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Rev.8:2-6, When do the Trumpets Begin???

Tigger Boy

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Rev. 8:2-6, WHEN DO THE SEVEN TRUMPETS BEGIN

Adventists recognize that the casting down of the censer indicates sudden termination of something. And, many claim that Mrs. White saw this scene in a vision. (See Early Writings, pp. 279-280) But, Mrs. White did not see that scene. If you read her comments in the given reference above , she clearly says that she saw Jesus standing before the Ark of The Covenant, not a angel standing before the Altar of Incense. E.W. view says nothing about the seven angels receiving seven trumpets (the first event in the sequence), neither does she say anything about the sounding of the trumpets in this reference.

Many seventeenth and eighteenth century Reformation writers believed the seven trumpets began with the fall of the Roman Empire around A.D. 400. William Miller too, excepted this view, so placing them in the past supported his claim of the coming of Christ in 1844.

Please give some thought to the following:

As one reads Rev. 8:2-6, the first event is of seven angels receiving seven trumpets.

Followed by an Angel having a golden censer offering incense on the Altar of Incense.

Followed by the same angel taking that censer filled with fire and hurling in on the earth.

Followed by peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake [all on the earth]

Followed by the seven angels preparing to sound their trumpets.

If you except that the trumpets began around 400 A.D. Then what does the angel ministering at the Altar of Incense mean, and what historical facts prove that it has been fulfilled, since the texts indicate that the angels prepare to sound them AFTER the angel cast it’s censer to earth?

OR, which traditional Adventists interpretation do you think makes more sense to you?
 

reddogs

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Rev. 8:2-6, WHEN DO THE SEVEN TRUMPETS BEGIN

Adventists recognize that the casting down of the censer indicates sudden termination of something. And, many claim that Mrs. White saw this scene in a vision. (See Early Writings, pp. 279-280) But, Mrs. White did not see that scene. If you read her comments in the given reference above , she clearly says that she saw Jesus standing before the Ark of The Covenant, not a angel standing before the Altar of Incense. E.W. view says nothing about the seven angels receiving seven trumpets (the first event in the sequence), neither does she say anything about the sounding of the trumpets in this reference.

Many seventeenth and eighteenth century Reformation writers believed the seven trumpets began with the fall of the Roman Empire around A.D. 400. William Miller too, excepted this view, so placing them in the past supported his claim of the coming of Christ in 1844.

Please give some thought to the following:

As one reads Rev. 8:2-6, the first event is of seven angels receiving seven trumpets.

Followed by an Angel having a golden censer offering incense on the Altar of Incense.

Followed by the same angel taking that censer filled with fire and hurling in on the earth.

Followed by peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake [all on the earth]

Followed by the seven angels preparing to sound their trumpets.

If you except that the trumpets began around 400 A.D. Then what does the angel ministering at the Altar of Incense mean, and what historical facts prove that it has been fulfilled, since the texts indicate that the angels prepare to sound them AFTER the angel cast it’s censer to earth?

OR, which traditional Adventists interpretation do you think makes more sense to you?
This is a issue which seems to be brought up more to argue incessantly with no end in its discussions, and appears to just bring about more conflict than to understand or edify as we have seen.
 
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Tigger Boy

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This is a issue which seems to be brought up more to argue incessantly with no end in its discussions, and appears to just bring about more conflict than to understand or edify as we have seen.
Morning Reddogs, hope your feeling well this Sabbath morning. I believe the understanding of Rev. 8:2-6 is revealed in the earthly sanctuary model. However, before I share my understanding of the texts, I would first like to ask three questions of you.

1. At what point in time did Jesus become mans intercessor?

2. Why two alters in the earthy sanctuary?

3. What is the meaning of this texts. (2 Thess. 2:7) ... "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."?
 
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reddogs

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Morning Reddogs, hope your feeling well this Sabbath morning. I believe the understanding of Rev. 8:2-6 is revealed in the earthly sanctuary model. However, before I share my understanding of the texts, I would first like to ask three questions of you.

1. At what point in time did Jesus become mans intercessor?

2. Why two alters in the earthy sanctuary?

3. What is the meaning of this texts. (2 Thess. 2:7) ... "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."?
I think you can find the answers on these discusssions..



 
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Tigger Boy

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Reddogs appreciate the materials you sent. Will read them all over, and I'm sure as you know, will most likely have some comments to share.

In the mean while, I'll pass along what I understand the passage means. Please share your thoughts as well. Blessings

Rev. 8:2-6, explanation
Mediation is the action of “stepping between” God’s wrath and sinful man. Adam and Eve were to be killed, “ the very day” they ate the forbidden fruit. However, that did not happen. Why? Because Jesus stepped in as Mediator and their execution and that of all fallen mankind has been stayed because Jesus has been mediating ever since and will continue until He is taken out of the way by the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

John 3:16, “ For God so loved the world… “, here in this texts we can see that it applies to more than us as individuals but on a larger scale it is a corporate declaration, ”the whole world.”

