bbbbbbb

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Today, Ladies are more educated than Biblical times.
That is partially true. In many third-world countries neither men nor women are any more educated than in the past. In first-world countries both men as well as women are much more educated (using a standard parameter of time spent in formal schooling) than in previous centuries.

Does more education mean that people (men and women) are now somehow more intelligent than previous generations? The answer to that question is a resounding no. Education cannot create intelligence. Education is a tool which enables intelligence to better deal with life, in general, and with particular aspects of life, including theology. The pursuit of theology requires a significant amount of free time. The average laborer in a factory, both historically and in the present, has had far less leisure time to pursue the fruits of education, including theology. Thus, any interest in the subject is relegated to those who have had the advantage to go down that path. It is not dissimilar to the field of medicine. One can say that both men and women are much more educated in medical matters than in biblical times. However, that hardly means that your average person today is equally capable to perform medical procedures such as heart surgery. For that, I will trust a trained and certified physician and not just anyone who claims that they are medically proficient because they have read a general book about medicine.
 
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The Liturgist

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That is partially true. In many third-world countries neither men nor women are any more educated than in the past. In first-world countries both men as well as women are much more educated (using a standard parameter of time spent in formal schooling) than in previous centuries.

Does more education mean that people (men and women) are now somehow more intelligent than previous generations? The answer to that question is a resounding no. Education cannot create intelligence. Education is a tool which enables intelligence to better deal with life, in general, and with particular aspects of life, including theology. The pursuit of theology requires a significant amount of free time. The average laborer in a factory, both historically and in the present, has had far less leisure time to pursue the fruits of education, including theology. Thus, any interest in the subject is relegated to those who have had the advantage to go down that path. It is not dissimilar to the field of medicine. One can say that both men and women are much more educated in medical matters than in biblical times. However, that hardly means that your average person today is equally capable to perform medical procedures such as heart surgery. For that, I will trust a trained and certified physician and not just anyone who claims that they are medically proficient because they have read a general book about medicine.

I entirely reject the idea that women are less suitable for serving as clergy because of inferior intelligence on their part. I am assuming that was not the point you were trying to make (if it was, I would not dignify such an argument with a reply). Indeed by the standard of intellectual capability we probably ought to have only female clerics, since @Paidiske is obviously more intelligent than I am in multiple respects!

For goodness sakes don’t put me out of a job…
 
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The Liturgist

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I have to confess I dislike the direction this thread might travel in, or might already be going in. I cannot countenance some sort of attempt to compare the intelligence of women and men as this strikes me as a violation of what St. Paul taught in Galatians and of the second commandment of our Lord, known as the Golden Rule, that we should do unto others only as we would want done unto ourselves.

In my experience women are at least as intelligent as men, and thus this cannot be considered a valid argument. Indeed to suggest women are less intelligent than men is both mean spirited and misogynistic.

With women such as my friends @Paidiske and a local Presbyterian chaplain for the fire department who is alas not a member of this forum, I see extremely professional clergy who are devout, extremely focused on pastoral care, and eminently worthy of serving in the ministry.

@Paidiske is also one of the few people I would trust to do my funeral if I should repose prematurely.
 
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I do not think women should lead the church and denominations that feature female pastors are usually liberal candy-coated Christianity the last thing the church needs. I am not saying God can not raise up a genuine female minister on fire for the Word of God but in my experience the fruit of this does not look good.
 
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I entirely reject the idea that women are less suitable for serving as clergy because of inferior intelligence on their part. I am assuming that was not the point you were trying to make (if it was, I would not dignify such an argument with a reply). Indeed by the standard of intellectual capability we probably ought to have only female clerics, since @Paidiske is obviously more intelligent than I am in multiple respects!

For goodness sakes don’t put me out of a job…
I was actually attempting to refute that notion. My assertion is that intelligence is not gender-specific. Simply having education available does not make any person more intelligent. The assertion that because women are more educated now than in biblical times they are somehow better and more intelligent is utter nonsense. If education was the primary means of determining the qualifications of being a pastor, then none of the apostles should have ever been considered. The fact is that God chooses to use the weak and beggarly elements of this world for His glory.
 
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denominations that feature female pastors are usually liberal candy-coated Christianity the last thing the church needs.

