Social Justice

[Echoes Peak]

...so what is it? It seems that throughout this forum, its mere definition seems to be debatable. So as Christians, what is considered Social Justice and how should we employ it?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I would say that for Christians a concern for social justice is to share Jesus' concerns as descriped in his "keynote speech" in Luke 4:16-21,

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written,"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

 

[ahab]

Actually, I think that’s an inspired answer by Treasure the Questions Luke 4:16-21 (as I have been deliberating and hesitating over this)

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

IMO the good news is the Kingdom of God at hand through Jesus. Paul says the Kingdom of God or Heaven is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rom 14:17. all based on love (agape)

IMO the release to captives recovering sight to the blind and setting at liberty those who are oppressed was initially great news for those who heard Jesus in the temple for they expected deliverance from the Roman ‘occupation’ and rule, in other words social justice, however the shock to all of them was that this was primarily a spiritual proclamation as Jesus healed Romans as well as them, and told them to pay taxes to Cesaer; He shocked the religious leaders by fulfilling the law and prophets by breaking their exclusivity and ritual; and He shocked all of them by telling them to repent of sin.

So Jesus was and still is frequently rejected primarily because He claims to be of the Kingdom of God, they didn’t mind so much Him healing anyone, but they also didn’t like His teaching on repentance and sin.

So IMO the social justice that they expected from Jesus didn’t materialise entirely the way they had hoped, which is often the same today. So I would say Social action is a better term for the section than social justice because the work of Jesus is to preach the gospel and to help those in need according to the Kingdom not of this world, so the world does not always see justice in the same way as God.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I see things rather differently, ahab. The Kingdom of God is about God's laws being implemented. The nations of Israel and Judah fell short in this area and Jesus brings in a new kingdom of God, not a theocracy, but God ruling in the hearts of men and women who put their trust in Jesus Christ.

Jesus actually brought physicaly healing to people as well as spiritual healing, showing that he cares about our physical condition and not just our spiritual condition.

Jesus taught people methods of passive resistance: if someone strikes you on the cheek as if you are their slave, turn the other cheek so they must strike you as a social equal. If a soldier demands you carry his pack for a mile, as he was allowed to do, get him into trouble by carrying it for two - protest about being treated in this oppressive manner! If someone demands your cloak when you in your destitution are unable to pay back the money you borrowed for bread, embarrass them in court by taking your under garment off as well! The law said that people's cloaks must be returned at night. it was all they had to keep them warm on cold nights and protect them from inclement weather.

The "year of the Lord's favour" may well refer to the year of Jubilee when land was to be returned to the original owners and debts were to be cancelled.

Much of Jesus' preaching, especially in Luke's gospel was against the oppression of the poor. So Jesus was reinforcing the message God had given through his prophets in the past: his people are not to oppress the poor and the powerless such as widows and orphans, but to treat them justly. Moreover the poor and oppressed didn't have to take this treatment lying down, but should protest against it in ingenious and non-violent ways.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

Are you sure you see it differently. IMO I basically see the same as what you see but I think there is much more than that.

Theocracy
Well Jesus said the Kingdom of God/Heaven is at hand and within us. The Kingdom of God/Heaven is surely the rule and reign of God not now in laws to keep but laws on our hearts and God’s actual spirit available to us in our hearts.

I think I agree with you.

Oh yes Jesus most certainly did bring physical healing and we can heal the sick too, in fact Jesus instructs us to as well, its just that I call that social action rather than social justice


I agree that I don’t think Jesus was for violence at any time but an ‘eye for eye’ didnt mean that a person could exact vengeance directly but through the courts, I believe this is also about avoiding retribution and how to resist. I would agree that violence is social injustice but I think the message of the gospel counters that. Incidentally, as to the Roman soldier Jesus this implies some sort of obedience and compliance to the brutal Roman oppression. That’s why I think buying fair trade products is a better way of dealing with trade injustice than protests, protests is rebellion and fair trading is compliance. However Jesus also said things like “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” Matthew 10:14.



As to treatment of the poor I absolutely agree with you.

