The Spirit in the Old Testament

[Paleouss]

The Spirit In the Old Testament

I would like to start a discussion on the presence of the Spirit in the OT. To be clear, I am not referring to the “Spirit of Christ” (Rom 8:9, 1Pet 1:11) that was sent by Jesus Christ upon his resurrection (John 14:16, 26, 15:26), that is the “helper” (ESV), the “comforter” (KJV), the “advocate” (NIV).

I am referring to the Spirit 'among' and 'within' the Jewish people in the OT. The Spirit both “among” and “within” the Jewish people in general and in those that started with “faith” in the OT is the subject. As it is written: “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain (Heb 11:4, Gen 4:4); By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death (Heb 11:5, Gen 5:24) ; By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household (Heb 11:7); By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance (Heb 11:8); By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin (Heb 11:24-25).

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘among’ the Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the leaders of the Jewish people?

This next part is the main focus.

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the general population of Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ those general population Jewish people that started with “faith”?


Thank you

 

[RandyPNW]

The Spirit In the Old Testament

I would like to start a discussion on the presence of the Spirit in the OT. To be clear, I am not referring to the “Spirit of Christ” (Rom 8:9, 1Pet 1:11) that was sent by Jesus Christ upon his resurrection (John 14:16, 26, 15:26), that is the “helper” (ESV), the “comforter” (KJV), the “advocate” (NIV).

Right from the start I must say I could have a problem with this. For me, the "Spirit of Christ" is not a reference to Christ's human spirit, but rather, to the Holy Spirit, which after the Cross was given to the Church.

But I understand that you are dealing strictly with the Holy Spirit *before* He is given to the Church via the work of Christ? So we'll deal with that, hopefully.

I am referring to the Spirit 'among' and 'within' the Jewish people in the OT....

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘among’ the Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the leaders of the Jewish people?

Yes, I've had to deal with this question before because I was taught, when in Bible school, and later, in Bible Studies, that the Spirit could never have been "in" the OT saints, because that only happens after Christ's work had been accomplished. I might take issue with that, though, and have taken issue with it, though I do agree that the presence of God within the saints after the Cross establishes a final and a lasting work, whereas the dwelling of the Spirit in the OT could never be viewed a final or lasting until *after* the Cross.

My view is that the Spirit resided on a temporary basis within the OT saints precisely because final atonement had not yet been accomplished. But OT saints could hardly demonstrate Divine virtue if God was not actually in them, as His word was also in their mind and in their heart. We are told in Deuteronomy 30 that it is the word that was with Israel that enabled them to obey it.

Deut 30.14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the general population of Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ those general population Jewish people that started with “faith”?

God had a contract not just with individuals but with the society as a whole. As long as the *nation* kept faith, regardless of malcontents and rebels, God would be with the *nation.* By that I mean that God's presence was nearby and in the society, enabling them to function as a society of God. And He was there to bless them for obeying Him.

 

[Paleouss]

Randy, Thank you very much for your insights into the Spirit within and amoung in the OT. I hope you are doing well.

Right from the start I must say I could have a problem with this. For me, the "Spirit of Christ" is not a reference to Christ's human spirit, but rather, to the Holy Spirit, which after the Cross was given to the Church.

Yes. I agree. My apologies for the confusing wording I used.

But I understand that you are dealing strictly with the Holy Spirit *before* He is given to the Church via the work of Christ? So we'll deal with that, hopefully.

Yes.

Yes, I've had to deal with this question before because I was taught, when in Bible school, and later, in Bible Studies, that the Spirit could never have been "in" the OT saints, because that only happens after Christ's work had been accomplished.

I as well. You have presented an example of what I am trying to flush out.

I might take issue with that, though, and have taken issue with it, though I do agree that the presence of God within the saints after the Cross establishes a final and a lasting work, whereas the dwelling of the Spirit in the OT could never be viewed a final or lasting until *after* the Cross.

Again, right on track with what I'm trying to dive into.

Do you have any other (I know you presented Deu 30:14) reasoning based on scripture that would speak to this taking issue and pointing toward the asserted fact that...

1. There was a dwelling of the Holy Spirit within the OT saints (not just the main characters).
2. That dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT could never be viewed as final or lasting.

My view is that the Spirit resided on a temporary basis within the OT saints precisely because final atonement had not yet been accomplished.

This is my current view as well. You go on to write...

But OT saints could hardly demonstrate Divine virtue if God was not actually in them

This is a good point, I believe. Your Deu 30:14 is a good one.

If those that worship God "must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24) and God was pleased with some OT individuals (Heb 11:8), then it would seem to follow that the Spirit was within those starting with "faith" (Heb 11:6); thus worshiping "in spirit".

God had a contract not just with individuals but with the society as a whole. As long as the *nation* kept faith, regardless of malcontents and rebels, God would be with the *nation.* By that I mean that God's presence was nearby and in the society, enabling them to function as a society of God. And He was there to bless them for obeying Him.

So this brings up a question, or at least a distiction between two things. God had a contract (covenant) with the Jewish nation. So God was present...

