the Baptism with The Spirit. To speak in tongues genuinely, one must genuinely be baptised in The Spirit. Therefore we have to go back to the original experience of being baptised in The Spirit. To do this, we must go back to the Book of Acts and see what happened to those who were baptised in The Spirit.

We see that something definite happened to them, and they received a very strong sense of the presence of God and the reality of Jesus. They received boldness to testify of Christ and His resurrection. Unsaved people around them become convicted of their sin, and either cried out wanting to be saved, or they opposed and persecuted the believers.

If a person says they are baptised in The Spirit and this has not happened, are they genuinely baptised in The Spirit?

If they are concentrating on the gifts, and leaving Jesus out of the experience, this might be a sign that they are not truly filled with The Spirit in the same way that the New Testament believers were.

So, speaking in tongues may not mean that a person is genuinely filled with The Spirit, if there are no other indications present, especially if that person does not radiate the presence of God and the love of Christ through his life and conduct.

If we read the history of revivals in the Protestant Church, we see the effects of a whole lot of people getting baptised in The Spirit at once, even though they never spoke in tongues; yet whole communities came to Christ because the unbelievers sensed the presence of Christ in a very real and intense way through these believers.

I wonder if most of our Pentecostal/Charismatic churches are having this effect on the communities around them?

Food for thought.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Excellent post.
Thanks for your comment.
I will be posting some comments to your question, "What meetings are you referring to? How has this been a problem? To who exactly?" in the next few hours - thanks again!
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Tongues is a gift that accompanies the Baptism with The Spirit...
Hi Oscarr, it's good to see you around. From memory I think that you recently went through a few health issues, I trust that all is well.
 
Upvote 0

Lazydaisy67

Newbie
Dec 29, 2012
107
8
✟7,789.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
This particular topic is fairly confusing to me. I wasn't raised in a tongue-speaking church but my aunt was attending a charismatic church in the 70's and gave my mom a tape of the church service to listen to. I remember very distinctly as a child getting shivers and the hair on the back of my neck standing up when I heard that tape. It really frightened me, like deep down. I kinda even felt a little sick
Fast forward to about 3 years ago. My husband and I began attending an Abundant Life church. Felt acceptance and kindness there and decided to go to the membership class. 6 weeks of why, how, when, where to talk in tongues. Ok, fine. I'll go along with it even though the flags were starting to wave in my mind. Hubby was getting good things out of the church so I remained silent for his benefit. On the last day of the class the pastor came in and asked who wanted the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hubby said he did. He prayed with/for him and then began to instruct him on how to make the tongues flow out of him. He followed their instructions, humming, saying "ha ha ha" etc.....nada. The pastor got sort of frustrated but told him to 'practice' at home. I'm thinking, "Wait a second, if this is a gift that comes upon you from the Holy Spirit why would you have to practice it?" Whatever, fine.
At Wednesday night prayer service, I'd sit and listen, praying (in English) quietly and the pastor would say he 'felt so sorry for those who didn't pray in tongues because their prayers just fall flat' or 'those who don't pray in the spirit just don't reach God with their petitions'. Um...ok so I'll just pray for that gift and if God wants to give it to me that's great, but will my prayer life be null and void if I never get this gift? Should I even bother praying anymore? We are both open to receiving the gift, want it even, but it just hasn't happened.
Several other things eventually happened at that church and I also began to do some more research into the WOF thing and we decided that we couldn't attend that church anymore. I'm torn on the issue. I have accepted Jesus as my savior, but feel like it's implied somehow that we're not "really Christian" if we're not talking in tongues. I do believe it is a real gift, but I don't believe that everybody can or does have it. I'm not entirely sure it can be turn and off like a switch. My personal opinion is that when/if it happens it's more like a freight train that cannot be stopped until it's done. I also question the sociological implications of prayer in tongues, at least in a service with a group of people. It's not unusual for some people to fake that kind of thing for acceptance. So anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,822
10,797
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟838,121.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Hi Oscarr, it's good to see you around. From memory I think that you recently went through a few health issues, I trust that all is well.

