Starlight Problem

[FaithT]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

 

[d taylor]

There’s a old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

The stars along with the sun and moon are place in the raqia (expanse, dome) above the earth. That is what The Bible says.

I wonder where from The Bible did people get the idea that stars (also the sun and moon) are millions to trillions of miles away from earth.

 

[FaithT]

The stars along with the sun and moon are place in the raqia (expanse, dome) above the earth. That is what The Bible says.

I wonder where from The Bible did people get the idea that stars (also the sun and moon) are millions to trillions of miles away from earth.

I wonder why people who believe in Genesis literally don’t also believe in that dome.

 

[d taylor]

I wonder why people who believe in Genesis literally don’t also believe in that dome.

Some do, i do. But It is true not many, science has done its job well deceiving humanity.

Look into Everett Fox's work of the first 5 books.
or the Complete Jewish Bible below.

God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the water; let it divide the water from the water.” God made the dome and divided the water under the dome from the water above the dome; that is how it was, and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.

 

[Job 33:6]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

You know, it's more than just a starlight problem.

The tadpole Galaxy has a tail that is roughly 280,000 light years long. The tail stretching out behind the galaxy as it moves through space. So that even physical matter in the form of a galaxy would have to move dozens of times faster than speed of light if it were only 6000 years old.

If we assumed that matter moved in both directions at the speed of light, 280,000/2= 140,000. 140,000/6,000= 23.3 x the speed of light in the most ideal scenario.

 

[FaithT]

Some do, i do. But It is true not many, science has done its job well deceiving humanity.

Look into Everett Fox's work of the first 5 books.
or the Complete Jewish Bible below.

God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the water; let it divide the water from the water.” God made the dome and divided the water under the dome from the water above the dome; that is how it was, and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.

No thanks.

 

[FaithT]

The stars along with the sun and moon are place in the raqia (expanse, dome) above the earth. That is what The Bible says.

I wonder where from The Bible did people get the idea that stars (also the sun and moon) are millions to trillions of miles away from earth.

We learned it in school.

 

[FaithT]

You know, it's more than just a starlight problem.

The tadpole Galaxy has a tail that is roughly 280,000 light years long. The tail stretching out behind the galaxy as it moves through space. So that even physical matter in the form of a galaxy would have to move dozens of times faster than speed of light if it were only 6000 years old.

If we assumed that matter moved in both directions at the speed of light, 280,000/2= 140,000. 140,000/6,000= 23.3 x the speed of light in the most ideal scenario.

View attachment 319190

That’s over my head.

 

[Job 33:6]

That’s over my head.

Well think about this. If you have a galaxy with a tail behind it, the tail, similar to a tail of a comet, stretching out behind it as it moves through space.

And that tail is 280,000 light years long, that means that it would take 280,000 years for light to travel from one end of the tail to the other. Which means that the galaxy and it's physical matter that makes it up, has travelled that far.

And so if the galaxy and physical matter has travelled 280,000 light years in distance, but the universe is only 6,000 years old, how fast would the galaxy have needed to move? Well, 280,000 divided by 6,000 is a few dozen times the speed of light.

So if the universe were 6,000 years old, not only is there a starlight problem, ie how could light travel millions of years through space in such a short time? But there is also a problem of "the speed of matter" problem where entire galaxies have travelled hundreds of thousands of light years, despite the universe only being 6,000 years old.

Imagine if you jogged 280,000 light years in distance and ask yourself, if you jogged at the speed of light, how long would it take you? Well, 280,000 years. So how could physical matter of a galaxy stretch that distance behind a galaxy in motion, in only 6,000?

 

[d taylor]

No thanks.

I have learned it is quite scary for many people to have faith in God, in areas of creation. Especially when God is pitted against the dreaded science. They (science) have boldly taught their deceptions.

 

[FaithT]

I have learned it is quite scary for many people to have faith in God in areas of creation. Especially when God is pitted against the dreaded science. They (science) have boldly taught their deceptions.

Okaaaaaay…..

 

[eleos1954]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

A Light-year is a unit of measurement of distance, equal to 9.4607×10^m.