Some of the mainline denominations that have female clergy have gone out into the weeds by teaching false doctrine such as downplaying the importance of the Holy Trinity, and, in my view, profaning the liturgy, for example, by performing homosexual marriages, but others do not do this and are quite conservative; correlation is not causation. Also, even in some denominations where this is not officially the case, such as the United Methodist Church, there has been rampant disobedience by clergy, but some of the worst offenders, for example, Rev. Jeremy Smith, whose blog “Hacking Christianity” lives up to its name in every sense of the word “hacking” except the sense he meant (among computer programmers, hacking refers not to breaking into computer systems but rather writing clever solutions in the programming language you are computing in, which is what he intended in a view to being clever), in which he has falsely claimed that John Wesley was opposed to creeds (which is untrue, John Wesley loved the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, “I believe there is no liturgy in the world, either in ancient or modern language, which breathes more of a solid, scriptural, rational Piety, than the Common Prayer of the Church of England,” and the BCP includes all three creeds; furthermore, in the simplified version of the Book of Common Prayer that John Wesley assembled for use in the Methodist Episcopal Church of North America, he ensured that the Apostle’s Creed was retained in the main services of Morning and Evening Prayer and Holy Communion and elsewhere, as appropriate (this book is called The Sunday Service Book for Methodists in North America).

I don’t know of a single female Methodist cleric who has even come close to the level of disobedience to the UMC Book of Discipline, advocating disobedience of the Book of Discipline, and also promoting heresy (as defined by the Christian Forums Statement of Faith), but I do know of other Methodist ministers with similar dispositions, who were male, including one who manhandled a relative of mine when her father died to keep her from approaching the body to kiss him one last time, for reasons that are unfathomable, and in the process bruised her, which is shocking pastoral abuse (in the Orthodox Church the right of relatives to kiss their loved ones for the last time is ensured in the funeral liturgy itself by rubrics, so those who are desire to do that can do so), and another who supported homosexual marriage and told me he had “issues” with the Nicene Creed, specifically with how it describes the Son as being of one essence with the Father, which is, of course, the essential clause in the entire Nicene Creed, because the Arian controversy was primarily over whether or not our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is God, begotten of the Father before all ages, and of one substance with the Father (in Greek, the phrase is homoousios, meaning “same essence”), as the Creed teaches, or if rather, as Arius and his followers argued, Jesus Christ was created, and there were, after Nicaea, two factions that formed in Arianism, one of which argued that his essence was like that of the Father, but not the same (homoiousios) or among the more extreme Arians, that His essence was unlike that of the Father (heteroousios).

Thus we have the paradox of a mainline denomination that affirms the Nicene Creed, which is also part of our Statement of Faith on Christian Forums, that had a pastor of a parish who “had issues” (which is a Southern Californian expression for disagreeing with or being opposed to, as in “I have issues with you” or “I’m going to have to take issue with that”) with the Nicene Creed, which would technically make him a non-Christian according to the extremely generous doctrinal standards of this website.

Now, in contrast, the majority of female clergy known to me, including @Paidiske , have orthodox views on the Trinity; indeed @Paidiske has an admirable dedication to historic Anglicanism as expressed in the 39 Articles of Religion. Likewise my friend Rev. Bolton who runs a homeless shelter and works as a chaplain for our county Fire Department, which basically entails responding whenever firefighters, who in this part of the US also are paramedics, and are usually the first on scene whenever there is a medical 911 phone call (if you live in the Riverside that is in California, you know what I am talking about), consists of responding when the fire department is unable to resuscitate someone who has, for example, died in their home, and helping the family through a ministry of presence. Both women are leaders, who are intelligent, doctrinally orthodox on all essential points, who I would feel comfortable concelebrating a liturgy with, for example, Morning or Evening Prayer.

Furthermore, the early church, which did not tolerate homosexuality, contumacy among clergy, or other abuses, did have female clergy in the form of Deaconesses, who were ministers of the Baptismal Font in the same way that their counterparts, the Deacons, were ministers of the Chalice; in that Deaconesses were the ones who would go down into the water with women being baptized, rather than the male presbyters, for reasons of propriety (Deacons had a comparable role, which is twofold: in the liturgy, assisting in the distribution of Holy Communion, and also after the liturgy taking the consecrated Body and Blood of our Lord to the sick who were unable to attend.