So Jesus was reinforcing the message God had given through his prophets in the past: his people are not to oppress the poor and the powerless such as widows and orphans, but to treat them justly.Moreover the poor and oppressed didn't have to take this treatment lying down, but should protest against it in ingenious and non-violent ways.

But you have actually quoted from the beatitudes Luke 6, where Jesus says “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Matthew 5 its “Blessed are the poor in Spirit because yours is the Kingdom of Heaven”

This is the problem with unbalancing everything just down to helping the poor in material terms, Jesus says that and much more. For example in these passages Jesus says “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.. “ so I am not sure that is seen as social justice. Another time Jesus said to His disciples that the poor would always be with them. I don’t see that as social justice. So as to setting the captives of poverty free with a promise of the Kingdom of God, thats spiritual justice rather than social justice. Thats why I call all our efforts social action rather than social justice.

Its the same with the way that social justice cna be seen to imply that people are entitled to live the way they chose and believe what they want, which of course can be directly contrary to Jesus teachings.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I don't deny that there is a spiritual element to Jesus' teaching, but I wish to emphasise the physical and material element as some choose to ignore it.

I don't see social justice as letting people live as they wish. Social justice is working to reduce poverty and above all the injustices that encourage poverty, whether they are a lack of education, unfair wages or unjust trade laws.

Somewhere in the Bible we are called to be a voice for the voiceless. If the uneducated labourer in one of the many developing countries cannot write and is broken by hard work and poverty so that he has no energy or inclination to protest, then surely it is my Christian duty to put his case to Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, or whichever member of the government is relevant. Surely I am obeying God if I go and stand in Brighton in solidarity with such farmers in peaceful and good-natured protest at the injustice of trade laws that say his labour is worth a fraction of the labour of a farm labourer in the West; which prevent him from providing properly for his family while we have more food available than is good for us, and at his expense! That is not rebellion.

 

[ahab]

Treasure the Questions,

I am not sure we do disagree so much. As said “As to treatment of the poor I absolutely agree with you” and you said

“I don't deny that there is a spiritual element to Jesus' teaching, but I wish to emphasise the physical and material element as some choose to ignore it.”

I don’t doubt that some chose to ignore the spiritual element too.

Social justice is working to reduce poverty and above all the injustices that encourage poverty, whether they are a lack of education, unfair wages or unjust trade laws.

I call that social action. I am not sure that’s necessarily the primary message in Luke 6 and Matthew 5. I would say that Jesus instruction to His disciples in Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Or when Jesus said to His disciples Mark 14:7 “The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want…” and again to the disciples Luke 6:20 “Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.” I think there are many who would see this as scant comfort for someone who is materially poor and not social justice at all.
I think therefore the responsibility is on us, for us to respond by helping the poor rather than trying to persuade Governments and big business with demonstrations which they often just see as rebellion.

Of course a media campaign is another matter and a very good way of getting the message across but IMO better still for enough people to buy fair trade products to show we do what we say.



I still don’t quite know what you see differently from what I wrote in my post #3.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I don’t doubt that some chose to ignore the spiritual element too..

That's why I wanted to make clear that I don't ignore it.

I think therefore the responsibility is on us, for us to respond by helping the poor rather than trying to persuade Governments and big business with demonstrations which they often just see as rebellion.

Of course a media campaign is another matter and a very good way of getting the message across but IMO better still for enough people to buy fair trade products to show we do what we say.

In our country our government does not see it as rebellion, in fact some members of the government are positively encouraged by the concrete evidence that so many people agree with what they wish to propose. As we are so fortunate I think we should do what we can to make use of our privileged position.

The major charities, many of whom are Christian charities (as you know, but the Americans here might not), behind Fair Trade see improved trade laws as the way forward. I'll try and put some more info up at some stage, but probably should wait till next week when I've less to do.

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,



Are we going round in circles?

I think I established the spiritual and material element in my first post “So I would say Social action is a better term for the section than social justice because the work of Jesus is to preach the gospel and to help those in need according to the Kingdom not of this world, so the world does not always see justice in the same way as God. "

However my contention was that the Jews expected their Messiah to take on the injustice of Romans rule, but instead of overthrowing the Romans Himself, he seemed to want to do it by inviting each of the Romans to become one of His disciples rather than changing their system.



