Southern Baptists and Once Saved Always Saved

[BNR32FAN]

We are going in circles. You are saying virtually the same thing I’m saying, but somehow when you say it, you are right but when I say it I am somehow wrong.

So, according to you, Paul (who DIDN’T deny Christ) can say he could deny Christ and Christ would deny him back, but Peter, who DID deny Christ is good because he repented. There is just no reasoning with this type of argument.

The point is that Paul made it absolutely clear that he could deny Christ to the point that Christ would deny Him. Peter didn’t do that but that doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have denied Christ without repentance to the point of condemnation. Look at James 5:19-20.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that if someone strays from the truth (of the gospel) his soul is in danger of death but if someone turns him BACK his soul will be saved. Peter turned back, that’s why his soul was saved but both 2 Timothy 2:12 and James 5:19-20 clearly indicate that a true believer can turn away and refuse to repent to the point of condemnation. Both 2 Timothy 2:12 and James 5:19-20 are teaching the exact same situation. James 5 can only be referring to a true born again believer otherwise turning that person BACK wouldn’t save them. So it’s not talking about a false professor because false professors have nothing to turn back to in order to save their soul from death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am done going in circles with you. You clipped a small part of a verse out of context and have built up a sketchy theology around it. I’m fine that you disagree with me.

What’s the context of that chapter? Paul is explaining to Timothy the importance of perseverance in the face of persecution just like Jesus did with His 12 disciples in Matthew 10 which is precisely why Paul is quoting Jesus from Matthew 10.

““Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭32‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Both 2 Timothy chapter 2 and Matthew 10 are the exact same context, the importance of perseverance. I’m not ignoring the context at all. Here’s a video I made explaining in detail the context of 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

 

[A New Dawn]

What’s the context of that chapter? Paul is explaining to Timothy the importance of perseverance in the face of persecution just like Jesus did with His 12 disciples in Matthew 10 which is precisely why Paul is quoting Jesus from Matthew 10.

““Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭32‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Both 2 Timothy chapter 2 and Matthew 10 are the exact same context, the importance of perseverance. I’m not ignoring the context at all. Here’s a video I made explaining in detail the context of 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

Considering I did not say what you are accusing me of, I am not watching your video. Just in case you can’t understand what I said the first time, there is a difference between not being righteous and not being able to contribute to our salvation, and not doing works at all. I advocated for the former but not the latter. We were clearly created unto good works in Christ Jesus when we received His gift of salvation, but those works do not add to our salvation. Those works demonstrate our salvation and are done in gratitude and for the glory of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Considering I did not say what you are accusing me of, I am not watching your video. Just in case you can’t understand what I said the first time, there is a difference between not being righteous and not being able to contribute to our salvation, and not doing works at all. I advocated for the former but not the latter. We were clearly created unto good works in Christ Jesus when we received His gift of salvation, but those works do not add to our salvation. Those works demonstrate our salvation and are done in gratitude and for the glory of God.

Don’t ever accuse me of being an antinomian again.

I sincerely apologize but I made no accusations at all. I never even implied such a thing. Can you please quote what statement I made that made you think that I accused you of condoning immorality? If it appears that I made such a statement I sincerely apologize, it was not my intention. Calvinists don’t typically condone immorality so it wouldn’t make any sense for me to make such an accusation.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, so they are not true believers.
- No firm roots
- Believe for a while
- Fall away in times of temptation
Exactly what I described in my post. Are you suggesting that because he doesn’t come out and say “they weren’t true believers” that they couldn’t have not been true believers when we can know them by their works.

I believe you have to use the verse as a whole to understand what he is saying, and as a whole he is obviously comparing believers to deniers (unbelievers). I further believe that if it is as you suggest, then Peter would not have continued to be part of Jesus’ inner crowd.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here. How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart.

People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Also, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

 

[Danthemailman]

And where did I ever suggest that you can't? Everyone has a nature, and everyone has a will, and everyone sins no matter what your nature is. There will always be unintentional sin in believers, but it is something that can be (and should be) repented of. Some believers unfortunately even become involved in intentional sin, but that can also be repented of. If they do not, then God disciplines them, but they do not stop being believers.

Who of us have not grieved the Holy Spirit at times? Ephesians 4:30 is an exhortation to not grieve the Holy Spirit yet we find no warning about being unsealed by the Holy Spirit. Believers are sealed for/unto the day of redemption. Just as we read in Ephesians 1:13-14 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Danthemailman]

From reading 2 Timothy 2:12 in context, I'm not getting that from it. It appears that Paul is saying just the opposite. In verses 8-13, Paul seems to be speaking about the assurety of salvation for the chosen. The P in TULIP, preservation of the saints. So it seems to support what I said. I have to ask, if someone's heart was truly turned by God to himself, that also means that your will is changed to agree with God. If your will is changed and you agree with God, why would you deny Him? You clipped only a portion of that verse to speak to without quoting the whole verse. The whole verse states

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Which is what I said in the beginning.

Can you provide the reference regarding saying Christ said some will believe and fall away so I can also put a context to that?

In regard to 2 Timothy 2:13, I see a contrast with, "if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

"By contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" points to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he abides faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, "He remains faithful," faithful to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.