In addition, the entire nation of Georgia owes its Christianity to the evangelism of St. Nino, an Armenian princess who spread the Gospel to Georgia. The Georgian Orthodox Church is one of the most traditional and conservative of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and it was established as the result of evangelism by a woman. Now, they do not have female presbyters, although in Orthodox churches, the wives of pastors, called Presbyteras, are viewed as being the spiritual mothers of a parish in the same way that their husbands are the spiritual fathers of a parish, so the Presbyter and Presbytera are like the King and Queen, and the majority of Orthodox parish priests are married (indeed, the freedom to have married clergy has always been a point of divergence between the Eastern churches and the Roman Church; this issue was even discussed, I believe, at Nicaea, when the two Roman delegates (out of the 318 bishops present) brought up clerical celibacy, but found that the idea was not acceptable to the other churches. Indeed within the Roman Catholic Church itself, clerical celibacy is not required in most of the Eastern Catholic Churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, nor is it required of clergy in the recently created “Anglican Ordinariates” which were established for the minority of Anglicans that since the 19th century had wanted to join the Catholic Church while retaining their Anglican liturgy.

So based on this, I would argue that it cannot be said that women in the ministry is a causation of heterodox or heretical views. While it is true that the mainline Protestant denominations that are having doctrinal difficulties In the form of disobedient clergy, like the United Methodist Church, do have female clergy, in my experience it is usually male clergy who are responsible for the disastrous decisions which have led so many members to leave these churches, for example, Bishop Gene Robinson of the Episcopal Church, who, when he became a bishop, due to his homosexuality, caused a large number of Episcopalians to leave the denomination, this was due to male clergy. And likewise, in most of these denominations, the decision to have female clergy was made by men anyway, so it is really unfair to blame women for these issues.

Now, I am not saying all female clergy are inherently doctrinally orthodox; I did not greatly admire the former presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, who was a woman, because I felt her sermons were doctrinally weak, and her decision to sue dioceses that wanted to leave the Episcopal Church, which cost around $50 million in legal fees, proved to be the wrong one when the US Supreme Court allowed the DIocese of Fort Worth to leave the Episcopal Church and take with it the real estate. I also disagreed with what I perceived to be weak Christology in her homilies. However, the bishops who elected her were predominantly male, and to her credit, the rate at which the Episcopal Church contracted was less during her tenure than during the early 2000s in the aftermath of Gene Robinson becoming a bishop. However, all of this pales in comparison to those issues caused by male clergy.

Oh, and while we’re on it, here is an interesting fact: of the various heresies which have affected Christianity, following the Byzantine theory of Heresiology, which is a belief that all heresies after Iconoclasm (which in Byzantine theology is regarded as a heresy, and also the final distinctive form of heresy, except among some predominantly Old Calendarist Eastern Orthodox who talk about the “Pan-Heresy of Ecumenism”, which I disagree with insofar as I do not believe ecumenical dialogue or the reunification of churches separated by schisms is inherently heretical, but rather, it would only be heretical if one embraced a doctrinal heresy in order to re-establish communion with some schismatic sect, for example, to reunite the Mormons with a Christian church, declaring the Book of Mormon to be legitimate) are merely regurgitations of earlier heresies, which is logical, and if we follow that technique it is possible to deconstruct every heretical sect from Swedenborgianism to Christian Science to Mormonism to Unitarian Universalism back to ancient heresies of the first several centuries, it is worth noting that no heresies were established by women.

Indeed, even if we reject the Byzantine model of heresiology and say that there have been new heresies to appear since the seventh century, none can be said to have been established by women, unless one counts Theosophy as a heresy (I regard it as a separate denomination), with the sole exception of Christian Science, but even Christian Science was simply a permutation of a broader group of related denominations known as the “New Thought Movement”; Mary Baker Eddy contributed specifically her book “Health and Science with Key to the Scriptures,” and a few other distinctive heretical practices of that cult.

So that is exactly one heretical cult, maybe two, if one counts Theosophy (established by a Madame Blavatsky) established by a woman, out of literally thousands established by men.

Now, in the 1990s there was a cult, The Church Spiritual and Triumphant, whose televangelism was conducted by the wife of the founder, but she did not found it.

Lastly, the only seriously heterodox female pastor of a mainline denomination that I am aware of is the pastor of Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco, which she has rebranded as “herchurch”, which has adopted a radical feminist theology which departs from Christianity in a number of respects, including selling “Mother Goddess Rosaries” which instead of a crucifix, feature an idol of a female deity, which looks like it could be Venus or perhaps Athena or Aurora.

