The 2 witnesses in Revelation

[ananda]

amen.... It is interesting that you should mention that... I had a conversation with the Lord last night about this very thing... and He asked me... which is better to have the light at your feet or further up the path? I couldn't answer because I saw the benefit of both.. so my light needs to be balanced between watching where my feet tread and watching ahead for what is there.... So I will try to be a little more balanced and not heavy into feet watching or the other end of the path I am taking.

Thank you for sharing that inspirational thought!

 

[yedida]

amen.... It is interesting that you should mention that... I had a conversation with the Lord last night about this very thing... and He asked me... which is better to have the light at your feet or further up the path? I couldn't answer because I saw the benefit of both.. so my light needs to be balanced between watching where my feet tread and watching ahead for what is there.... So I will try to be a little more balanced and not heavy into feet watching or the other end of the path I am taking.

Yep. Balance is always the key. Too far in either direction and the menorah becomes unbalanced and will threaten to topple over!

 

[Balshan]

Yep. Balance is always the key. Too far in either direction and the menorah becomes unbalanced and will threaten to topple over!

It is interesting that we have been told to look for the signs, so there is some importance in looking ahead. The debates we have on who and what the signs mean we won't get tunnel vision and miss them, we will be open to what they might be. However, to focus on the now is more important are we doing what Ha Shem wants us to do right now.

I think the important thing in revelation for now, is the warning to the seven fellowships. It was a warning to the fellowships at the time and more importantly for now. If churches and fellowships now would study the warnings and make changes, maybe just maybe, the Good News would spread and people would become more Yeshua like.

 

[yedida]

It is interesting that we have been told to look for the signs, so there is some importance in looking ahead. The debates we have on who and what the signs mean we won't get tunnel vision and miss them, we will be open to what they might be. However, to focus on the now is more important are we doing what Ha Shem wants us to do right now.

I think the important thing in revelation for now, is the warning to the seven fellowships. It was a warning to the fellowships at the time and more importantly for now. If churches and fellowships now would study the warnings and make changes, maybe just maybe, the Good News would spread and people would become more Yeshua like.

You can say that again!!!

 

[Ryan L]

You can say that again!!!

...and again

 

[visionary]

So back to topic, does anyone have any scriptural reasons why it couldn't be Michael and Gabriel?

Don't know if this is for or against or just a coincidence... but.. It is an Orthodox Jewish custom of wearing white clothing on Yom Kippur which is meant to emulate the ministering angels.

 

[visionary]

The ministering angels of the God of Israel wear white clothing. During the events of the resurrection of Yeshua ...

Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

 

[visionary]

Here is the thing though..... the white garments also represent or are symbolic of forgiveness of our sins.

Leviticus 13:17 And the priest shall see him: and, behold, if the plague be turned into white; then the priest shall pronounce him clean that has the plague: he is clean.

Ecclesiastes 9:8 Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And the two witnesses were wearing sack cloth .... coarse, rough cloth, maybe made of goats' hair, worn as a symbol of mourning or penitence, often with ashes sprinkled on the head... which might also fit better with the time frame... as Daniel also saw the seriousness of the times and

Dan 9:3 I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: Therefore, O God, cause Thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate.

 

[visionary]

That reminds me.. Elijah wore a mantle of sheepskin. Wasn't it used as a token of the prophetic office which he passed to Elisha.

2 Kings 2:8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground. 9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?” “Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied. 10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.” 11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two. 13 Elisha then picked up Elijah’s cloak that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

The ancient prophets all wore rough garments to show themselves signing and crying for the abominations and the lengths they were willing to go to show that they were not going to take the creature comforts of this world.

Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented.

Come to think of it.. there is also the warning that Yeshua gave...

Matthew 7:15 They shall come to you in sheep's clothing.

 

[Balshan]

That reminds me.. Elijah wore a mantle of sheepskin. Wasn't it used as a token of the prophetic office which he passed to Elisha. The ancient prophets all wore rough garments to show themselves signing and crying for the abominations and the lengths they were willing to go to show that they were not going to take the creature comforts of this world. Come to think of it.. there is also the warning that Yeshua gave...