Everything is ok now. I have been doing a lot of face-to-face ministry and that is why I have been missing in action for a while.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,822
10,797
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟838,121.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I hope you don't mind me responding and giving my views.

I had the first 12 years of my Christian life in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, and the next 30 odd years in Anglican, Baptist, and for the last 18 years in a Presbyterian Church. I still believe in the Baptism with The Spirit and the gifts, but I would never go back to a P/C church - mainly because the type of P/C church I was converted in during the late 1960s was quite different to what it is now.


This particular topic is fairly confusing to me. I wasn't raised in a tongue-speaking church but my aunt was attending a charismatic church in the 70's and gave my mom a tape of the church service to listen to. I remember very distinctly as a child getting shivers and the hair on the back of my neck standing up when I heard that tape. It really frightened me, like deep down. I kinda even felt a little sick.

If that is the way you felt, then you can be sure that you were not experiencing the presence of God there. The sign of the presence of God is love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, faith, self control, goodness, patience. Also, for the unconverted person there is a conviction of sin and a strong desire to know how one can be saved. Then The Holy Spirit draws the person to Jesus.

Fast forward to about 3 years ago. My husband and I began attending an Abundant Life church. Felt acceptance and kindness there and decided to go to the membership class. 6 weeks of why, how, when, where to talk in tongues. Ok, fine. I'll go along with it even though the flags were starting to wave in my mind. Hubby was getting good things out of the church so I remained silent for his benefit. On the last day of the class the pastor came in and asked who wanted the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hubby said he did. He prayed with/for him and then began to instruct him on how to make the tongues flow out of him. He followed their instructions, humming, saying "ha ha ha" etc.....nada. The pastor got sort of frustrated but told him to 'practice' at home. I'm thinking, "Wait a second, if this is a gift that comes upon you from the Holy Spirit why would you have to practice it?" Whatever, fine.

That pastor needs to go back and read his Bible properly. This way of getting a person baptised in The Spirit and speaking in tongues is an absolute nonsense way of going about it, and comes directly from the flesh and not The Spirit. I have strong doubts as to whether that pastor is actually baptised in The Spirit! The gift of tongues is bestowed by The Spirit and it is either there or not. We cannot give ourselves the gift of tongues. Even though I encourage some steps of faith to receive it (asking, then receiving, and then stepping out in faith), if The Spirit doesn't come to the party and inspire the words and initiate the flow, it doesn't matter how long one tries to practice it, it will not come until The Spirit does it. I learned with one person with whom I tried my method, and it would not work; and then I gave the guy up to the Lord and said "Lord Jesus, You are the baptiser in the Spirit, and so I leave this guy to You." Immediately, without any further prompting, he went "Oh!" and broke out in tongues - not the ba ba ba type, but full and beautiful language that flowed out of him.

At Wednesday night prayer service, I'd sit and listen, praying (in English) quietly and the pastor would say he 'felt so sorry for those who didn't pray in tongues because their prayers just fall flat' or 'those who don't pray in the spirit just don't reach God with their petitions'.

I have just one word for that and it is not very complimentary and would not be permitted on this forum. This pastor does not know much about the Bible by the sound of it, and he has little idea about Church history where believers prayed down the glory of God without speaking a word of tongues!

To say that people who don't pray in tongues don't reach God with their petitions is absolute and utter rubbish!!! It is so contrary to God's Word that I am becoming more and more certain that this pastor got his ministry credentials out of a Cornflakes packet! I wonder if his qualifications come from a diploma mill website????

Um...ok so I'll just pray for that gift and if God wants to give it to me that's great, but will my prayer life be null and void if I never get this gift? Should I even bother praying anymore? We are both open to receiving the gift, want it even, but it just hasn't happened.

