Thoughts on Dave Hunt? 3 questions please

[Faulty]

They are only exceptions because of unbelief. They should be the norm.

It was Jesus Himself who said that if we ask the Father for a good gift He will not give us a serpent, so your concern about communicating with a demon is not just unlikely it would make God a liar, assuming that it is a child of God who is asking.

Then are you saying it be safe to ask God to communicate through Ouiji boards and tarot cards without having to worry about any outside "interference"?

 

[jiminpa]

Then are you saying it be safe to ask God to communicate through Ouiji boards and tarot cards without having to worry about any outside "interference"?

Really? You need to stretch it that far to prove your point? If I ask God to say whatever He wants me to know and then think what I hear important enough to write down, how is that like asking God to speak to me and then before I give Him a chance to answer asking Satan what God would say to me? Or maybe I should ask God to speak, and not write down what He says. Or ask Him to speak and not expect Him to. Maybe I should just agree with the cessationists that contrary to what the Bible says, God doesn't speak to His children anymore.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

They are only exceptions because of unbelief. They should be the norm.

It was Jesus Himself who said that if we ask the Father for a good gift He will not give us a serpent, so your concern about communicating with a demon is not just unlikely it would make God a liar, assuming that it is a child of God who is asking.

If this were an accurate description of the situation, then there would be no unanswered prayers by Christians in a state of grace. Obviously, there are, because not everything we will is something that God wills, and when our wills conflict, then God's overrules. We don't always know the reasons why God refuses to answer a specific prayer, and so presuming that God will always answer our prayers if we are living a godly life and have no reason to believe that we have drifted away from Him leads to an inaccurate concept of how prayer really works.

God is not our servant, or a vending machine where you insert prayer and get what you ask. The Bible also states that God grants prayer according to His own will. We are not always correct in thinking that what we pray for will be to our or anyone else's benefit, even when we have no reason to believe that it will cause harm. God understands better than we do.

So, when we pray for God to grant us knowledge in a specific way, we do not have a guarantee that God will do that. That goes back to the original statements I made. Many times, we deceive ourselves in a situation like that. I remember, several years ago during a bout of obsessive compulsive disorder (in the summer of 2008, when I was 16 and before I became Catholic), praying and looking through the Bible to try to find a verse to answer my concerns about specific intrusive thoughts (this was the whole "bibliomancy" thing that I was talking about earlier). I found a verse that seemed to answer in the affirmative, that what I was doing inadvertently was wrong. Clearly, that was not some sort of sign from God.

Later, when I actually sat down and read the gospels, that was when I felt the love of God in my heart, and saw that He is a good Lord and a blessed refuge for the weary.

You can take that for what it's worth, really. Anecdotes aren't necessarily that valuable. Still, I think that this expresses the danger of allowing our own faulty psychology as a potential sign from God pretty succinctly.

 

[jiminpa]

If this were an accurate description of the situation, then there would be no unanswered prayers by Christians in a state of grace. Obviously, there are, because not everything we will is something that God wills, and when our wills conflict, then God's overrules. We don't always know the reasons why God refuses to answer a specific prayer, and so presuming that God will always answer our prayers if we are living a godly life and have no reason to believe that we have drifted away from Him leads to an inaccurate concept of how prayer really works.

God is not our servant, or a vending machine where you insert prayer and get what you ask. The Bible also states that God grants prayer according to His own will. We are not always correct in thinking that what we pray for will be to our or anyone else's benefit, even when we have no reason to believe that it will cause harm. God understands better than we do.

So, when we pray for God to grant us knowledge in a specific way, we do not have a guarantee that God will do that. That goes back to the original statements I made. Many times, we deceive ourselves in a situation like that. I remember, several years ago during a bout of obsessive compulsive disorder (in the summer of 2008, when I was 16 and before I became Catholic), praying and looking through the Bible to try to find a verse to answer my concerns about specific intrusive thoughts (this was the whole "bibliomancy" thing that I was talking about earlier). I found a verse that seemed to answer in the affirmative, that what I was doing inadvertently was wrong. Clearly, that was not some sort of sign from God.

Later, when I actually sat down and read the gospels, that was when I felt the love of God in my heart, and saw that He is a good Lord and a blessed refuge for the weary.