A Year is a unit of measurement of time, equal to the orbital period for the Earth to travel around the sun, i.e. 365.25 days. Has this always been the case with planet earth? Has the orbital period etc always been? If not, when did that start ... how is time measured before that? UNKNOWN

What was Einstein's theory of time?

In the Special Theory of Relativity, Einstein determined that time is relative—in other words, the rate at which time passes depends on your frame of reference. Should planet earth be that frame of reference for the universe?

Time is an illusion (so said Einstein - boggled his mind as well) ... should time as we measure it apply to the universe? No. Did earth exist before the universe? Not likely. Is the age of the universe dependent on earth? No

To accurately measure time .... "the clock" must be set at zero. Does planet earth represent the beginning of time for the universe (zero)? Should we use it as the frame of reference for the universe. When did zero for the earth begin? Unknown

That being said .... there are many many many scientists that discuss this and many different ideas about it and they are very "weedy" (very involved) reads.

God set in place time for mankind during His creation .... anything outside of that represents eternity (no beginning- no end - timeless) ... so ... biblically time is constrained to the earth, not the cosmos ... that being the case Young Earth? ... yes certainly so

eternity defined is - a state to which time has no application; timelessness.

God is eternal .... no beginning ... no end ... outside of time - timelessness ... boggles the mind ;o) Being finite beings constrained to time beyond our comprehension really.

 

[David's Harp]

Hi, newbie here, but interesting discussion.

Why does man try to look deeper and deeper into space? And are any of them doing so Bible believing?

 

[FaithT]

Hi, newbie here, but interesting discussion.

Why does man try to look deeper and deeper into space? And are any of them doing so Bible believing?

1) I don’t know but I’ve wondered the same thing, and
2) I don’t know

 

[Job 33:6]

.
so ... biblically time is constrained to the earth, not the cosmos ... that being the case Young Earth? ... yes certainly so

eternity defined is - a state to which time has no application; timelessness.

So when God created the heavens and the earth, in the beginning, are you suggesting that God created the heavens eternal but the earth young? Or are you saying that the heavens are constrained to our atmosphere despite God placing the stars in the heavens?
Genesis 1:8
Genesis 1:14.

 

[Job 33:6]

And here's another funny thing about the tadpole galaxy.

Let us imagine a universe where light instantly reaches earth from billions of light-years away, or in some really short time, less than 6000 years.

So rather than an object a billion light years away and taking light a billion light years to reach us, an object is billions of light years away yet we watch it instantaneously in real time. And light instantly travels from deep space super fast (billions of times faster than the speed of light) to earth allowing us to see really distant objects though the universe is only a few thousand years old.

Simply a thought experiment:

If we were looking into space and light did somehow speed up faster than the speed of light constant, would that mean that God created such galactic bodies in space mid-formation?

So the tadpole galaxy is being pulled by the gravity of two galaxies mid collision. So, if light is reaching earth, in "real time", and what we are seeing is live or at most a few thousand years old, did God create galaxies instantly already in the process of mid collision and being pulled apart?

Rather than two galaxies forming and then running into eachother and gradually being pulled apart, God skipped the first few steps and simply made it look as if time had passed but in actuality had not with galaxies created already in mid or post collision state, appearing as if they had already run into eachother, though they had not.

When we really unpack the distant starlight problem, we find several logical issues with YECism.

See the above video at 0:37 seconds for context. Imagine, rather than watching two galaxies run into eachother and pull one another apart, that we might turn on the video after the collision has already occurred and after these galaxies have already travelled hundreds of thousands of light-years through space, and we say "yes, God actually created these galaxies with the appearance as if they had already collided but in actuality had not".

Just like Adam being created with an apparent age but he had never actually lived more than a day when God sculpted him of clay. But with a galaxy.

That's what YECs have to do to get around the starlight problem. They have to assume that light sped up, some insane speed, and assume God created things with the appearance of age though they were simply created that way Instantaneously without any age at all.

Rather than simply just accepting that the universe is old, these are some of the logical gymnastics necessary to make YECism work. And this is the exact same logical issue they face with every other field of science. Plate tectonics sped up then slowed down the moment we decided to look at it. The speed of light sped up and slowed down the moment we decided to look at it. The rate of evolution sped up and slowed down the moment we decided to look at it etc etc.