As to demonstrations we do differ I guess but if it works then praise God. I dont need all kinds of info about Christian Charities as I already support them and praise God for them!!

However this thread is about any dispute with the term “social justice” I would call it social action or better still Christian action, then it is clearer what that action and justice implies, as social suggests to me 'the world' and Christian suggests to me 'the Kingdom of God' brought to the world.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Well this forum has been called social justice.

To me social is about the society we live in, whether our local community or the "world village". Justice is about making things fairer for everyone, just like Jesus said he wanted to do in the quote from Luke 4 I first quoted.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Treasure the Questions,

Well this forum has been called social justice.

Well this thread is asking about that definition.

To me social is about the society we live in, whether our local community or the "world village". Justice is about making things fairer for everyone, just like Jesus said he wanted to do in the quote from Luke 4 I first quoted.

Ah that’s where we differ. To me society includes all views and all beliefs and conditions. The NT is full of scripture which tells us we as disciples are set apart, sort of ‘in the world’ but ‘not of the world’ in our thinking, understanding and actions. We pray let His Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as in heaven so the implication is that social justice is a justice that the world sees, identifies with and understands, not necessarily fairer for everyone as not everyone has the same idea of fair. Also as to the passage from Luke 4, the Jews saw freedom from the Romans as social justice don’t you agree?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Ah that’s where we differ. To me society includes all views and all beliefs and conditions. The NT is full of scripture which tells us we as disciples are set apart, sort of ‘in the world’ but ‘not of the world’ in our thinking, understanding and actions. We pray let His Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as in heaven so the implication is that social justice is a justice that the world sees, identifies with and understands, not necessarily fairer for everyone as not everyone has the same idea of fair. Also as to the passage from Luke 4, the Jews saw freedom from the Romans as social justice don’t you agree?

Christians are to be "in the world, but not of the world", which to me means that we are to live differently, according to Jesus' law of love: to love God above all else, to love our neighbour as ourself. However, we are definitely "in the world" and should interact with the people around us in a way that shows God's love for them and puts God's justice into action, by preaching good news to the poor, proclaiming release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, setting at liberty those who are oppressed and proclaiming the acceptable year of the Lord, as best we can, with Jesus' help. God's standard of justice and fairness is the standard we are to use.

When we pray for God's kingdom to come, it reminds us that that is the end to which we should be working for. Prayer must go hand in hand with action and God's kingdom is in the here and now.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Thought I'd just quote Erwin's description of this forum:

New Forum: Social Justice

Social Justice
A new forum to discuss Christianity and social justice - how Christians should impact the world in a practical manner.

A lot of times, Christians focus on themselves, and seem to forget that Jesus came for the sinners and the lost. We need to truly love our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[ahab]

Treasure the Questions,



We are almost still going round in circles. You seem to me to have practically repeated what I wrote.

However I go back to the original Luke 4. Do we preach the good news to the poor as in those on welfare or low incomes and poor housing or do we also preach to the poor in spirit and those who don’t know Jesus or the Kingdom of God? Do we just pray for the physically blind to see or also for those who cant see the truth of Jesus? Do we just pray for those physically imprisoned because of their beliefs or who they are, to be set free, or also for liberty to all from the bondage of drugs, despair, depression, bitterness, discontent etc?

Do we just preach to the poor the good news or do we also help them by sharing what we have?
I agree with Erwins descripture but I dont think 'social justice' is what it is, to me its more Christian than social and more action than justice.

puts God's justice into action

Exactly! God’s justice isn’t the same as what many people in society see as justice.

Also as to the passage from Luke 4, the Jews saw freedom from the Romans as social justice don’t you agree?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

However I go back to the original Luke 4. Do we preach the good news to the poor as in those on welfare or low incomes and poor housing or do we also preach to the poor in spirit and those who don’t know Jesus or the Kingdom of God? Do we just pray for the physically blind to see or also for those who cant see the truth of Jesus? Do we just pray for those physically imprisoned because of their beliefs or who they are, to be set free, or also for liberty to all from the bondage of drugs, despair, depression, bitterness, discontent etc?