Don't worry about it. Get on with using the gifts that God has already given you and do them well. Keep knocking at God's door for more of the power of The Holy Spirit, and wait on Him to give you what He wants you to have. Don't be pressured by any turkey that thinks you should have what he thinks you should have. Jesus knows you better, and will give you all the resources you need to live a holy and effective life for Him.

Several other things eventually happened at that church and I also began to do some more research into the WOF thing and we decided that we couldn't attend that church anymore.

Good decision. It's better to join a good traditional church that is more of a family of faith made up of people who love the Lord, even if they don't move extensively in the gifts of the Spirit.

I'm torn on the issue. I have accepted Jesus as my savior, but feel like it's implied somehow that we're not "really Christian" if we're not talking in tongues.

If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for you, and that He rose again, and you are doing your best to live a holy life for His glory, then you are a real Christian. The gifts of The Spirit are resources for ministry. You already have been baptised into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you to keep you on the path to sanctification. The Baptism with The Spirit is given to equip believers with power for ministry, and He falls on those who are already genuine Christians. Tongues is just one of those gifts. There are more powerful indications of the Baptism with The Spirit, and if you and your husband are being effective in getting others to understand the Gospel, you can have the confidence that you are actually baptised with The Spirit, because that is what it is for.

I do believe it is a real gift, but I don't believe that everybody can or does have it. I'm not entirely sure it can be turn and off like a switch. My personal opinion is that when/if it happens it's more like a freight train that cannot be stopped until it's done.

You are correct. The examples of The Spirit falling on people in the book of Acts shows that when a person is baptised with The Spirit, something definite and dynamic happens either to them or the people around them. Christian revival is a whole lot of people being baptised with The Spirit all at once. If you read the history of revivals in the Christian Church, you will see the different effects of believers being baptised in The Spirit, especially in those revivals where tongues was not spoken, but Christians were empowered and many unconverted people got saved and joined the church. It is God who turns on a revival, and it is Him who turns it off again. You see that in the history. One revival happened just two years with one minister who became very powerful and won 500 people to Christ. Then after two years, he returned back to normal and it never happened to him again; but he never forgot that time for the rest of his life.

I also question the sociological implications of prayer in tongues, at least in a service with a group of people. It's not unusual for some people to fake that kind of thing for acceptance. So anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth.

I could be tarred and feathered in many Pentecostal churches for saying this, but you are correct in your thinking about this. Most of tongues-speaking that is done in church services in front of others comes more from the flesh than from The Spirit. It is a sign of religious hypocrisy that people are more concerned about showing their spirituality in front of others, but not much is in evidence when they are by themselves with no one watching. I wonder how many of these people raise their hands, speak in tongues, dance, shout, fall over, etc at home when there are no others except their families to see them. If you want to know how genuinely spiritual I am, just ask my wife. She has to live with me from day to day, and has to put up with my faults and shortcomings.

In a Bible study I shocked people by saying that the toilet is the great leveller of people. We all have to sit there, and what we produce in the bowl stinks. The other test of true Christian faith is how we conduct ourselves before our fellow workers at the workplace on Monday morning, or among the other ladies at the laundrimat. I would rather save my demonstrations of spirituality and faith when I am on my own with God, out of the sight of others; then I can be assured that it is real and genuine, and not just to please the onlookers.

I trust that this encourages you and anyone who is reading this who has the same difficulties.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
What meetings are you referring to? How has this been a problem? To who exactly?