God made things look as if they were old, though in actually they were not. Scars that tell stories included.

Imagine if Adam had a scar on his right leg, and we said "Adam, if you had been made yesterday, how did you get that scar?". This is what the distant starlight problem and many other problems do to YECism, they force these awkward questions.

 

[Job 33:6]

And here's another funny thing about the tadpole galaxy.

Let us imagine a universe where light instantly reaches earth from billions of light-years away, or in some really short time, less than 6000 years.

So rather than an object a billion light years away and taking light a billion light years to reach us, an object is billions of light years away yet we watch it instantaneously in real time. And light instantly travels from deep space super fast (billions of times faster than the speed of light) to earth allowing us to see really distant objects though the universe is only a few thousand years old.

Simply a thought experiment:
View attachment 319231

If we were looking into space and light did somehow speed up faster than the speed of light constant, would that mean that God created such galactic bodies in space mid-formation?

So the tadpole galaxy is being pulled by the gravity of two galaxies mid collision. So, if light is reaching earth, in "real time", and what we are seeing is live or at most a few thousand years old, did God create galaxies instantly already in the process of mid collision and being pulled apart?

Rather than two galaxies forming and then running into eachother and gradually being pulled apart, God skipped the first few steps and simply made it look as if time had passed but in actuality had not with galaxies created already in mid or post collision state, appearing as if they had already run into eachother, though they had not.

When we really unpack the distant starlight problem, we find several logical issues with YECism.

See the above video at 0:37 seconds for context. Imagine, rather than watching two galaxies run into eachother and pull one another apart, that we might turn on the video after the collision has already occurred and after these galaxies have already travelled hundreds of thousands of light-years through space, and we say "yes, God actually created these galaxies with the appearance as if they had already collided but in actuality had not".

Just like Adam being created with an apparent age but he had never actually lived more than a day when God sculpted him of clay. But with a galaxy.

That's what YECs have to do to get around the starlight problem. They have to assume that light sped up, some insane speed, and assume God created things with the appearance of age though they were simply created that way Instantaneously without any age at all.

Rather than simply just accepting that the universe is old, these are some of the logical gymnastics necessary to make YECism work. And this is the exact same logical issue they face with every other field of science. Plate tectonics sped up then slowed down the moment we decided to look at it. The speed of light sped up and slowed down the moment we decided to look at it. The rate of evolution sped up and slowed down the moment we decided to look at it etc etc.

God made things look as if they were old, though in actually they were not. Scars that tell stories included.

Imagine if Adam had a scar on his right leg, and we said "Adam, if you had been made yesterday, how did you get that scar?". This is what the distant starlight problem and many other problems do to YECism, they force these awkward questions.

And here's a simple way to summarize this post.

If light travelled from distant galaxies roughly instantaneously to us or at some hyperspeed allowing it to reach us within 6000 years, then objects further away should appear older or if identical age to objects closer to us. Because light would take longer to reach us from further away. Or if an equal quantity of time.

But in reality, the closer objects are to us, the older they look and the further we look back in time, the younger galactic bodies look.

For example:

This super distant galaxy, looks young, like an infant galaxy.

This galaxy above, Andromeda, looks really old, and it's very close to us.

You see, in reality, the closer an object is, the older it looks and the farther away the object is, the younger it looks.

This is because light takes lots of time to travel across space, so when we look really really deep I to space, we are looking really really far back in time, and thus objects look like baby galaxies.

But this is counter Intuitive to YECism, which suggests that light from across the entire universe somehow all reached us nearly instantaneously. If light travelled to us so quickly, then objects of such great distances should look older or of equal age as objects closer to us. Because the speed of light would be so fast, that it would out-pace stellar/galactic evolution.

To really boil it down to a single question, we could simply ask, if the universe is only 6000 years old, and if light did travel billions of light years in a mere 6000 years, then why do the furthest galaxies look so young and the closest galaxies look so old? If all of them are a mere few thousand years old?

This is starlight problem 2.0 here.