You can take that for what it's worth, really. Anecdotes aren't necessarily that valuable. Still, I think that this expresses the danger of allowing our own faulty psychology as a potential sign from God pretty succinctly.

All I did was quote Jesus about the Father's goodness. If you are confident in your own wisdom enough to call God a liar that's your business.

Since you admitted that you believe, contrary to the teaching of scripture, that the gifts of the Spirit are exceptions, I consider you a neo-cessationist, and will limit my answers to you, since I consider actual answers troll feeding.

 

[Faulty]

Really? You need to stretch it that far to prove your point? If I ask God to say whatever He wants me to know and then think what I hear important enough to write down, how is that like asking God to speak to me and then before I give Him a chance to answer asking Satan what God would say to me? Or maybe I should ask God to speak, and not write down what He says. Or ask Him to speak and not expect Him to. Maybe I should just agree with the cessationists that contrary to what the Bible says, God doesn't speak to His children anymore.

You're the one who took it that far, not me. It's a common method to reach other spirits just be clearing your mind and sitting there with a journal, and writing down whatever is heard. I just wanted to know if you thought some other methods of spiritists were viable as well.

Seems like you want it both ways.

 

[MikeBigg]

It seems to me that this Christian thing is all about a living relationship with the Living God.

What kind of relationship would it be if we didn't sit down for a chat every now and then.

Sure God can speak through books (including The Book), but he can also speak in many other ways including directly to us.

Also, it is possible to mis-hear. Just like in any other relationship.

To suggest that sitting down for a time with our heavenly Daddy, expecting Him to speak is wrong is in my view simply ludicrous.

Will He always speak? Probably not. Will we always hear when He does speak? Probably not? Will we ever hear the wrong voice? Probably. This is why the gift of discernment exists.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

"is Derek Prince solid?"

I listened to his ministry extensively back in the '70s and '80s, and consider him as about as solid as Human Ministry gets.

Same here (but not in the 70s ).

 

[jiminpa]

You're the one who took it that far, not me. It's a common method to reach other spirits just be clearing your mind and sitting there with a journal, and writing down whatever is heard. I just wanted to know if you thought some other methods of spiritists were viable as well.

Seems like you want it both ways.

When did I ever say anything about ouji boards? You are the one who took it that far.

Do you believe that God still speaks to His people?

 

[Faulty]

When did I ever say anything about ouji boards? You are the one who took it that far.

Do you believe that God still speaks to His people?

I was clear. You are the one supporting sitting there with a journal waiting for voices. That's an occultic practice as well. They hear from spirits doing that.

Now answer my question if you also affirm other practices used to contact demons as well as the journals, or just affirming the journal method is fine with you.

 

[jiminpa]

I was clear. You are the one supporting sitting there with a journal waiting for voices. That's an occultic practice as well. They hear from spirits doing that.

Do you have scriptural support for that assertion or am I to take it on your authority?

 

[dayhiker]

Seems to me Faulty is mixing up auto writing and journaling. Journaling is a very common way people use to get their thoughts down to help remember, to organize ones thoughts and a number of other reasons. None of those are connecting with Satan's realm.

To say other wise about journaling is to say snakes of Satan and we should never touch them, play with them, eat them, see them etc. No God created snakes just like all other animals and Satan just used one in the garden.

If we didn't have journaling, men hearing from God and writing it down we wouldn't have the Bible!

 

[Faulty]

Seems to me Faulty is mixing up auto writing and journaling. Journaling is a very common way people use to get their thoughts down to help remember, to organize ones thoughts and a number of other reasons. None of those are connecting with Satan's realm.

To say other wise about journaling is to say snakes of Satan and we should never touch them, play with them, eat them, see them etc. No God created snakes just like all other animals and Satan just used one in the garden.

If we didn't have journaling, men hearing from God and writing it down we wouldn't have the Bible!

I'm not confusing anything and your analogy doesn't make sense. Spiritists use this process to commune with demons. It's just the way it is.

All I want to know is since this also seems ok to some to "hear from God" using the exact same process, is if it's also ok for us to use the spiritists other methods as well. If that's your belief that one is ok, then I don't see why not.