1. In the community or among the people (as a whole)
2. In the person (individually)

Just as there were to be sacrifices for the Jewish people in general, there were sacrifices for individual sins. So it seems we can make a distiction here and apply where exactly the Spirit resided in each case, 1 and 2.

In regard to (1), the community. God was present in...

1a. The given Law. 1aii. Within the Holy of Holies (Ark of Covenant). 1aiii. Message of Prophets. 1aiv. ???

1b. What were the rewards of God's presence from being amoung the people, that is, in their midst or with them? You wrote one was....

As long as the *nation* kept faith, regardless of malcontents and rebels, God would be with the *nation.*

When we say that the Holy Spirit is present within the community, does this imply that the Holy Spirit works through all the Jewish people (individually) without regard to faith (meaning starting with faith)?

In regard to (2), the person individually. God is present...

2a. within the individual through the Holy Spirit in the OT.

Do we have verses for this? Biblical reasoning from verses? What were the fruits of God's prescence from being within the individual in the OT? Do we have verses for this?

2b fruits????


As a side note, regarding the general presence of the Holy Spirit in the OT. The Bible tells us that the Spirit is “active” (Heb 4:12) in this world and “upholds all things” (Heb 1:3) and not only “searches hearts” (Rom 8:27) but “searches everything” (1Cor 2:10), even the depths of God. Thus, the Spirit is active at every moment in time (Psa 139:7), searches every man’s thoughts “piercing to the division of soul and of spirit” (Heb 4:12) to discern intentions of the heart. There is “no creature is hidden from his sight” (Heb 4:23).

Based on what I just presented as general presence, it seems that there should be no question that the Holy Spirit was working during OT times. We have further biblical evidence that God worked in the prophets and key characters of faith that led the Jewish people. What what about the common Jewish person?


Peace with with you my brother

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, Thank you very much for your insights into the Spirit within and amoung in the OT. I hope you are doing well.

I'm doing well--my computer--not so much! I think an upgrade has mixed things up a bit, and slowed things down terribly. But I'll try to get through it.

Do you have any other (I know you presented Deu 30:14) reasoning based on scripture that would speak to this taking issue and pointing toward the asserted fact that...
1. There was a dwelling of the Holy Spirit within the OT saints (not just the main characters).
2. That dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT could never be viewed as final or lasting.

There are Scriptures that God dwelt with the people of Israel by virtue of His dwelling "within" the Temple structure. This indicated that God was with the people, generally, to bless them and to prosper them, to defend them and to reward them. What they were commissioned to do, in displaying themselves as the People of God, would be enhanced by God providing His own righteousness in them as they submitted to His word.

This "righteousness" that Israel displayed was not yet Christian Justification, but it was based on the same principle of "faith" that has always enabled Man to obey God's word. Ultimately, after Christ came and did his work, righteousness came packaged with forgiveness, allowing for Justification.

OT righteousness is therefore what I call "temporary righteousness" because it is a good that is always ultimately delegitimized by the lack of access to Christ's Justification. But after Christ did his work to justify us, our righteousness by faith becomes a lasting, or eternal, righteousness. This information can be understood from the book of Hebrews.

Your Deu 30:14 is a good one.

I can't emphasize it enough. Faith is a universal by which Man responds to God's mandates and words of command. When we respond in faith to what God tells us we are automatically enabled to perform the necessary tasks. God would not ask us to do something that we absolutely cannot do!

Faith then is also the basis of Justification through Christ. When Christ's word comes to us offering us a combination of righteousness and forgiveness, acceptance of that word brings us Justification for Eternal Life. No different from OT faith except that faith is now directed towards a word from God that now includes Christ's atonement for sin.

God's word always includes the virtue necessary to obtain what is being asked of us, whether righteousness in the OT or Justification in the NT. Salvation comes by faith just as obedience for Israel came by faith in the OT under the Law.

So God was present...

1. In the community or among the people (as a whole)
2. In the person (individually)

Just as there were to be sacrifices for the Jewish people in general, there were sacrifices for individual sins. So it seems we can make a distiction here and apply where exactly the Spirit resided in each case, 1 and 2.

Great point! Yes, the sacrificial system under the Law did differentiate between sacrifices made for the entire community and for the individual!

In the same way I would say that the faith and obedience of the individual could bring upon that individual or his family certain blessings. And the entire nation could be blessed if the vast majority in the nation was in general compliance with the big mandates for the nation.

A spiritually divided nation could not bring blessings upon the whole nation. An idolatrous section of the nation could not bring blessings upon itself, though the nation, despite that bad section, might still be able to be blessed.

We see that in the history of the Kings of Israel. There was a mixture of blessings and curses as the nation divided and struggled to unite around the Law of God. There was sometimes partial compliance with God's Law, and blessings persisted despite the more isolated curses.

One can see and take note that the Northern Kingdom of Israel, more idolatrous than Judah initially, succumbed to God's curse 1st and was destroyed by Assyria. Later, when the Southern Kingdom of Judah also turned to gross idolatry, they fell to Babylon. Not even a righteous prophet like Jeremiah could prevent this!