So really, we cannot say that women cause heretical activity in mainline churches except on the smallest scale, compared to men. There is not a causal relationship between women serving in various forms of ministry, and churches embracing heretical teaching. There may be correlation among some of the mainline churches, but other mainline churches had female clergy since the 19th century, and only recently have started to have doctrinal issues, and there are other Protestant churches which have had female clergy for even longer, which do not have these doctrinal issues. In the US I can think of several denominations which have for a long time had female clergy, but which are doctrinally well within the pale one would desire.

Thus my position remains that it is wrong and hurtful to simply dismiss the role of women in the ministry, since they have always had a role, and have done very important things, for example, St. Theclas aided St. Paul in his evangelism. She, along with St. Mary Magdalene (not to be confused with St. Mary of Bethany, the sister of St. Martha, which is often done in the West), and St. Nino the Illuminator of Georgia, are among the women venerated as Equal to the Apostles by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

It is legitimate to oppose the introduction of female clergy where this would cause a schism, in my opinion, because schisms are so disastrous when they occur, or where a majority of the people in the denomination including a majority of the women are opposed to it, and there are denominations where this is the case, but this does not warrant a general ban on women in the ministry across all churches. Indeed there are some churches where I believe a schism would have happened had women not been admitted to the ministry. Schisms are not worth it, which is why I am so upset about the forcing of a schism in the United Methodist Church.

Furthermore, even if one disagrees with having female presbyters or bishops, there are a vast array of other ministries women perform. For example, there is no conceivable way that one could argue that, for instance, the Roman Catholic church does not have women in ministry. Consider the various consecrated nuns, who have historically ministered through running schools, providing nursing staff at hospitals, and in many other roles. Indeed one of the most influential leaders of the Roman Catholic church in the late 20th century, for a time the most influential after Pope John Paul II, was Mother Theresa, an Albanian Catholic nun who set up the Sisters of Charity to take care of the dying in Calcutta, who is now, deservedly I think, venerated as a saint.
 
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The Liturgist

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I was actually attempting to refute that notion. My assertion is that intelligence is not gender-specific. Simply having education available does not make any person more intelligent. The assertion that because women are more educated now than in biblical times they are somehow better and more intelligent is utter nonsense. If education was the primary means of determining the qualifications of being a pastor, then none of the apostles should have ever been considered. The fact is that God chooses to use the weak and beggarly elements of this world for His glory.

Thank you for clarifying that.

My view is that since these forums are blessed to have such a professional minister on these forums as @Paidiske, who is one of the two most professional clerics I am aware of on the forum (the other being ArmyMatt, an Eastern Orthodox chaplain with the US Army who only posts in The Ancient Way subforum), not counting Der Alte, because I think he is retired; I am not sure, we are really blessed to have her, and threads like this are extremely hurtful to her and to other women when they take a particular turn. Especially when people who reject the idea of church tradition having any meaning (and I don’t mean you, since as a Calvinist, you belong to the very denomination that coined the phrase consensus patrum, and John Calvin was very interested in the opinions of the Early Church Fathers, although Karl Barth was not, but it is difficult to say to what extent the “Neo-Orthodoxy” of Karl Barth is normative within Calvinism, that might be an interesting thread), but rather, people from denominations that embrace, instead of Sola Scriptura, something like Nuda Scriptura (a combination of Sufficiency of Scripture and Perspicuity of Scripture) attempt to argue against the ordination of women, because inevitably these lead to discussions of qualitative differences between men and women, in such a way that men are made to come across as superior, which I find very offensive and I am sure my friend @Paidiske and other female members of the forum find very offensive.

Indeed in the traditional form of Christianity I practice, the saint we venerate as the most holy human being with a human father is Our Most Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. St. Mary is regarded as the New Eve, the person who obeyed God more closely than anyone else, and who because of her piety and faith in God was chosen to be the mother of His only begotten Son during the Incarnation, and is thus the Theotokos, the birth-giver of God (since Jesus Christ is God incarnate according to John 1:1-18), and so naturally, we venerate the Theotokos the most.

And as far as scripture is concerned, we have Galatians, which confirms a Christian egalitarianism “There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for all are one in Christ Jesus”, and this beautiful statement, which I would note does not require there to be female presbyters or bishops, but does require that women be regarded with equal love and respect as men, and establishes that they are full members of the Priesthood of All Believers, should be used to positively discredit arguments against female clergy that stem from the idea that women have some sort of inadequacy and this is why they are not to serve as clergy.