God never promised to speak that way, ever. And to say we wouldn't have the Bible is ignorant. The prophets weren't sitting there with something to write on each morning saying, "ok God, if you got anything to say, go ahead". Although, that is a good use of the imagination, I must admit.

 

[Faulty]

Do you have scriptural support for that assertion or am I to take it on your authority?

Scriptural support for occultic practices? You are all kinds of turned around in your thinking.

 

[jiminpa]

...

 

[parsley]

is it just the presence of writing utensils that makes your quiet time evil? or is all quiet time just bad in general

Noise, we need noise. And a fig tree to sit under in the heat of the day.

I think, from one of the descriptions here, that he's referring to a specific practice where a person sits at a desk quietly and writes down words that pop into his or her head with the belief that those words may be a communication from God. That sounds like a superstitious attempt to get some sort of special message from God, almost like bibliomancy (opening a Bible up to a random page and applying the first verse you come to to your present situation).

Otherwise, the idea that simply sitting alone in a room while writing is somehow "unbiblical" is just bizarre.

That is probably the case, even if Hunt's words didn't come out to sound that way. If we write down everything we hear, we are likely to get a mix of voices -- including our own. That's not a bad thing -- it's just what happens all day long when we're not listening. It's our job to sort it out.

And it's our job to carry on our own relationship with God.

It is religiosity to put additional restrictions on serving God. People did not have access to home Bibles in Jesus' day, so of course it was not spoken of in scriptures. People were told to meditate on His Words, to speak verses to each other and sing psalms of praise together, reinforcing and reminding each other of God's word.

Qumran Scrolls Library --estimated 408 BC to 318 AD
Matthew 22:40, Acts 28:23 Speaks of the Law and the Prophets
Colossians 4:16 Mentions writings passed around
Moveable Type- 1040's AD China, 1430's Europe
Printing Press --1450's Gutenberg Press
​

Canonization of NT

Edict of Diocletian (A.D. 303) declaration to destroy all Christian books
The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) NT incorporation
Bishop Athanasius mentions 27 books (A.D. 367)
The Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) 27 NT books.
The Council of Hippo (419 A.D.)

​

2011 Adult Literacy rates (UNESCO)

62.8% -- India
54.9% -- Pakista
39% -- Ethiopia
33.4% -- Mali
28.7% -- Burkina Faso
25.3% -- Guinea
​

We are fortunate if we can sit every morning with the Bible, and listen to God.

Teaching fussy restrictions, saying good is evil, and bantering over petty practices? What does that sound like? Dill and cumin tithes? It is no one's business.

Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened unto you.
Knock three times, then ring the doorbell, but don't knock four times or you will be cast out by the dogs.

Another weird thing....of the group's "elders." (Who were given a lot of spiritual authority )- One was killed and body burned (my friend), another had a stroke, another almost died, another did die...in the presence of the leader. (medical help not called- the man died needlessly and in pain)....

I really need to write a book about this dangerous place. I am so thankful God had mercy to open my eyes, get me out, protect my family and kids from serious harm.

Sorry to hear about your friends. What a shock that must have been.
I wonder if your book is on pause while more information comes in and gels. Get on the internet and see if others have posted stories -- then conduct anonymous interviews.

My friend had one....her pregnancy went WAY WAY past due....past 18 months....baby of course born dead at that point.

Death and destruction.
US doctors would never let that happen. They induce labor two weeks after the due date. If the friend was not hiding an embarrassment by giving a false due date, then it sounds like they refused to see a doctor during their pregnancy.

From the sounds of other things that went on in the church, the minister might have been more involved in the pregnancy and medical care than anyone let on.


Here are some scriptures to reflect on in light of the OP question:

1 Samuel 19:20-23

Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

..He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

1 Kings 22:10 (See also 2 Chronicles 18:9)

Now the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting each on his throne, arrayed in their robes, at the threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets were prophesying before them.
​

-in contrast-

Jeremiah 23:16
Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD.
​

We need to know for ourselves whether what we are hearing is from God or not. A speaker can say anything, any mix of goodness and corruption. We need to sort it out responsibly for ourselves.