So the clothes of the witnesses confirm that the message will a call to repentance. Does this help to work out who the witnesses will be? All the prophets of Old have been Jewish, so does this limit the witnesses to members of the Jewish nation? Therefore, Billy Graham is a non starter due to the fact that he is not Jewish and really the angels are more instruments of God's wrath. I think the probability of the witnesses being angels is remote. Therefore, if the witnesses are not someone from the ancient past, they would probably be someone from the Messianic community who is righteous.

 

[visionary]

So the clothes of the witnesses confirm that the message will a call to repentance. Does this help to work out who the witnesses will be? All the prophets of Old have been Jewish, so does this limit the witnesses to members of the Jewish nation? Therefore, Billy Graham is a non starter due to the fact that he is not Jewish and really the angels are more instruments of God's wrath. I think the probability of the witnesses being angels is remote. Therefore, if the witnesses are not someone from the ancient past, they would probably be someone from the Messianic community who is righteous.

They don't have to be from the Messianic Community... many of us came with the message God had given us and were delighted to find others who came to believe the same thing. So could the messengers, [be virgins = not associated with religious organizations of any kind] but got it straight from the Word of God and via the Holy Spirit teaching.

 

[Ryan L]

According to the NASB, angels are mentioned about 280 times throughout the scriptures. 1/4 or about 70 times angels are mentioned in Revelation alone. To say angels have a bit part in the coming times is an understatement. I imagine they"ll be working well into overtime.

These witnesses will possess great powers in Revelation 11:5-6. Plagues, famines, fire coming out of their mouths. Could God possibly give a carnal, sinful man these powers without them being abused no matter how righteous they are? Think of Solomon and what he did. That was just wisdom he abused, iimagine fire coming out of our mouth. Could a human possibly restrain themselves with these powers and not let it get to their head? Just throwing that out there. Humans, from what I know, we're never afforded these powers. Maybe I just can't think of any examples at the moment.

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but as he was about to destroy it, the Lord saw and was sorry over the calamity, and said to the destroying angel, “It is enough; now relax your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

2 Kings 19:35 Then it happened that night that the angel of the Lord went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead.

It says the witnesses will be able to do these things as they please. I just cannot see God giving man authority to do this stuff. It just doesn't make sense to me. My opinion anyways.

 

[Balshan]

They don't have to be from the Messianic Community... many of us came with the message God had given us and were delighted to find others who came to believe the same thing. So could the messengers, [be virgins = not associated with religious organizations of any kind] but got it straight from the Word of God and via the Holy Spirit teaching.

Maybe another Saul.

 

[visionary]

Maybe another Saul.

Who is to say where, who, when or how God will call His Two Witnesses forth.

 

[Balshan]

They don't have to be from the Messianic Community... many of us came with the message God had given us and were delighted to find others who came to believe the same thing. So could the messengers, [be virgins = not associated with religious organizations of any kind] but got it straight from the Word of God and via the Holy Spirit teaching.

Virgins hmmm IMHO it sounds more like a pagan practice.

 

[visionary]

Virgins hmmm IMHO it sounds more like a pagan practice.

Like God choosing the "virgin" Mary was a pagan practice.. doesn't make it any the less true and of God's choosing.

 

[Balshan]

Like God choosing the "virgin" Mary was a pagan practice.. doesn't make it any the less true and of God's choosing.

Miriam's role was different to that of the witnesses. Also, God used people like Rahab in his plans, Mary who had been demon possessed etc. Being a virgin is not the requirement for roles.

 

[visionary]

Miriam's role was different to that of the witnesses. Also, God used people like Rahab in his plans, Mary who had been demon possessed etc. Being a virgin is not the requirement for roles.

Just one of the requirements to fulfill prophecy.

 

[Balshan]

Just one of the requirements to fulfill prophecy.

No it is was just a requirement for one particular prophecy (which leads to others being fulfilled), not all prophets. Therefore, not necessary a requirement for the two witnesses.

 

[visionary]

No it is was just a requirement for one particular prophecy (which leads to others being fulfilled), not all prophets. Therefore, not necessary a requirement for the two witnesses.

Never said that it was... You ask if the two witnesses have to be from MJ.. and I stated that the only requirement they have is obedience to the calling. Then came the rabbit trail about without quile... which I said was equal to "virgin" as in not associated with a church.