If someone believes that St. Paul prohibits it based on his epistles; fine, if someone believes that it is prohibited based on the traditions of the early church, this is at least partially inaccurate insofar as the early church had Deaconesses and Evangelists who were women, some of whom were critically important, such as St. Nino, without whom, the Kart’veli people who would wind up ruling the nation of Georgia would never have been converted from paganism, but still, I can accept such an argument for at least being non-misogynistic, and if someone takes a view that women should only serve in the ministries they have historically served on since the early church, fine, but what crosses the line for me in a huge way is when people, needlessly I should point out, use the Pauline epistles as a jumping off point for basically arguing that women are inherently less intelligent, or less holy, or otherwise less than men and thus less qualified in that respect, based on an inherent inferiority, and as an Orthodox Christian who loves the Blessed Virgin Mary and who loves the early church, and as a Christian who has been blessed with wonderful female ministers in my life, I have to reject any view that women cannot be ministers because they are inferior to men with the greatest distaste, for I find it astonishingly offensive.

Particularly in light of the fact that, as I noted in my previous post, of the people advancing divisive theology in the mainline Protestant denominations, they are nearly all male, with only one exception I can think of (the unusual case of “herchurch” in San Francisco, the existence of which is facilitated by a male bishop in the ELCA, by the way), and likewise I can think of, at most, two, heretical sects, founded by women, and if we use the Byzantine model of heresiology, since the New Thought movement that Christian Science and Theosophy are a part of are both variants on Gnosticism, that means that no heresies were actually invented by women.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Thank you for clarifying that.

My view is that since these forums are blessed to have such a professional minister on these forums as @Paidiske, who is one of the two most professional clerics I am aware of on the forum (the other being ArmyMatt, an Eastern Orthodox chaplain with the US Army who only posts in The Ancient Way subforum), not counting Der Alte, because I think he is retired; I am not sure, we are really blessed to have her, and threads like this are extremely hurtful to her and to other women when they take a particular turn. Especially when people who reject the idea of church tradition having any meaning (and I don’t mean you, since as a Calvinist, you belong to the very denomination that coined the phrase consensus patrum, and John Calvin was very interested in the opinions of the Early Church Fathers, although Karl Barth was not, but it is difficult to say to what extent the “Neo-Orthodoxy” of Karl Barth is normative within Calvinism, that might be an interesting thread), but rather, people from denominations that embrace, instead of Sola Scriptura, something like Nuda Scriptura (a combination of Sufficiency of Scripture and Perspicuity of Scripture) attempt to argue against the ordination of women, because inevitably these lead to discussions of qualitative differences between men and women, in such a way that men are made to come across as superior, which I find very offensive and I am sure my friend @Paidiske and other female members of the forum find very offensive.

Indeed in the traditional form of Christianity I practice, the saint we venerate as the most holy human being with a human father is Our Most Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. St. Mary is regarded as the New Eve, the person who obeyed God more closely than anyone else, and who because of her piety and faith in God was chosen to be the mother of His only begotten Son during the Incarnation, and is thus the Theotokos, the birth-giver of God (since Jesus Christ is God incarnate according to John 1:1-18), and so naturally, we venerate the Theotokos the most.

And as far as scripture is concerned, we have Galatians, which confirms a Christian egalitarianism “There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for all are one in Christ Jesus”, and this beautiful statement, which I would note does not require there to be female presbyters or bishops, but does require that women be regarded with equal love and respect as men, and establishes that they are full members of the Priesthood of All Believers, should be used to positively discredit arguments against female clergy that stem from the idea that women have some sort of inadequacy and this is why they are not to serve as clergy.

If someone believes that St. Paul prohibits it based on his epistles; fine, if someone believes that it is prohibited based on the traditions of the early church, this is at least partially inaccurate insofar as the early church had Deaconesses and Evangelists who were women, some of whom were critically important, such as St. Nino, without whom, the Kart’veli people who would wind up ruling the nation of Georgia would never have been converted from paganism, but still, I can accept such an argument for at least being non-misogynistic, and if someone takes a view that women should only serve in the ministries they have historically served on since the early church, fine, but what crosses the line for me in a huge way is when people, needlessly I should point out, use the Pauline epistles as a jumping off point for basically arguing that women are inherently less intelligent, or less holy, or otherwise less than men and thus less qualified in that respect, based on an inherent inferiority, and as an Orthodox Christian who loves the Blessed Virgin Mary and who loves the early church, and as a Christian who has been blessed with wonderful female ministers in my life, I have to reject any view that women cannot be ministers because they are inferior to men with the greatest distaste, for I find it astonishingly offensive.