What meetings are you referring to? How has this been a problem? To who exactly?
With most books and articles that are written on either a specific book or chapter of the Bible, there is a tendency on the part of many Bible publishers and commentators to over simplify their content, where we find Bible editors in particular placing what I consider to be frequently unhelpful chapter headings. Some editors will say that 1 Corinthians 14 is about the abuse of tongues or that prophecy is superior to tongues; more recent works have in my view appropriately raised the issue that one of Pauls main themes in chapter 14 is with that of intelligibility as against that of unintelligibility within the congregational setting. Even though Paul addresses a number of issues in this chapter, he certainly spends a fair amount of time addressing disorder in the church and he starts to do this back in 11:17.
In 1 Co 11:17, Paul says to the Corinthians, “Your meetings do more harm than good” where he addresses their horrid abuse of the Lords Supper; this may have been occurring in their (what we believe to be) home church meetings and/or in some larger less frequent gatherings of the various home churches.
What meetings are you referring to? How has this been a problem? To who exactly?
When we reach 1Co 12:1 we find Paul addressing a new subject which he places under “Now about spiritual matters…”. Before Paul moves into the Trinitarian ministry of the local congregation, he quickly brings up another issue which is concerning him in 12:2-3. At this current time, every translation will say “Jesus be cursed” but in 2000 Dr. Bruce Winter released some new archaeological research into the numerous cursing tablets that have been found not only throughout Europe and modern Turkey but specifically with that of Corinth. It seems that the Corinthian believers (or maybe just a few) were writing curses (on lead tablets) against their enemies/opponents asking that the Holy Spirit or the Trinity in general would curse some specific individual. Considering that there is no verb between “Jesus curse”, the term ΑΝΑΘΕΜΑ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ can be written as either “Jesus be cursed” or “Jesus curse” then this new information tends to lean toward Paul addressing how spirit filled believers are still using the old worldly practice of placing curses and that they are calling on the name of Jesus to do this; for Paul this is both unthinkable and unfathomable.
Even though Paul has addressed this letter to the Corinthian church, he knew full well that it would be circulated throughout the entire church which is why I think that he has gone to such detail with first prescribing the Trinitarian aspects (1Co 12:4,5 & 6) of the ministry of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11), the Son (1Co 12:12-27) and with that of the Father (1Co 12:28-30). In chapter 14 with verses 1-33, he now raises his concerns with how the Corinthians are mishandling some of the Manifestations of the Spirit (1 Co 12:7-11) and particularly with how they are improperly allowing their congregations to pray in the Spirit corporately within their meetings – which is commonly encountered even today and probably in other congregations throughout the Roman world of Pauls time.
If we take the following verses out of chapter 14, we can see Pauls concern with inappropriate activity in the congregational meeting; as such we could define his concerns in verses 1 through to 33 as being with unintelligibility as against his prescribed intelligibility.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22 Tongues, then, are a [negative] sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is [positive] not for unbelievers but for believers.

23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

What meetings are you referring to? How has this been a problem? To who exactly?
Even though Paul is speaking about a set of problems that existed within the Corinthian church of the day; for those of us who have been able to experience the practices of our contemporary Full Gospel churches, we can see how Pauls strong words that forbid the corporate use of tongues in our general meetings as being as applicable now as they were in his day. Over the years, leaving aside the many written accounts that I have come across, I have certainly seen how many people (be they unsaved or cessationists) have been confused and visibly upset when they have suddenly found themselves standing amongst a few dozen or even a few hundred people who are all inappropriately singing in tongues. At times we can have a thousand or so individuals being separately involved in worship and not a people of God who are supposed to be united in worship.
 
Upvote 0

NorrinRadd

Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
Sep 2, 2007
5,571
595
Wayne Township, PA, USA
✟8,652.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
This particular topic is fairly confusing to me. I wasn't raised in a tongue-speaking church...

I was raised nominally Lutheran, but with no church attendance and virtually no "practice" -- prayer, Bible-reading, etc. As a kid, I sometimes attended "Vacation Bible School" at the church of whatever acquaintance invited me. That was in the late '60s to maybe early '70s.


but my aunt was attending a charismatic church in the 70's and gave my mom a tape of the church service to listen to. I remember very distinctly as a child getting shivers and the hair on the back of my neck standing up when I heard that tape. It really frightened me, like deep down. I kinda even felt a little sick

I was "born again" while away at college early in 1980, a few months before turning 20. Later that year, a girl from my circle of friends brought a tape of herself getting filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. No one else in the group was Pentecostal, so I don't recall much discussion of it. But that was my first exposure to it. It seemed odd, but not scary.