There were two altars in the earthly sanctuary, the brazen altar in the courtyard and the altar of incense before the vail within the Holy Place. Sin offerings were made each day by the priest at the Altar of Incense, this offering was called the “daily or continual” and was designed to teach Israel that it was only through the “daily” intercession of Jesus, that man could live without being destroyed by the wrath of god. It provide corporate atonement for the whole nation of Israel.

There are two differences between the daily at the altar of incense and the individual sin offerings at the brazen altar. The daily pointed back to what Jesus had done, when He stepped between the wrath of God and guilty man. while the sin offering pointed to an “pointed time” when Jesus would die for the sins of the world, corporately.

The second contrast between those two offerings was the daily was a corporate offering, whereas, the corporate sins of Israel were transferred into the sanctuary, While individual sins were transferred onto the horns of the brazen altar in the courtyard.

The sanctuary teaches these two very profound points, Jesus intercedes on two levels, corporate and individual. Only with this understanding can Rev. 8:2-6 be understood.

The events in Rev. 8:2-6 reveal that at some point in time the angel who is ministering before the altar of incense in the heavenly sanctuary which is the pattern for the earthly will cease offering incense, therefore, corporate mediation in behalf of the world will come to an end. This is the point in time when Jesus is taken out of the way by order of the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

A loving God does not pull surprises on His creation but has always warned us in advance of His forth coming wrath. Therefore, He will inform the inhabitants on earth that corporate intercession has ended, and His wrath will be forthcoming. Since we can not see into heaven to witness the termination of the daily, God has tied its termination with four physical events that shall be witnessed by all of mankind at the same time. They will happen in the exact order given within prophecy,

Peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lighting and a earthquake. These will be world wide events, as everyone must be put on alert.

Afterward, since corporate mediation has ended God’s full cup of wrath will be poured out upon the earth. However, only a third of the cup will be poured out during the seven trumpet judgement, as indicated in Rev.8: 6, through chapter 9. The fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) is the release of Satan and his angles from the abyss/spirit realm, to appear in bodily form upon the earth according to God’s timing and purposes. (2 These. 2:1-4)

(Rev. 13: 11-18) Is another prophecy pointing to Satan’s activity when correctly understood. The prophecy inform us He comes out of the earth. (Rev. 12: 1-10, describes Satan and his angles being cast out of heaven and into the earth. ) We are informed he/satan looks like the Lamb/Jesus, because Satan will be impersonating Jesus, “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 These. 2:4)

The good news is that during the trumpet judgments individual salvation is still available to all. The seventh trumpet marks the end of God’s offer of salvation. The seven last plaques/ bowl judgements are then poured out upon the earth but only directed at those who have received the mark of the beats (Satan’s) they receive the other two thirds of the wrath remaining in God’s cup.

At the end of the seven plagues Jesus shall return for the saints. Hallelujah!
 
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reddogs

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Reddogs appreciate the materials you sent. Will read them all over, and I'm sure as you know, will most likely have some comments to share.

In the mean while, I'll pass along what I understand the passage means. Please share your thoughts as well. Blessings

Rev. 8:2-6, explanation
Mediation is the action of “stepping between” God’s wrath and sinful man. Adam and Eve were to be killed, “ the very day” they ate the forbidden fruit. However, that did not happen. Why? Because Jesus stepped in as Mediator and their execution and that of all fallen mankind has been stayed because Jesus has been mediating ever since and will continue until He is taken out of the way by the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

John 3:16, “ For God so loved the world… “, here in this texts we can see that it applies to more than us as individuals but on a larger scale it is a corporate declaration, ”the whole world.”

There were two altars in the earthly sanctuary, the brazen altar in the courtyard and the altar of incense before the vail within the Holy Place. Sin offerings were made each day by the priest at the Altar of Incense, this offering was called the “daily or continual” and was designed to teach Israel that it was only through the “daily” intercession of Jesus, that man could live without being destroyed by the wrath of god. It provide corporate atonement for the whole nation of Israel.

There are two differences between the daily at the altar of incense and the individual sin offerings at the brazen altar. The daily pointed back to what Jesus had done, when He stepped between the wrath of God and guilty man. while the sin offering pointed to an “pointed time” when Jesus would die for the sins of the world, corporately.

The second contrast between those two offerings was the daily was a corporate offering, whereas, the corporate sins of Israel were transferred into the sanctuary, While individual sins were transferred onto the horns of the brazen altar in the courtyard.

The sanctuary teaches these two very profound points, Jesus intercedes on two levels, corporate and individual. Only with this understanding can Rev. 8:2-6 be understood.