In regard to (2), the person individually. God is present...

2a. within the individual through the Holy Spirit in the OT.

Do we have verses for this? Biblical reasoning from verses? What were the fruits of God's prescence from being within the individual in the OT? Do we have verses for this?

The entire biblical record shows God's blessings for individual Hebrews and for the entire nation of Israel when there was a measure of obedience to God's mandates. As I said, God's spiritual presence in the individual and among the nation are often noted in 1) God's word to the person, 2) God's showing favor to the person, 3) God's giving of gifts/enablement to the person.

Quite frankly, if you read the Psalms you will know the close connection King David had with God. Jesus said that close relationship existed between God and Abraham--a friendship. Enoch certainly had it. Elijah had it. The Prophets had it.

The very definition of "sainthood" implies that God is in and with people who exhibit God's holiness. The whole question of residence in people by God comes from NT arguments concerning the degree of His dwelling with people. And I explain that as the difference between a "temporary dwelling" and a "final dwelling."

This is based on the theology of Salvation. If a person receives Christ, God's dwelling in him is permanent. Of course that depends on whether faith in God's word of Salvation is consummated in a full and real commitment to Christ or not.

Based on what I just presented as general presence, it seems that there should be no question that the Holy Spirit was working during OT times. We have further biblical evidence that God worked in the prophets and key characters of faith that led the Jewish people. What what about the common Jewish person?

Not sure what you mean here, but yes--clearly the Spirit and faith have always been and always will be. They will always be with the saints of God who exhibit genuine faith. That faith has now been consummated in Christ's Salvation. That word has been given to us, and we can now receive it.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The Spirit In the Old Testament

I would like to start a discussion on the presence of the Spirit in the OT. To be clear, I am not referring to the “Spirit of Christ” (Rom 8:9, 1Pet 1:11) that was sent by Jesus Christ upon his resurrection (John 14:16, 26, 15:26), that is the “helper” (ESV), the “comforter” (KJV), the “advocate” (NIV).

I am referring to the Spirit 'among' and 'within' the Jewish people in the OT. The Spirit both “among” and “within” the Jewish people in general and in those that started with “faith” in the OT is the subject. As it is written: “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain (Heb 11:4, Gen 4:4); By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death (Heb 11:5, Gen 5:24) ; By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household (Heb 11:7); By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance (Heb 11:8); By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin (Heb 11:24-25).

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘among’ the Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the leaders of the Jewish people?

This next part is the main focus.

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the general population of Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ those general population Jewish people that started with “faith”?


Thank you

Anyone who spoke of Messiah in the OT
spoke by the Spirit of Messiah.
1 Peter 1:
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully,
who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ
who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand
the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us
they were ministering the things which now have been reported
to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by
the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

 

[Paleouss]

SPIRIT IN


(Gen 41:38 ESV)
And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?"


(Num 27:18 ESV)
So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.

(Eze 2:2 ESV)
And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

(Eze 3:24 ESV)
But the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and he spoke with me and said to me, "Go, shut yourself within your house.

(Eze 11:19 ESV)
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

 

[Paleouss]

Spirit In or Amoung the general population in OT.

(Neh 9:16-20 ESV)
20 You gave your good Spirit to instruct them and did not withhold your manna from their mouth and gave them water for their thirst.

(Isa 63:7-14 ESV)
11 Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

-- here poured out appears to mean more than physical blessings --
(Joe 2:28-29 ESV)
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.

 

[Jonaitis]

The Spirit In the Old Testament

I would like to start a discussion on the presence of the Spirit in the OT. To be clear, I am not referring to the “Spirit of Christ” (Rom 8:9, 1Pet 1:11) that was sent by Jesus Christ upon his resurrection (John 14:16, 26, 15:26), that is the “helper” (ESV), the “comforter” (KJV), the “advocate” (NIV).

I am referring to the Spirit 'among' and 'within' the Jewish people in the OT. The Spirit both “among” and “within” the Jewish people in general and in those that started with “faith” in the OT is the subject. As it is written: “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain (Heb 11:4, Gen 4:4); By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death (Heb 11:5, Gen 5:24) ; By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household (Heb 11:7); By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance (Heb 11:8); By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin (Heb 11:24-25).

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘among’ the Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the leaders of the Jewish people?

This next part is the main focus.

Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ the general population of Jewish people?
Was the activity of the Spirit ‘within’ those general population Jewish people that started with “faith”?


Thank you

In the context of the Old Testament, the spirit of God often referred to the anointing power that rested upon particular people, usually leaders, of the Jewish community (prophets, judges, kings, et al). They were blessed their words and actions in accordance to God's will.

 

[HopeSings]

The only spirit I know is the same one who inspires Ezekiel 34, Isaiah 58 and all scripture. These two chapters from two different prophets teach the same thing. It's what Jesus and the apostles teach us. It basically means to stop fighting and to instead help each other. It's to love each other.