Russian media attitudes towards war on Ukraine (Orthodox-related)

[Dorothea]

Let us hear the take of the clerics (from a petition of over 200 priests) of UOC-MP, the vast majority of them Russian-speaking Ukrainians, who are right there, on the ground:

"On February 24, 2022, Russian troops invaded the territory of the sovereign Ukrainian state without declaring war. The military aggression has been going on for more than a month. Russian troops are systematically destroying military infrastructure and residential areas, civilian enterprises, schools, hospitals, theaters, and so on. The Ukrainian economy is suffering heavy losses. But we are most saddened that thousands of civilians have already died during the war. The actions of the Russian army around Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Akhtyrka, Hostomel, Vorzel and especially Mariupol and Bucha have obvious signs of the genocide against the Ukrainian people and cause indignation around the world....

We are witnessing the brutal actions of the Russian army against the Ukrainian people, which are approved by Patriarch Kirill. As pastors of the Church, and simply as Christians, we have always been, are and will always stay with our people, those who suffer and need help. We fully support the Ukrainian state authorities and the Armed Forces of Ukraine in their fight against the aggressor."

About 200 priests of the UOC-MP demand International Ecclesiastical Tribunal for Kirill - RISU

Who is telling the clerics what is happening. Are they in the middle of the war zones, seeing Russian soldiers bombing the buildings around them? Again, I don't fault our clergy. They should, of course, speak out to Ukraine being invaded. As far as the other details, they are not known at this time exactly who did what. As to the ones that have been corroborated and shown real evidence to, then of course they should be condemned.

 

[tapi]

Who is telling the clerics what is happening. Are they in the middle of the war zones, seeing Russian soldiers bombing the buildings around them? Again, I don't fault our clergy. They should, of course, speak out to Ukraine being invaded. As far as the other details, they are not known at this time exactly who did what. As to the ones that have been corroborated and shown real evidence to, then of course they should be condemned.

They literally live in these cities and villages.

 

[archer75]

Most Ukrainian citizens aren't Nazis. I never said they were, and not all of the Ukrainian government is. Some Nazis already existed there, but many of them were installed via the 2014 coup, with the assistance, as usual, of our CIA operatives.

Imo, there is more to this than Putin and the invasion. A lot more.

But the current propaganda position of the RF (see links in the OP) is that the bulk of the population are Nazis. That is what I was referring to, not claiming that you said they were.

 

[Dorothea]

They literally live in these cities and villages.

Okay, that helps. Doesn't mean everything Ukrainian army, including the Azov Battalion has done has been clean and pure. I think it's important to see this as there are no totally good guys in this, no matter what side. What the clergy think is fine. I just hope they lead their flock to love their Russian and Ukrainian brothers and sisters and not let the evil one divide them because that's what this is about, spiritually.

 

[Dorothea]

But the current propaganda position of the RF (see links in the OP) is that the bulk of the population are Nazis. That is what I was referring to, not claiming that you said they were.

I see. Well, then they're wrong.

 

[archer75]

Who is telling the clerics what is happening. Are they in the middle of the war zones, seeing Russian soldiers bombing the buildings around them? Again, I don't fault our clergy. They should, of course, speak out to Ukraine being invaded. As far as the other details, they are not known at this time exactly who did what. As to the ones that have been corroborated and shown real evidence to, then of course they should be condemned.

As @tapi said, they literally live there. They can see perfectly clearly what is going on around them, and can see that the Russian invasion is what started all this.

And there's really no reason to suspect them of being secret Russia-haters, since most of them are Russian-speaking and have stayed with the MP when they could likely have found positions with the KP if they wanted to. You didn't say this, of course, but I am just stating my thoughts here.

Again, and I don't address this specifically to you, Dot, just a few years ago we saw countless claims of how noble the UOC-MP clergy were (I am not denying this), how they didn't care about national boundaries, only wanted to be in their home church and not in some schismatic body and so on, they cared so much for their flock. Suddenly, their clear statements about what is going on need to be disregarded as either delusional or secret Nazi-statements if the Russian line is to be believed. If what the Russian line says was going on in these areas is true, why didn't these MP clergy welcome the liberation of their flock from the Nazi oppression?