The events in Rev. 8:2-6 reveal that at some point in time the angel who is ministering before the altar of incense in the heavenly sanctuary which is the pattern for the earthly will cease offering incense, therefore, corporate mediation in behalf of the world will come to an end. This is the point in time when Jesus is taken out of the way by order of the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

A loving God does not pull surprises on His creation but has always warned us in advance of His forth coming wrath. Therefore, He will inform the inhabitants on earth that corporate intercession has ended, and His wrath will be forthcoming. Since we can not see into heaven to witness the termination of the daily, God has tied its termination with four physical events that shall be witnessed by all of mankind at the same time. They will happen in the exact order given within prophecy,

Peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lighting and a earthquake. These will be world wide events, as everyone must be put on alert.

Afterward, since corporate mediation has ended God’s full cup of wrath will be poured out upon the earth. However, only a third of the cup will be poured out during the seven trumpet judgement, as indicated in Rev.8: 6, through chapter 9. The fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) is the release of Satan and his angles from the abyss/spirit realm, to appear in bodily form upon the earth according to God’s timing and purposes. (2 These. 2:1-4)

(Rev. 13: 11-18) Is another prophecy pointing to Satan’s activity when correctly understood. The prophecy inform us He comes out of the earth. (Rev. 12: 1-10, describes Satan and his angles being cast out of heaven and into the earth. ) We are informed he/satan looks like the Lamb/Jesus, because Satan will be impersonating Jesus, “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 These. 2:4)

The good news is that during the trumpet judgments individual salvation is still available to all. The seventh trumpet marks the end of God’s offer of salvation. The seven last plaques/ bowl judgements are then poured out upon the earth but only directed at those who have received the mark of the beats (Satan’s) they receive the other two thirds of the wrath remaining in God’s cup.

At the end of the seven plagues Jesus shall return for the saints. Hallelujah!
Here is a good video on that..
 
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Tigger Boy

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Reddogs, in response to the video you sent.

Vengeance
There is an important distinction between vengeance and revenge. Vengeance is a righteous process that lawfully achieves justice. When a disinterested party, who has no relationship with either a perpetrator of a crime (predator) or a victim of that crime, imposes a sentence on the predator on behalf of the victim, the disinterested party exercises vengeance. Revenge, on the other hand, is another word for retaliation. When an interested party, who has a relationship with the victim of a crime, imposes a sentence on a predator which the party deems appropriate, the interested party exacts revenge. The problem with revenge is that justice is often ignored to satisfy passion. In other words, the person exercising revenge will often go beyond the demands of justice and also become a predator.

When God implements justice, He seeks two objectives. The first objective is the restoration of the victim; the second objective is the punishment of the predator. The seven last plagues must be understood within the context of restitution. The seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. Jesus will lawfully extract restitution from the wicked during the seven last plagues because there will be no justice for God’s people during the Great Tribulation. The wicked will treat God’s saints with contempt and hatred. God’s people will have their possessions taken from them, and ultimately, many will die because of their loyalty to Jesus and their determination to obey the eternal gospel. De- mons will keep the wicked enraged at God’s saints. The wicked will impose an unimaginable level of cruelty and hardship on God’s people and there will be no justice for God’s despised people. Of course, the watchful eye of Jesus will not miss a single predatory act. Recording angels will capture every thought, word, and deed because Jesus will see that justice is served at the appointed time. At the end of the day, a God of love will repay the wicked with a double measure of the suffering they imposed on His saints. The apostle Paul was well acquainted with persecution and He wrote, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.”9 We should never forget these words: “I will repay, says the Lord.”

We have examined the difference between vengeance and revenge because the seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. During the trumpet judgements, which are redemptive, the living shall be judged during desperate circumstances which will separate the people of Earth into two groups. The sheep will embrace the testimony of the 144,000/servant prophets and worship the Creator and love one another. The goats will rebel against God’s authority and submit to Babylon’s authority out of cowardice. The contest between God’s authority and Babylon’s authority will be sharp and distinct. At first, the wicked will do whatever it takes to save themselves from suffering, by receiving the mark in order to buy and sell, but they will eventually discover that the path of least resistance leads to slavery. Their master will be the devil. There will be no justice for God’s saints during the Great Tribulation, so Jesus Himself will execute vengeance on the wicked during the final seventy days of the Great Tribulation. Jesus will repay the wicked for their predatory behavior. The third angles message (Rev. 14:9,10) warns against receiving the mark/666 for all who do shall receive God’s wrath in full strength. That wrath is contained in the seven last plagues/bowl judgement.

With regard to the seven last plagues as stated above, this is in agreement with our teaching as it is explained on pg. 839 SDA Bible commentary, vol. 7. However, this is not what is being taught in the video you sent for my viewing. Greg Cavanah (presenter) believes salvation is still available during the seven last plagues.There are other new insights presented therein, which I have never heard before. Much of which I disagree as well. However, which is most surprising is I’ve been trying to share new insights on this platform and you and the rest have been very, very, resistant to anything new. Why is that?
 