Particularly in light of the fact that, as I noted in my previous post, of the people advancing divisive theology in the mainline Protestant denominations, they are nearly all male, with only one exception I can think of (the unusual case of “herchurch” in San Francisco, the existence of which is facilitated by a male bishop in the ELCA, by the way), and likewise I can think of, at most, two, heretical sects, founded by women, and if we use the Byzantine model of heresiology, since the New Thought movement that Christian Science and Theosophy are a part of are both variants on Gnosticism, that means that no heresies were actually invented by women.
Thank for your excellent reply. Like yourself, I utterly reject the misogyny that is rampant in many churches today. The RCC should not only address their various forms of misogyny, but also their peculiar insistence on priestly celibacy. If one wishes to make a biblical case for gender-specific offices one, as you know, can find various verses which distinguish various gifts given by God to His church. For example, we have four gifts listed in Ephesians 4. If one understands the apostles as being the twelve (including Matthias, but excluding Paul) then one can say that the gift of apostles was for males only (which is the general thought in the RCC). Then one must bridge the gap to say that prophets were not prophetesses (ignoring the daughters of Philip the evangelist), that evangelists were only men (ignoring solid biblical evidence of women such as Priscilla), and that pastors and teachers were only elders who are described in I Timothy 3 as being men (only).

I could further explicate on the various weaknesses of such a position, but I, unfortunately, do not have the time now to do so and I know that you are very well aware of these various difficulties.

The bottom line is, of course, that women are in no way inferior to men nor men inferior to women nor one human racial group superior or inferior to another, etc.
 
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Strong in Him

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Should I attend a church that has a woman preacher ? Or even a woman labeled as a preacher even though she doesn’t preach.
It's up to you.
It depends on your beliefs about female pastors/preachers, whether the gender of the preacher would, for you, detract from the message, whether the church preaches the Gospel, whether you feel welcomed in the church and want, or are given, opportunities to serve/get involved.

Female pastors and preachers is something that has been debated for years, and many times on these forums. Some churches allow women to preach, others don't. It is not a salvation issue.
 
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It's up to you.
It depends on your beliefs about female pastors/preachers, whether the gender of the preacher would, for you, detract from the message, whether the church preaches the Gospel, whether you feel welcomed in the church and want, or are given, opportunities to serve/get involved.

Female pastors and preachers is something that has been debated for years, and many times on these forums. Some churches allow women to preach, others don't. It is not a salvation issue.
I don't think "preaching" per se gets even close to theologically controversial. I don't think it gets controversial (and by "controversial" I mean questionable) until the woman is put as a pastor--a shepherd--over men.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't think "preaching" per se gets even close to theologically controversial. I don't think it gets controversial (and by "controversial" I mean questionable) until the woman is put as a pastor--a shepherd--over men.
I think you have put your finger on the issue. The issue is one of authority, not merely talking. Like it or not, virtually all people find themselves in some position of authority even if it is only over a pet dog. Shepherds have authority and responsibility for their sheep. Pastors, scripturally, are not priests nor even elders. They are one of the gifts to the church from God. As such, no qualifications are listed for them, which opens the question up for debate. One can easily see that married women do have a degree of authority over their children and, as such, tenderly shepherd (pastor) their children. In many churches women are given authority over other children, as well, in Sunday School classes and youth work. Where would the church be without these faithful women?

The problem has been that the roles of elder and pastor have been conflated into that of a priest. Whether or not Protestant churches call their pastor a priest, they accord him varying degrees of authority. At that point, the qualifications of an elder come into play, along with other verses stressing women's submissive role in the church. The net result, today, are many churches that simply cannot find any man to take that role, leaving the choice down to nobody or a woman. This is especially true in China where people must work seven days a week, with breaks for various holidays, in order to support themselves. Men simply are unavailable and the churches cannot afford to pay anyone to pastor them or to preach.
 
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I don't think "preaching" per se gets even close to theologically controversial.
That's just it, it does.