 

[Dorothea]

In answer to gurney's wanting to know where I got the info about the Azov Battalion threatening Zelensky's life. It was in the video I posted. But I will type up what Scott Ritter says on this:

"Kiev's a dangerous place. It's dangerous for a couple things. It's dangerous because even though people
like me are probably telling Zelensky the same thing i'm saying because it's pretty damn obvious inmy book he has to be nervous that he is indeed target number one. People have told him you're the number one target Russians want to kill you so they got to move him around and they got to hide him. They got to do all this stuff, hence the green screen to disguise where he truly is etc. But he also has to be insulated from the ultra right-wing nationalists who've already threatened to string him up by the neck until dead. I mean they've already said we're going to hang you on the street if you ever do anything we don't want. And trust me, the day Zelensky decides that he's going to enter into this peace agreement with Russia because that day will come, they're going to try and kill him and so the Russians have to keep him alive, so i think some of the people around Zelensky are deep cover Russian security operatives whose sole job is to keep this guy alive."

 

[Dorothea]

As @tapi said, they literally live there. They can see perfectly clearly what is going on around them, and can see that the Russian invasion is what started all this.

And there's really no reason to suspect them of being secret Russia-haters, since most of them are Russian-speaking and have stayed with the MP when they could likely have found positions with the KP if they wanted to. You didn't say this, of course, but I am just stating my thoughts here.

Again, and I don't address this specifically to you, Dot, just a few years ago we saw countless claims of how noble the UOC-MP clergy were (I am not denying this), how they didn't care about national boundaries, only wanted to be in their home church and not in some schismatic body and so on, they cared so much for their flock. Suddenly, their clear statements about what is going on need to be disregarded as either delusional or secret Nazi-statements if the Russian line is to be believed. If what the Russian line says was going on in these areas is true, why didn't these MP clergy welcome the liberation of their flock from the Nazi oppression?

Good question. I don't have the answer. But what I do believe is there are no good guys in this and that all of this is dividing His Body, as I've said countless times. And I'm not talking about the clergy.

 

[archer75]

I see. Well, then they're wrong.

They are indeed wrong. I want to say that I appreciate your openness to information on this thread, and to apologize for any tone of mine that might have sounded harsh.

Now that you say that they are wrong, maybe you will consider the following, which is part of what I believe is true about this situation. I don't ask you to believe it, just to consider that I believe it. And you're talking to someone who certainly doesn't hate Russia or Russians (although it is obvious I think the leadership leaves much to be desired).

The Russian propaganda line is utterly out of touch with any remotely plausible reality (again, see the link in the OP, as well as plenty of other materials. If we believe Russia's line, then:

• the bulk of the population are Nazis bent on destroying Russia and destroying everyone who speaks Russian, at least in Ukraine (but ideally in Russia as well)
• to this Nazi end, they elected Zelensky, although he is known to be a Jew whose grandparents' siblings were murdered by the German Nazis in the 1940s
• to this Russian-hating end, they elected Zelensky, who is a Russian-speaker who openly chose to take Ukrainian lessons on being elected president, because he knew his Ukrainian was not as good as it should be to be president of Ukraine
• when Russia innocently tried to save Russian people who are citizens of Ukraine from being victims of genocide, the Ukrainian Nazis immediately turned all their firepower against their own cities purely in order to make Russia look bad
• Ukrainian Nazis have fled the country by the millions as their own Nazi bombs are destroying their own Nazi cities, again, the only goal of this is to make Russia look bad.
• Ukrainian clerics of the MP, formerly praised as loyal to the MP and not insane Ukrainian Russia-haters who now demand for the war to stop and say that it is purely a war of Russian aggression...I actually don't know the Russian line on this. I haven't seen anything that addresses this. These people were formerly held up as examples of piety and honor for not skipping out on the MP. Now they're...what? Why would these people suddenly take these positions? If it's because they're afraid of Nazis, why wouldn't they just run to the liberators now that the liberators are there? There's no way to make sense of this if you believe the Russian line.

None of this makes any sense. Not because it contradicts some one piece of evidence, but it just doesn't make any sense. That's why I believe that the Russian line is a pack of lies, because if you try to believe the Russian line, nothing makes any sense.

 

[archer75]

Good question. I don't have the answer. But what I do believe is there are no good guys in this and that all of this is dividing His Body, as I've said countless times. And I'm not talking about the clergy.

I have an answer that I believe: they didn't welcome the Russians because the Russians are the aggressors, and the clergy don't want to be killed and they don't want their flock killed. That's what makes sense to me.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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