A few years later, I was at a Bible study at a coffeehouse back at home, and noticed some of my friends praying softly in tongues during the prayer time. Also odd but not scary. But I was not ready to accept their invitation to visit their Pentecostal church.

Around February '84, I listened to some teaching tapes by Pat Robertson on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and was filled with the Spirit and began praying in tongues. After that, I began attending that Pentecostal church, and of course the tongues-speaking didn't seem odd at all.


Fast forward to about 3 years ago. My husband and I began attending an Abundant Life church. Felt acceptance and kindness there and decided to go to the membership class. 6 weeks of why, how, when, where to talk in tongues. Ok, fine. I'll go along with it even though the flags were starting to wave in my mind. Hubby was getting good things out of the church so I remained silent for his benefit. On the last day of the class the pastor came in and asked who wanted the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hubby said he did. He prayed with/for him and then began to instruct him on how to make the tongues flow out of him. He followed their instructions, humming, saying "ha ha ha" etc.....nada. The pastor got sort of frustrated but told him to 'practice' at home. I'm thinking, "Wait a second, if this is a gift that comes upon you from the Holy Spirit why would you have to practice it?" Whatever, fine.

Normally you shouldn't need to "practice" it or try to "make" it happen, but you also shouldn't expect God to grab you and work you like a hand-puppet.


At Wednesday night prayer service, I'd sit and listen, praying (in English) quietly and the pastor would say he 'felt so sorry for those who didn't pray in tongues because their prayers just fall flat' or 'those who don't pray in the spirit just don't reach God with their petitions'. Um...ok so I'll just pray for that gift and if God wants to give it to me that's great, but will my prayer life be null and void if I never get this gift? Should I even bother praying anymore? We are both open to receiving the gift, want it even, but it just hasn't happened.

That's an unfortunate attitude on the part of that pastor. He's going way beyond what Scripture teaches.


Several other things eventually happened at that church and I also began to do some more research into the WOF thing and we decided that we couldn't attend that church anymore.

That's odd. I have plenty of issues with WoF teaching and practice, but it's not typical of them to believe that the only prayers that "work" are prayers in tongues.


I'm torn on the issue. I have accepted Jesus as my savior, but feel like it's implied somehow that we're not "really Christian" if we're not talking in tongues. I do believe it is a real gift, but I don't believe that everybody can or does have it. I'm not entirely sure it can be turn and off like a switch. My personal opinion is that when/if it happens it's more like a freight train that cannot be stopped until it's done.

I don't know why some people receive the gift easily, some seem to struggle, and some never receive it. My reading of Scripture is that it is available to all. But the "freight train" idea is not consistent with Scripture. If you're waiting for God to cram the Holy Spirit's hand into the back of your head like Kermit the Frog and "make" you speak in tongues, you'll still be waiting when Jesus comes back. Scripture says that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." That means that, while the Holy Spirit provides the enabling, and at times may even cause an urgent prompting to speak, WE retain control as to whether or not to ACTUALLY speak. That is a difference between speaking by the Spirit of God and speaking while driven by a demon. It is also a difference between speaking by the Spirit as a New Covenant gift, and speaking by the Spirit as an Old Covenant punishment (e.g. King Saul).


I also question the sociological implications of prayer in tongues, at least in a service with a group of people. It's not unusual for some people to fake that kind of thing for acceptance. So anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth.