Do we just preach to the poor the good news or do we also help them by sharing what we have?

We share God's concern for both people's physical and spiritual well-being and we recognise that spiritual malaise is related to physical and emotional problems. We adopt a Jewish rather than a classical Greek mindset and see human beings as integrated minds, bodies and spirits. We pray and we act upon our prayers as prompted by God.

When we preach the good news to the poor we only use words when necessary, mostly we work for them or with them. Sharing what we have is good, but helping them to help themselves is better.

I agree with Erwins descripture but I dont think 'social justice' is what it is, to me its more Christian than social and more action than justice.

Let's not quibble over minor details.

Exactly! God’s justice isn’t the same as what many people in society see as justice.

Quite possibly, but it depends which people, and hopefully Christians have a reasonable idea about what God's justice involves.

Also as to the passage from Luke 4, the Jews saw freedom from the Romans as social justice don’t you agree? .

Quite possibly. Freedom means different things to different people as we had ample opportunity to reflect on at various activities at Greenbelt this year, which was "Freedom Bound".

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,



Despite the thread labouring rather I am still intrigued with the debate.

IMO spiritual malaise is spiritual. It is related to physical and emotional problems but physical and emotional problems can be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. If God’s Holy Spirit lives in us then that’s spiritual well being. We are overcomers of situations. Paul, who wrote in Greek, had such experience of that, coming from Tarsus where Greek philosophy was so strong, and having been a fanatical devout Jew. (He was also a Roman citizen by his parents as well)



But we are still telling each other that we should help the poor and both agreeing with each other, and yet the issue here is the meaning of the thread title. For a start when we say ‘preach the good news to the poor’ what about the wealthy who are poor? Is social justice primarily helping the materially poor or is social action a better term or even community action. Surely the good news of the Kingdom is for all, the poor are also the poor in spirit who don’t have the hope of glory.

Exactly! God’s justice isn’t the same as what many people in society see as justice.Quite possibly, but it depends which people, and hopefully Christians have a reasonable idea about what God's justice involves.

My point is Jesus came to proclaim justice to the nations Matt 12:18 (Isa 42) “In his name the nations will put their hope” I would contend that justice is the gospel, as Paul says the sin of the flesh is overcome through Jesus' provision of the Spirit. So Paul calls the kingdom of God a matter of power, justice, peace and joy inspired by the Spirit (1 Cor 4:20, Rom 14:17) I would contend that selling possessions and giving to the poor and sharing what we have is ‘social action.’

Quite possibly. Freedom means different things to different people as we had ample opportunity to reflect on at various activities at Greenbelt this year, which was "Freedom Bound".

Well freedom does mean different things to different people but creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Rom 8:21) “

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” (2 Cor 3:16-18) “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.” Galatians 5:1. “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32, So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36. I would say that freedom in Christ Jesus is more like social justice, but our looking after widows and orphans, feeding and clothing the poor and selling possessions to give to the poor is social action.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Not sure what you're driving at, ahab. You seem to want to narrow things down, I think. I'm happy to widen the vision. I like to see the "bigger picture".

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

Not sure what you're driving at, ahab. You seem to want to narrow things down, I think. I'm happy to widen the vision. I like to see the "bigger picture".

Well the bigger picture is what I have been talking about and looks like what you cant see.
Let me summarise.
IMO spiritual malaise is spiritual. It is related to physical and emotional problems but physical and emotional problems can be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit, so for people to know Jesus and recieve the Holy Spirit will give them peace, joy and righteousness regardless of their circumstances. So if we give a very hungry drug addict some food he may still die from an overdose. Peter didnt say to the cripple on the temple steps (Acts 3) here is some money go and see a physician, he said get up and walk in the name of Jesus.

You see to me the justice isnt making sure the poor are fed, the justice is Jesus proclaimed, feeding the poor is the justice in action. Therefore I prefer to call social justice the preaching of the gospel and to call social action the looking after the materially poor.