Scripturally, people heard from God in dreams, visions, a burning bush, a donkey, wrigint on the wall, from apparitions and angelic visitations, from each other... we cannot tell other people that God will not speak to them a certain way.

Seek the Lord while He may be found.
Isaiah 55:6
​

 

[Faulty]

...

You still aren't answering my question. You want proof? Fine.

Here is an excerpt on the origin of the book 'A Course in Miracles'. This is journeling, not automatic writing, meeting with a "voice" each day and willfully writing whatever is heard:

"At this time, Helen was already hearing an inner Voice (Helen insisted on the use of a capital V with reference to this Voice), which explained visions she had received. Then, one day in October 1965, she heard the Voice say: "This is a course in miracles; please take notes."

She promptly called Bill to tell him what had happened. Helen feared she was going mad, but Bill encouraged her to write down what the Voice said. Bill also suggested that they should look at the material together, before starting work the next morning. If it proved to be nonsense, Helen could tear up her notes and they would never mention them again.

It was immediately clear that the words which Helen had heard were not nonsense, although they filled her with fear. Bill and Helen quickly developed a routine, which they followed each morning before their regular work started. Helen reluctantly read out to Bill what she had written down, Bill typed it out and then he read back to Helen for any corrections. The whole process took seven years to complete.

Helen regularly resisted the time it took to write down the words which she heard. It was not an automatic process, and required her full co-operation. She could stop the writing to speak to her husband or answer the phone. When she sat down again with her notebook and pen, the Voice would continue where it had been interrupted, even in mid-sentence.

Helen never doubted the source of what she was hearing, or its wisdom and authority. Yet she frequently argued with the Voice, and sometimes even tried to change the words which she heard, only to be gently corrected later on."
​

Source: What is the origin of A Course in Miracles? - About A Course in Miracles

Now, again, since the demons use this method of communicating, and you say it's ok to hear "god" in the same way and write what you hear, the same way those who follow demons can do, do you also say other occultic practices of demon contact can be used to hear from God as well?

 

[parsley]

Humans are created with the capacity to hear those voices within the mind. We need to recognize that there will be multiple sources for these voices, and be responsible for screening some out, and discerning.

To completely shut out any input would also lead to shutting out our own thoughts. A person could develop as strange a compulsion by fearing the voices, as by listening to them. It is not inherently evil -- it is just a part of the supernatural and natural world that we have to deal with.

Turning to scriptures, how would we imagine the prophets heard from God? And how did Daniel or Joseph know dream interpretations? The input likely came from these voices in the mind.

 

[psalm232]

Question answered.

Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice and that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. I guess it's about a trust relationship with the Father and learning to recognize HIS voice- through familiarity, discernment, the Word.

Automatic writing is clearly occultic and as such is dangerous for a believer- clearly demonic, however having QT - fellowship with the Lord is a good and needful thing. Writing down what the Lord is showing you- teaching - leading...NOT occultic.


Thanks for the responses. I'm at peace.

 

[psalm232]

Faulty-
I believe the issue with A Course in Miracles is not the action writing but the SOURCE. New Age Occultic and Anti-Christ. This stuff is sweeping across the planet right now....truly doctrines of demons. I agree with you that it is a form of channeling....and many other books have come down the pike in the same vein such as "Afternoons with Morrie" and others.

 

[Faulty]

Faulty-
I believe the issue with A Course in Miracles is not the action writing but the SOURCE. New Age Occultic and Anti-Christ. This stuff is sweeping across the planet right now....truly doctrines of demons. I agree with you that it is a form of channeling....and many other books have come down the pike in the same vein such as "Afternoons with Morrie" and others.

And that goes right back to your OP and the warning by Dave Hunt. It is a proven channel for demons to communicate. There is absolutely no assurance from scriptures that God will meet them there at all, and no assurance that something else won't meet them their either.

To think otherwise is wishful thinking based on one's desire to want to do so, and nothing more.

If one wants to claim that God will meet them there the same way the demons communicate, then they have to also approve of the other forms of demonic communications as well, as viable "God" communication technique options. Otherwise, it's just a drawing of the line in a place they imagine God will go to but go no further, again based on wishful thinking only.