I'm sure that's possible. Also hard to prove.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Several other things eventually happened at that church and I also began to do some more research into the WOF thing and we decided that we couldn't attend that church anymore.
OK, whenever I see the wof flag raised I can understand why you have had your concerns as their distinctives tend to be way off base.
On the last day of the class the pastor came in and asked who wanted the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hubby said he did. He prayed with/for him and then began to instruct him on how to make the tongues flow out of him. He followed their instructions, humming, saying "ha ha ha" etc.....nada. The pastor got sort of frustrated but told him to 'practice' at home. I'm thinking, "Wait a second, if this is a gift that comes upon you from the Holy Spirit why would you have to practice it?" Whatever, fine.
This can be a hard one to address as it seems that our Western mindset tends to often get in the way of opening up to the Spirit – at least that’s how I begin to explain things. In my situation, where I was first prayed for as a fairly new 18 year old believer by a number of sincere and enthusiastic members at the conclusion to a local FGBMFI meeting, I sat down with maybe a dozen others to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues but nothing happened. About four hours later I was sitting in my car outside of a shop while I was waiting for my mother when I simply decided to speak in tongues – and I did! How do I explain this, well I really can’t but all I can think of was that the earlier rather imposing setting was maybe a bit too much for me and considering my supine temperament the car scenario was probably more to my liking. But one thing that I knew without absolutely any doubt, whereas before, where I would often ask “How do I really know that I have the Holy Spirit”, this was no longer a question that I ever had to ask again as I knew full well from that very moment that the Spirit of God was now within me.

At Wednesday night prayer service, I'd sit and listen, praying (in English) quietly and the pastor would say he 'felt so sorry for those who didn't pray in tongues because their prayers just fall flat' or 'those who don't pray in the spirit just don't reach God with their petitions'.
To say that a believers petition “falls flat” is not the best way to say it. I have no doubt that we can be far more effective in our prayers/petitions when we can pray in the Spirit (tongues) as the Holy Spirit knows our situation better than we do and if we are asking for someone else, he is able to effectively address their needs by interceding for them in line with Gods purposes – something which we cannot do. We should never say that such people “just don’t reach God with their petitions” as this is certainly not true as the Father will always here the prayers of his children even if they speak in tongues or not. Though I would have to say that if I suddenly took gravely ill that I would prefer that those who are standing around me in prayer that they were able to pray in the Spirit, but for him to say that their prayers would fail to reach the Lord would certainly be untrue.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I don't know why some people receive the gift easily, some seem to struggle, and some never receive it. My reading of Scripture is that it is available to all. But the "freight train" idea is not consistent with Scripture. If you're waiting for God to cram the Holy Spirit's hand into the back of your head like Kermit the Frog and "make" you speak in tongues, you'll still be waiting when Jesus comes back.
Well said.
 
Upvote 0

Lazydaisy67

Newbie
Dec 29, 2012
107
8
✟7,789.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
Thank you, guys for your responses. The pastor and his wife both got their degrees at Rhema Bible College so they're HUGE Ken Hagan and Copeland fans. Me...not so much.
The church structure was also a very controlling environment. The board members were appointed for life and the congregation was not only not told about a lot of decisions made behind closed doors, but never voted on an decision. Even one as major as firing the youth pastor.
At any rate, your insight on this topic has been appreciated.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The pastor and his wife both got their degrees at Rhema Bible College so they're HUGE Ken Hagan and Copeland fans. Me...not so much.
Even though the Rhema factor would undoubtedly attract a few people, for me this certainly would not be a draw card.
The church structure was also a very controlling environment. The board members were appointed for life and the congregation was not only not told about a lot of decisions made behind closed doors, but never voted on a decision.
Sadly, this type of control is not unique to that of the wof movement as it seems to be the methodology that is employed by many insecure and theologically bereft leadership across countless denominational lines.
 
Upvote 0

Yahu

Jezebel's bain
May 14, 2012
2,349
212
✟3,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Several other things eventually happened at that church and I also began to do some more research into the WOF thing and we decided that we couldn't attend that church anymore. I'm torn on the issue.

IMO you may be better off staying away from the WoF. There tend to be alot of false tongues in the WoF I attended.

Now the only time I ever laid hands on someone to give them the baptism of the HS I didn't have to teach her how to speak in tongues. She didn't even know of the existence of tongues.