As to freedom, I am even more intrigued. Of course different people have different ideas to what freedom is, for example, politcal, sexual, privacy/freedom of speech etc. I would have thought Greenbelt would have been focused or an opportunity to focus on freedom in Jesus, especially to any non-Christains there.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

So if we give a very hungry drug addict some food he may still die from an overdose.

Therefore the drug addict needs more than food, and we should give him all the care we are able to, if he is willing to accept it. We should also consider the conditions in which drug addiction develops and do what we can to improve those conditions, which may involve putting pressure on politicians.

You see to me the justice isnt making sure the poor are fed, the justice is Jesus proclaimed, feeding the poor is the justice in action. Therefore I prefer to call social justice the preaching of the gospel and to call social action the looking after the materially poor.

Whereas I see giving food in Jesus' name as preaching the gospel, and a way of making it possible that we will be asked who Jesus is and what he means to us. In my book feeding the hungry, or whatever, should never be dependant on them hearing a sermon first. We must earn the privilege of them asking us about Jesus.

As to freedom, I am even more intrigued. Of course different people have different ideas to what freedom is, for example, politcal, sexual, privacy/freedom of speech etc. I would have thought Greenbelt would have been focused or an opportunity to focus on freedom in Jesus, especially to any non-Christains there.

We were looking at the things we might need freeing from such as unjust trade rules or long working hours or just the need to conform, for example. In the Communion Service there was a definite emphasis on Jesus' power to free us from whatever we need freeing from, but also on the need for us to do our part to help certain peope to be more free. Somehow people don't need to talk about Jesus all that much at Greenbelt, it's just so obvious he's there and that that's what the speakers and most others are about.

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

Therefore the drug addict needs more than food, and we should give him all the care we are able to, if he is willing to accept it. We should also consider the conditions in which drug addiction develops and do what we can to improve those conditions, which may involve putting pressure on politicians.

Surely that is what social services do? It seems every time I say faith and works you just tell me about works.

I also think we shouId voice our opinions but I don’t ever remember Jesus or the New Testament apostles putting pressure on a government. IMO what the drug addict needs ultimately is the power of the Holy Spirit which can also and does also deliver drug addicts and anyone in bondage to addiction, for free and for good.

Whereas I see giving food in Jesus' name as preaching the gospel, and a way of making it possible that we will be asked who Jesus is and what he means to us.

Well yes I absolutely agree, social action leads to the opportunity to preach the gospel and gives us credibility when people see we do what we say. But the Kingdom of Heaven came to the wealthy Zaccheus when he gave half his wealth to the poor, the poor that he gave his wealth to only get the Kingdom when they receive the revelation of Jesus Christ like Zaccheus. You seem to have limited justice just to the poor in wealth, what about the wealthy person who all material possessions he/she needs but feels suicidal because he/she has no hope? If social justice is the term to use then social justice should be inclusive of all.

My point however was that when scripture talks about justice its about Jesus “In his name the nations will put their hope”. Justice therefore is hope not food.

As to freedom, I would say that we are free in Christ Jesus, free from the law, free not to sin and free to live in the love of God as inheritors of the Kingdom, joy peace and righteouness in the Holy Spirit. I grant you that world trade is unjust because it exploits but I think man caused that. Long working hours is a curse to, but some starving people and unemployed people would delight in long working hours just right now. Joy in all circumstances means all circumstances because if we die today or tomorrow we still know Jesus loved us so much that He died for us so we may have eternal life.

In the Communion Service there was a definite emphasis on Jesus' power to free us from whatever we need freeing from.

Well I should hope so too. Jesus has the spiritual power to set us free from all that is not of Him and the Kingdom, but thats available all the time through the Holy Spirit and the peace and healing we recieved from those stripes and that cross.

but also on the need for us to do our part to help certain peope to be more free.

Amen, but not just free to trade but set free by the power of the gospel, “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36

Somehow people don't need to talk about Jesus all that much at Greenbelt, it's just so obvious he's there and that that's what the speakers and most others are about.

I should hope so too, it is a Christian festival.