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reddogs

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Reddogs, in response to the video you sent.

Vengeance
There is an important distinction between vengeance and revenge. Vengeance is a righteous process that lawfully achieves justice. When a disinterested party, who has no relationship with either a perpetrator of a crime (predator) or a victim of that crime, imposes a sentence on the predator on behalf of the victim, the disinterested party exercises vengeance. Revenge, on the other hand, is another word for retaliation. When an interested party, who has a relationship with the victim of a crime, imposes a sentence on a predator which the party deems appropriate, the interested party exacts revenge. The problem with revenge is that justice is often ignored to satisfy passion. In other words, the person exercising revenge will often go beyond the demands of justice and also become a predator.

When God implements justice, He seeks two objectives. The first objective is the restoration of the victim; the second objective is the punishment of the predator. The seven last plagues must be understood within the context of restitution. The seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. Jesus will lawfully extract restitution from the wicked during the seven last plagues because there will be no justice for God’s people during the Great Tribulation. The wicked will treat God’s saints with contempt and hatred. God’s people will have their possessions taken from them, and ultimately, many will die because of their loyalty to Jesus and their determination to obey the eternal gospel. De- mons will keep the wicked enraged at God’s saints. The wicked will impose an unimaginable level of cruelty and hardship on God’s people and there will be no justice for God’s despised people. Of course, the watchful eye of Jesus will not miss a single predatory act. Recording angels will capture every thought, word, and deed because Jesus will see that justice is served at the appointed time. At the end of the day, a God of love will repay the wicked with a double measure of the suffering they imposed on His saints. The apostle Paul was well acquainted with persecution and He wrote, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.”9 We should never forget these words: “I will repay, says the Lord.”

We have examined the difference between vengeance and revenge because the seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. During the trumpet judgements, which are redemptive, the living shall be judged during desperate circumstances which will separate the people of Earth into two groups. The sheep will embrace the testimony of the 144,000/servant prophets and worship the Creator and love one another. The goats will rebel against God’s authority and submit to Babylon’s authority out of cowardice. The contest between God’s authority and Babylon’s authority will be sharp and distinct. At first, the wicked will do whatever it takes to save themselves from suffering, by receiving the mark in order to buy and sell, but they will eventually discover that the path of least resistance leads to slavery. Their master will be the devil. There will be no justice for God’s saints during the Great Tribulation, so Jesus Himself will execute vengeance on the wicked during the final seventy days of the Great Tribulation. Jesus will repay the wicked for their predatory behavior. The third angles message (Rev. 14:9,10) warns against receiving the mark/666 for all who do shall receive God’s wrath in full strength. That wrath is contained in the seven last plagues/bowl judgement.

With regard to the seven last plagues as stated above, this is in agreement with our teaching as it is explained on pg. 839 SDA Bible commentary, vol. 7. However, this is not what is being taught in the video you sent for my viewing. Greg Cavanah (presenter) believes salvation is still available during the seven last plagues.There are other new insights presented therein, which I have never heard before. Much of which I disagree as well. However, which is most surprising is I’ve been trying to share new insights on this platform and you and the rest have been very, very, resistant to anything new. Why is that?
We've had many 'brethren' that have come with 'new light' as I tried to point out to you, and it tends to be more of private interpretation and just more than not of arguing and cause confusion than any real or better understanding. We need to come to believers with a right spirit of humbleness and helpfulness, and to share truth with each other, not bitter divisiveness and discord.

Philippians 2:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
 
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William Miller too
William Miller, J. Litch and others were in error on this point, and even accepted that the 7 last plagues and 7 trumpets were simultaneously occuring (* which is incorrect even according to scripture and GC). No Seventh-day Adventist, that I am aware of believes this today.

Miller:

“... If I have erred, I hope others may see where, and shun the danger. I have no desire to mislead any, but my principle aim is to excite others more able then myself to investigate the subject. The time is at hand that will try my views on this point, and if it should prove different from what I expect, and from what I do now most sincerely believe; then will I if my life is preserved be willing, I hope, to confess my folly to all who may read these pages; I have bad great distrust of myself; but the word of God will be accomplished, not one jot or tittle of his word will fail. ...” - Evidences From Scripture And History Of The Second Coming Of Christ About The Year A.D. 1843, And His Personal Reign Of 1000 Years, Introduction (1833), page 6.2 - Evidences from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years

* error

“... When the sixth angel pours out his vial on the great river Euphrates, or the Ottoman empire, it will be dried up. This, according to former calculations, will take place about 1840. The way is now prepared for the battle of Armageddon, or the great battle of that great day of God Almighty. I have already given my opinion of this event. (See Dan. xii. 1, and the remarks on it, Chap. III.) When the sixth angel has sounded, the sixth vial has been poured out, and the second woe is ended, then the third woe comes quickly; how quickly, time must decide. {1838 JoL, PSC 189.1} ...” - The Probability Of The Second Coming Of Christ About A.D. 1843 (1838), Chapter VII (7), page 189.1 - The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843
 
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Many seventeenth and eighteenth century Reformation writers believed the seven trumpets began with the fall of the Roman Empire around A.D. 400.
You are right, and if you read those commentarties as I have, they all deviate tremendously from scripture, and actual History (like Gibbons error), and go off on phantastical meanderings of private interpretation. There are many conflations of natural and spiritual, and unwarranted meanings, simply because of the times they were in.
 