 

[eleos1954]

So when God created the heavens and the earth, in the beginning, are you suggesting that God created the heavens eternal but the earth young? Or are you saying that the heavens are constrained to our atmosphere despite God placing the stars in the heavens?
Genesis 1:8
Genesis 1:14.

God created time (for mankind) with a purpose ... not to determine when the universe came into being. What I am saying is time outside of planet earth is unknown to mankind .... there are many theories about it .... but nobody knows. It is difficult for our minds to understand no time ... again eternity is that time does not exist .... not measurable.

Genesis 1:14

And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,

Here is an interesting article about some of the different theories, but indeed the end result from the article is the beginning of time (if there was one) is UNKNOWN.

The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time

so the theory of evolution is dependent on time .... yet .... science does not know when time began .... so it is being based on unknowns.

Years are based on planet earth .... so we are using years and applying that to the universe?.... that is making planet earth the beginning of time .... according to God yes that was the beginning of time for mankind .... According to science? They don't know when time began but I do not know of one scientist (who embraces evolution) that believes planet earth was in existence before anything else. They do admit that it is unknown .... and it is.

Eternity is beyond our comprehension really .... we can understand the concepts and we do consider the abstracts of it.

An abstract idea or way of thinking is based on general ideas rather than on real things and events.

God is understood as eternal (outside of time), omnipotent, omniscient and as the creator of the universe. God is further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omnibenevolence and omnipresence.

Requires abstract thinking .... do we fully understand this? No Because we don't fully understand it ... does that mean God does not exist and that He does not have these casual powers? No We get the general idea.

It God abstract? No

God has causal powers, He is not an abstract object like a number or property or proposition.

casual powers
relating to or acting as a cause.

Supernatural or natural .... people decide what they believe.

 

[Job 33:6]

What I am saying is time outside of planet earth is unknown to mankind .... there are many theories about it .... but nobody knows.

so the theory of evolution is dependent on time .... yet .... science does not know when time began .... so it is being based on unknowns.

Years are based on planet earth .... so we are using years and applying that to the universe?.... that is making planet earth the beginning of time .... according to God yes that was the beginning of time for mankind .... According to science?

Not knowing when time began doesn't somehow handicap us in our ability to understand time in a relative sense. It's not like I don't know when my birthday is, or how long it would take me to get to the moon on a spaceship.

I don't know when time first came into existence so I therefore can't give you an estimate on how long it'll take me to get to work in the morning because my schedule is too abstract and based on too many unknowns. Good luck selling that one to the CEO.

It's not like when the Mars Rover was first launched everyone was like "whelp, we have left earth so we have no idea how long it'll take to get to Mars, guess we can all go home now!"

If you have a clear argument to make against the starlight problem, feel free to make it. But thus far this is all I've gathered from your response.

 

[eleos1954]

Not knowing when time began doesn't somehow handicap us in our ability to understand time in a relative sense. It's not like I don't know when my birthday is, or how long it would take me to get to the moon on a spaceship.

I don't know when time first came into existence so I therefore can't give you an estimate on how long it'll take me to get to work in the morning because my schedule is too abstract and based on too many unknowns. Good luck selling that one to the CEO.

It's not like when the Mars Rover was first launched everyone was like "whelp, we have left earth so we have no idea how long it'll take to get to Mars, guess we can all go home now!"

If you have a clear argument to make against the starlight problem, feel free to make it. But thus far this is all I've gathered from your response.

If earth didn't exist how would time be determined? UNKNOWN

The way we measure time on earth (years/light years) is dependent on on the planet ... is the universe in regard to time dependent on the earth? No. It is relative to us because that is where we are ... but outside of that ?????

relative
considered in relation or in proportion to something else.

That "something else" that is being used is planet earth ... and why should we apply that to the universe? That don't even make sense ... unless one is to believe planet earth was the first thing in the universe.

Differing ideas about it from physicists .... that being the case ... time in regard to the universe is indeed UNKNOWN and even questioned by them if time actually exists ... or is it just a construct of our minds,

https://www.sci.news/physics/timelessness-10738.html

Time does not really exist without our mind and way of thinking to differentiate between past , present and the future.

That is why Einstein and others says time is an illusion.

It's really is quite perplexing.