On these forums, some people have quoted 1 Timothy 2:12 to "prove" that a woman cannot be a pastor. Yet they would concede that a woman need not be silent in church; can read the lesson, worship, give a testimony etc. Some have indeed said that women can preach.
People have told me, using that same verse, that I should not be preaching as it is having authority over men - yet they've been unable to explain how.
Years ago, I saw a post from someone who said that his wife does not even say "amen" in church - because it's speaking. At least she was consistent in what she believed.
 
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RDKirk

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That's just it, it does.

On these forums, some people have quoted 1 Timothy 2:12 to "prove" that a woman cannot be a pastor. Yet they would concede that a woman need not be silent in church; can read the lesson, worship, give a testimony etc. Some have indeed said that women can preach.
People have told me, using that same verse, that I should not be preaching as it is having authority over men - yet they've been unable to explain how.
Years ago, I saw a post from someone who said that his wife does not even say "amen" in church - because it's speaking. At least she was consistent in what she believed.
That goes into what @bbbbbbb just posted.

Where congregations have conflated "preacher" with "pastor" or "elder," then they have given that role authority over men...when it doesn't have such authority scripturally.

Preaching is prophesy, which women are clearly given the gift to perform by multiple scriptural witnesses. Some congregations limit prophesy to pastors, which is not scriptural. And even then, they don't distinguish between pastors and deacons. Pastor is barely defined in scripture, but the woman (and it will always be a woman) running the nursery during service is also a pastor, or a deacon...and she will even have delegated authority from the actual elders to direct men within the scope of her special deaconate, "Sir, if you don't have a child here, then please leave!"
 
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Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Moses sister Miriam was prophetess.

Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Phillip had 4 virgin daughters that never knew a man who were also teachers of the gospel traveling with Phillip through Caesarea in which Judah never conquered but Phillip and his daughters did through the HS.

Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

When no man stood up to defend Israel GOD chose Deborah who led them into victory.

2Ch 34:22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college:) and they spake to her to that effect.

A woman way back than who was a prophetess at a college, they sought her advice over all others. Zethaniah and Jeremiah, Zedakiah all was around but they went to her to inquire of the Word.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

There is more but anyone who denies a true teacher of the doctrine of CHRIST (male or female) does not do the will of CHRIST. They use
 
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I think you have put your finger on the issue. The issue is one of authority, not merely talking.
Deborah was judge over the whole nation, sorting out men's disputes, Judges 4:4.

Shepherds have authority and responsibility for their sheep.
Rachel was a shepherdess, Genesis 29:9.

In many churches women are given authority over other children, as well, in Sunday School classes and youth work. Where would the church be without these faithful women?
Indeed. But that is not the limit of women's involvement.
The problem has been that the roles of elder and pastor have been conflated into that of a priest. Whether or not Protestant churches call their pastor a priest, they accord him varying degrees of authority.
God gives authority and gifts, and it is he who calls.
Churches just recognise that God has the right to call whoever he wishes to serve him.

This is especially true in China where people must work seven days a week, with breaks for various holidays, in order to support themselves. Men simply are unavailable and the churches cannot afford to pay anyone to pastor them or to preach.
Several churches in China were founded by a woman - Gladys Aylward.
 
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That goes into what @bbbbbbb just posted.

Where congregations have conflated "preacher" with "pastor" or "elder," then they have given that role authority over men...when it doesn't have such authority scripturally.

Preaching is prophesy, which women are clearly given the gift to perform by multiple scriptural witnesses. Some congregations limit prophesy to pastors, which is not scriptural. And even then, they don't distinguish between pastors and deacons. Pastor is barely defined in scripture, but the woman (and it will always be a woman) running the nursery during service is also a pastor, or a deacon...and she will even have delegated authority from the actual elders to direct men within the scope of her special deaconate, "Sir, if you don't have a child here, then please leave!"
Thank you!
 
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Paidiske

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I don't think "preaching" per se gets even close to theologically controversial.
You might not, but lay women who preach face almost as much abuse and hostility as ordained women.
Preaching is prophesy,
Is it always? I would not say I have a prophetic gift; I would describe preaching, as I do it, to be more teaching than prophesying.
 
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RDKirk

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You might not, but lay women who preach face almost as much abuse and hostility as ordained women.
I'm not going to argue for positions I don't hold.
Is it always? I would not say I have a prophetic gift; I would describe preaching, as I do it, to be more teaching than prophesying.
I'll reverse that then: Prophesy is preaching.
 
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