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Pioneer Authors, Title Section On Josiah Litch, E. G. White. CD-ROM, 2009 -

“Josiah Litch (1809-1886). Miller preacher. A Methodist minister, Litch read William Miller's Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ in 1838 and accepted that Christ would return about the year 1843. Soon afterward he wrote a synopsis of Miller's views entitled The Midnight Cry. Later in 1838 Litch wrote The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843 in which he not only accepted the 1843 date but also predicted that the Ottoman Empire would collapse in August 1840. Turkey's response to an ultimatum from European powers on August 11, 1840, was subsequently regarded by Millerites as a fulfillment of the prophecy and evidence of the truth of their interpretative system.​
In 1841 Litch took a leave of absence from the Methodist ministry to preach the second coming of Christ full time. It was about this time that he influenced Charles Fitch to accept the Millerite message. He also argued in Address to the Clergy (1841) that a judgment would take place before the second advent, a view that Sabbatarian Adventists would develop into their understanding of the investigative judgment. The following year Litch organized the first Millerite camp meeting at Stanstead in eastern Canada in June 1842. In 1842 and 1843 he worked in Philadelphia and the surrounding area establishing a paper entitled The Philadelphia Alarm. While there Litch opposed the conditionalist views of George Storrs, publishing The Anti-Annihilationist briefly in 1844. Litch also strongly objected to the seventh-month movement that emphasized the return of Christ on Oct. 22, 1844. By October he had changed his mind and was the last major Millerite leader to accept the date.​
After the Great Disappointment Litch participated in the Mutual Conference of Adventists that occurred in Albany, New York, in 1845. Although Litch rejected the "shut door" that probation had been closed on Oct. 22, 1844, he continued to remain interested in Bible prophecy. He concluded in 1848 that the Jews would return to Palestine, he gradually moved toward a futurist interpretation of prophecy represented in his later publication A Complete Harmony of Daniel and the Apocalypse (1873). Litch also joined the American Evangelical Adventist Conference in 1848, and later debated the Seventh-day Adventist evangelist Daniel T. Bourdeau in 1880. ...”​

Josiah Litch did not care to properly identify the symbols in Bible prophecy, but simply relied upon the conjectures of other commentators, and simply assumed their positions to be correct, and then based his continued calculations on such:

“… There is a very general agreement at the present day, among prophetic expositors, that the subject of this prophecy is Mohammedism. I shall not, therefore, enter into a particular explanation of the various figures used in the prophecy, but take it for granted that those who thus apply it are correct, and confine myself principally to the examination of the prophetic periods mentioned in the chapter, and endeavor to show their fulfilment. If this can be done, it is in itself the strongest evidence that a right application is made of the prophecy, when it is applied to Mohammedism. {1841 JoL, APEC 113.1} …” - An Address To The Public, And Especially The Clergy (1841), Section VI (6), Encouragement For Studying The Book Of Revelation, pages 111.1 – 111.2 & The Angel Of The Bottomless Pit, pages 112.1 – 115.1 & Sounding Of The Sixth Angel, pages 115.2 – 117.2 & Accomplishment Of The Foregoing Calculations, pages 117.3 – 125.2; page 113.1 - An Address to the Public, and Especially the Clergy

Josiah Litch’s original prediction, was “some time in the month of August”, and did not calculate an exact date before his sought after event. Later, he would say “August 11th”, and yet further it would be changed to August 15th.

“… But when will this power be overthrown? According to the calculations already made, that the five months ended 1449, the hour, fifteen days, the day, one year, the month, thirty years, and the year, three hundred and sixty years; in all, three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days, will end in A. D. 1840, some time in the month of August. The prophecy is the most remarkable and definite, (even descending to the days) of any in the Bible, relating to these great events. It is as singular as the record [158] of the time when the empire rose. The facts are now before the reader, and he must make what disposition of them he thinks best. The sixth woe yet continues, and will till the great river Euphrates is dried up, and the seventh trumpet sounds. {1838 JoL, PSC 157.1} …” - The Probability Of The Second Coming Of Christ About A.D. 1843 (1838), Chapter VI (6), Section I (1), pages 146.1 – 159.2 & Chapter VI (6), Section II (2), pages 159.3 – 171.3; page 157.1 - The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843