I just asked her to speak whatever came to her and out came a sentence in what sounded like Chinese. It shocked her so much she covered her mouth with her hand then asked in shock, 'WHAT was THAT?' I had to explain to her what tongues were and what they were for.

You should NEVER have to practice how to speak in tongues if you have the gift, you have it. It just wells up from within you.

The same is the case for prophecy at least it is in my case. For example the prophetic word in my sig. I was only given the 1st 3 words until I spoke them then more words came phrase at a time.
 
Upvote 0

Yahu

Jezebel's bain
May 14, 2012
2,349
212
✟3,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Thank you, guys for your responses. The pastor and his wife both got their degrees at Rhema Bible College so they're HUGE Ken Hagan and Copeland fans. Me...not so much.
The church structure was also a very controlling environment. The board members were appointed for life and the congregation was not only not told about a lot of decisions made behind closed doors, but never voted on an decision. Even one as major as firing the youth pastor.
At any rate, your insight on this topic has been appreciated.

I went to another WoF college. I didn't even know what WoF was at the time. I just knew it was a spirit filled college that specialized in spiritual warfare and claimed to only teach scripture, not doctrines of man. That turned out to be an outright lie.

I learned enough WoF doctrine to know how far off base they are. I did learn spiritual warfare but it was against the spirits operating in the place.

There were people there that had attended Rhema and their doctrine was just as screwed up IMO.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
There were people there that had attended Rhema and their doctrine was just as screwed up IMO.
Here in Australia, our education system is highly regulated and any organisation that offers a diploma, a Masters or a Doctorate must be registered with the government; anyone who tries to make some form of financial gain while using a fake Doctorate may likely face jail time. I realise that US qualifications seem to be unregulated but with regard to Rhema in the USA, do you know where they stand on this issue - are their qualifications generally accepted by US Universities?
 
Upvote 0

Yahu

Jezebel's bain
May 14, 2012
2,349
212
✟3,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Here in Australia, our education system is highly regulated and any organisation that offers a diploma, a Masters or a Doctorate must be registered with the government; anyone who tries to make some form of financial gain while using a fake Doctorate may likely face jail time. I realise that US qualifications seem to be unregulated but with regard to Rhema in the USA, do you know where they stand on this issue - are their qualifications generally accepted by US Universities?

Considering it is a religious college, it is not regulated by the state by my understanding. I do not know who offers accreditation for the college. The WoF college I attended has lost its accreditation while I was there.

Now when I said it was screwy, I meant the doctrines that they taught.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Considering it is a religious college, it is not regulated by the state by my understanding. I do not know who offers accreditation for the college. The WoF college I attended has lost its accreditation while I was there.
It seems that Rhema often make the claim that they have hundreds of colleges around the world with thousands of students on their books; here in Australia, I think that they have only one college which is a part of a small church which offers a pretty basic Certificate style course. If anyone has any knowledge with Rhema having accredited colleges in North America, the UK and Europe that could prove interesting.

In Australia, all of our theological institutions that offer degree or higher education courses are required to hold government accreditation, either directly with the government or through an approved education body.
 
Upvote 0

D2wing

Newbie
Feb 12, 2013
366
120
✟15,892.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I pretty much agree with Norin radd. I hope that I did not step too hard on anyone's toes earlier.
I think we need to be more careful not to let divisions crop up or any bitterness and not quench the spirit. It seems the goal of satan is to make us argue and lose our love for one another and criticize especially the more powerful weapons against Satan.
Let's focus here. Our goal should be to gain in power and unity in the spirit.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,000
Melbourne, Australia
✟52,026.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As the topic of praying in the Spirit is a fundamental aspect of any form of Full Gospel theology, this means that our differences (either presumed or assumed on the part of another) that they can understandably be passionately challenged – which is a good thing. The worst thing that could happen is that we show a disinterest with opinions that differ from our own, and even worse, that we have a disinterest with opinions in general.
 
Upvote 0