Josiah Litch, specifically taught that the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13 - 11:14), coincided at the same time as the 6th Plague (Vial of the Wrath of God), and that it was already occurring in AD 1840’s! No one in the present Seventh-day Adventist movement accepts this idea, not even Uriah Smith or E.G.W of old.
“... When the sixth angel pours out his vial on the great river Euphrates, or the Ottoman empire, it will be dried up. This, according to former calculations, will take place about 1840. The way is now prepared for the battle of Armageddon, or the great battle of that great day of God Almighty. I have already given my opinion of this event. (See Dan. xii. 1, and the remarks on it, Chap. III.) When the sixth angel has sounded, the sixth vial has been poured out, and the second woe is ended, then the third woe comes quickly; how quickly, time must decide. {1838 JoL, PSC 189.1} ...” - The Probability Of The Second Coming Of Christ About A.D. 1843 (1838), Chapter VII (7), page 189.1 - The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843

Josiah Litch taught a “literal” drying up of the natural river called Euphrates in the middle east, so that a physical attack could take place on Jerusalem. This never occurred. The 6th Vial (God’s wrath) hasn’t yet (AD 2024) occurred.

“... "The great river Euphrates" will be as literally dried up to make way for the kings of the eastern world to come up to Jerusalem and Palestine to that battle, as the same river was dried up before Cyrus, when he entered and took the city of Babylon; or as the Red Sea and river Jordan were dried up to make a highway for Israel through their bed. The effects of the sixth vial will be, first, to dry up the waters of the river, to make a highway; and, secondly, to send forth the spirits of devils to deceive, by miracles, the kings of the whole earth, and their armies, and gather them. {1842 JoL, PREX1 183.1} ...” - Prophetic Expositions Volume 1 (1842), Chapter VI (6), The Seven Last Plagues, The Vials And Their Effects, pages 183.2 - Prophetic Expositions, vol. 1

It is the standard Jesuit futurism nonsense given today.

Josiah Litch stated that the way he privately interpreted the prophecy, in the amount of Years, Months, Days and Hours, that it took place “four days after” his original specific prediction of the 11th of August. He, and others, also changed the way in which the prophecy was to be fulfilled:

“... And well Mehemet knew that a war once begun on that question, would never end until Turkey was in ruins. That must be the result of the war. Finally, it is a very striking fulfilment of the calculation; for that decision was but four days after the 11th of August, the period fixed for the termination or the prophecy. The like singular accuracy in the fulfilment of a prophetic period cannot be found in history. Will men lay it to heart? J. LITCH. ...” - Signs of the Times, Vol. I, No. 15., by Joshua V. Himes; Boston, November 1, 1840; page 118.1, citing Josiah Litch - Signs of the Times [Himes], vol. 1
Miller had slightly differing dates at the first, but then moved closer to J. Litch and others later.
 
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GentleGospeller

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William Miller was a humble man, and stood to be corrected if he needed to be, and was not so over proud of his theological points as to never be willing to correct where necessary.

“... If I have erred, I hope others may see where, and shun the danger. I have no desire to mislead any, but my principle aim is to excite others more able then myself to investigate the subject. The time is at hand that will try my views on this point, and if it should prove different from what I expect, and from what I do now most sincerely believe; then will I if my life is preserved be willing, I hope, to confess my folly to all who may read these pages; I have bad great distrust of myself; but the word of God will be accomplished, not one jot or tittle of his word will fail. ...” - Evidences From Scripture And History Of The Second Coming Of Christ About The Year A.D. 1843, And His Personal Reign Of 1000 Years, Introduction (1833), page 6.2 - Evidences from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years

William Miller, at first had differing dates than that of Josiah Litch for what he thought was the end of the 6th Trumper, or 2nd Woe.
“... CHAPTER V​
We will now examine, the 9th chapter of Rev. and see what we learn by the last three trumpets, and the three woes. The 1st and 2nd verses describe the Mahometan Religion, which is represented as coming from the bottomless pit, and is compared to the smoke of a great furnace; "And the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit." That is, the gospel and its doctrines, became dark in the minds of men; by reason of the Mahometan errors. "And there came out of the smoke Locusts upon the earth;" that is, there arose a nation out of the Mahometan nations, which should be a heavy judgement to the Roman government, here called "Earth," the locusts denoting the Ottoman or present Turkish power. This nation was first formed by the union of soldiers, or mercenaries, that had served in the armies of contending princes, and united under one leader Ottoman, composed of four different nations, as Saracens, Turks, Arabs, and Tartars, afterwards in this chapter called the four Angels, or Messengers of God to punish the Antichristian beast. This power was first established in Bythynia, near, or on the head-waters of the Euphrates, in the year A. D. 1298, where it was confined, or made but little progress in subjecting the Antichristian kingdom, for five months, or 150 years, until it conquered Constantinople A. D. 1453; which ended the eastern empire. "And it was commanded them, that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men that have not the seal of God in their foreheads.“ …”​
“… It is a fact, here worthy of notice, that the Turks did not persecute the church of Christ, to that degree that the Romish church did; which gave rise to a saying among the eastern christians, "That they would rather see the Turkish turban on the throne of Constantinople, than the Pope's tiara." By grass and green things, I understand the children of God; and by those men who have not the seal of God, I understand Papists. "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months;" which is 150 years, or five times 30, Daniel's mode of reckoning time, whom John has followed. From the 7th to the 11th verses inclusive, John has described the Turkish army, their manner of fighting, together with the qualities and name of their leader. "One woe is past: and, behold there cometh two woes more hereafter." In A. D. 1448, these four angels were let loose, and the 5th trumpet, & the first woe ended, and the sixth trumpet, and the second woe began. {1833 WiM, ESH 41.1}​
"And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, loose the four angels which are bound in the river Euphrates." Waters, we are to understand people; see [42] Rev. 17:15. By the riser Euphrates, I therefore understand the same Turkish power, which power rose up in the countries bordering upon this river. The four angels, are the four different nations of which the Ottomans were composed. Their armies were let loose, or sent out as a scourge upon the earth, or Antichristian church, and with great propriety called angels let loose, because they had been bound act to kill, (not to destroy) but to torment them five months: but were now about to destroy the eastern empire. "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.“ …”​

“… That the time here given, must mean some definite time is very evident, or why has the prophet given so many different periods, and all combined, when one number would have answered for an indefinite period? For an hour, 15 days, and a day, one year, and a month, 30 years, and a year, 360 years; making in all 391 years 15 days; which added to A. D. 1448 the year that the Turks sent out a large army to subdue Constantinople, will bring us down to 1839, when the sixth trumpet will cease to sound, and the second woe be completed. "And the number of the army of horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand; and I heard the number of them." This army is equivalent to the four angels, when they were let loose, and two hundred thousand thousand, is 200,000 twice told or repeated; making 400,000. This agrees with the history of the taking of Constantinople. "After a long siege Mahomet II, took Constantinople in 1453," having an army of 400,000 and almost all of them horsemen. "And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstones and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire, and smoke, and brimstone." We are in this passage informed that their army would consist of horses principally, and their weapons of warfare would be firearms, guns and gunpowder being exactly described. And it is a well authenticated fact, that gunpowder was invented but a short time before the taking of Constantinople, cannon having been first used in the siege and capture of that place. See Dr. Gill, on this passage, who says, "that one cannon was used at the siege of Constantinople that employed 70 yoke of oxen to draw it. {1833 WiM, ESH 41.2}​
The 18 & 19 verses are a further description of the mode of warfare. The 20 & 21 verses show on whom these plagues were sent, viz. those who "worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk. …”​
“… Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, not of their fornication, nor of their thefts." This description applies exactly to the Antichristian church or papal Rome; for they worship the things mentioned in the above texts, they being also the man which were one third to be slain, under this trumpet and woe, for it is supposed that the Ottoman power conquered one third of the Roman government, when the eastern empire fell into their hands. {1833 WiM, ESH 42.1}​
Then if this explanation be correct, the sixth trumpet will cease [43] sounding in the year A. D. 1839, and the seventh trumpet will begin to sound. "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath delivered to his servants the prophets." "And the second woe is past: and behold the third woe cometh quickly." Rev. 11:14 15. "And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices is heaven saying, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever." The 16th and 17th verses represent the four and twenty elders worshiping God, and giving thanks, because he had taken to himself his great power, and had reigned. The 18th verse of the 11th chapter, describes what shall be done when the seventh trumpet shall begin to sound. "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants, the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great, and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth." The reader will now see, that he is again brought down, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound, to the finishing of the mystery of God; to the fulfilment of all the prophecies; to the time when our Lord and his Christ should take the kingdom, and reign forever and ever; to the great day of his wrath; to the resurrection of the dead, their judgement, the rewards of the prophets, saints and all those that fear the name of the Lord both small and great; and the final destruction of the wicked from the earth. {1833 WiM, ESH 42.2} ...” - Evidences From Scripture And History Of The Second Coming Of Christ About The Year A.D. 1843, And His Personal Reign Of 1000 Years, Chapter V (5) (1833), pages 41.1 – 42.2 - Signs of the Times and Expositor of Prophecy [Himes], vol. 2

William Miller also originally taught that the “seventh and last vial of God’s wrath will be poured into the air about the year 1840”, similar to that of Josiah Litch. No present-day Seventh-day Adventist believes what William Miller or Josiah Litch taught about the Seven Last Plagues, or Seven Vials of God’s Wrath. They have not yet been poured out, and this even according to sister Ellen G White, in the book “The Great Controversy” itself (see pages 627.2 - 644.2) - The Great Controversy

“… "And the seventh angel poured his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne, saying, It is done." The seventh and last vial of God's wrath will be poured into the air about the year 1840, if my former calculations are correct, when this judgment will have a quick and rapid circulation over the whole globe. … {1842 WiM, MWV2 227.2} ...” - Miller's Works, Volume 2, (1842) Evidence From Scripture And History Of The Second Coming Of Christ About The Year 1843, Lecture 15: The Seven Last Plagues, Or Seven Vials. Pages 225.1, 227.2 - Miller’s Works, vol. 2. Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ about the Year
 
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GentleGospeller

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The late (deceased, AD 2017) author & historian (Mr.) Heidi Heiks, as conclusively shown, by original historical documentation, citation, & quotation, that Josiah Litch’s prediction, and dates, are incorrect in his several books (Source Book, Answers To Objections, &c), including one (Satan’s Counterfeit Prophecy) dedicated to the subject of the material under consideration. His now defunct website & materials may be seen at the Wayback Machine (Internet Archive) - The Source by Heidi Heiks - Home Page

For instance:

Why wait from AD 623 unto AD 1299 to begin the 150 (“five months”) so called years? Why begin with Othman, when there were other Caliphs warring before him, like Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman, Ali, Abd al'Malik, etc., conquering the Levant. Why arbitrarily cram both ‘time prophecies’ together, back to back?

Why did Josiah Litch and others forget to calculate the additional days (10) of the change between calendars (Julien to Gregorian)? Why change the conclusion from the “11th” to the “15th” of August?

Why did they at first predict the entire overthrow of Turkey, and later changed this to some ‘tutelage’ or treaty signage?

Why did Josiah Litch later abandon all his own exposition, and become a futurist, even later attacking (debating) Seventh-day Adventists? Why did he just accept others exposition on the symbols?

Why does no one accept Josiah Litch’s (etal.) understanding that the 6th Trumpet, and 6th Plague (Vial) were happening simultaneously back in the AD 1840’s, today?

Prescott and Spicer:
“I notice that in the issue of the Signs for Nov.21, you have let loose the Turk--and some other things besides. I had known for some time that the date, August 11, 1840, would not stand examination. Two years ago we presented full information on this at the Fall Council, but nothing has been done and in the meantime our books and publications are repeating the old unwarranted statements ...​
“If the Emperor John, who died in 1448, 'never forgot that he was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire,' how can we assert that the Byzantine Empire did not become subject to Turkey until 1449?” (W.W. Prescott letter)​

W. A Spicer (Nov. 30, 1914):

“I will also enclose some material on the dates of the prophetic periods of Rev. 9. Some time ago, Professor Prescott and I went to the Library of Congress. He looked up the history of Pachymeris, translated into Latin by Possinus. It is from this book that Gibbon got his date, July 27, 1299. 1 looked up Von Hammer, who is the heaviest German author on Ottoman history, and it is clear that Gibbon made an error which Von Hammer and others have corrected. The way Gibbon arrived at his mistake is easily seen by looking at the Possinus translation of Pachymeris. Gibbon saw July 27 at the opening of chapter 25, and then over in the chronological tables given by Possinus he saw the date 1299. Combining these he got July 27, 1299. But he failed to note that the chapter began with July 27, but then went back and dealt with earlier events. These earlier events were the events of 1299. [Thus the 1299 date in the table given by Possinus.] It was not until 1301 that the battle of July 27 took place.​
“About this time Professor Benson received documents showing conclusively that the ultimatum of the Powers was not delivered to the Pasha of Egypt on Aug. 11, 1840. Then we began to look the thing up a bit, and presented some of these features to the recent council. You may well understand that the brethren had to sit up and take notice. It is remarkable how loath people are to look at facts, or to correct anything.”​

Gerhard Pfandl, writes succinctly on the several issues of Josiah Litch’s predictions & dates:

“... Heidi Heiks in his book Satan’s Counterfeit Prophecy has assembled a large amount of historical material showing that the traditional interpretation of the fifth and sixth trumpets in Revelation 9 is exegetically and historically not defensible. The assumed dates for the beginning and ending of the 150 and 391 years are not confirmed by historical events. For example, the Battle of Bapheus, which for Litch was the beginning date of the 150 years, did not take place on July 27, 1299, as Litch assumed, but three years later on July 27, 1302.13 At the 1919 Bible Conference, a committee concluded that it could not begin the 150 years on July 27, 1299, because “the date itself could not be established.”14 Furthermore, Litch did not take note of the 10 days that were deleted when the Julian calendar was changed to the Gregorian calendar in 1582. Thus, the date August 11, 1840, does not fit the prophecy. ...​
... 13. Heidi Heiks, Satan’s Counterfeit Prophecy (Ringgold, Ga.: Teach Services Inc. 2013), 90.​
14. Transcript of the 1919 Bible Conference of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, July 17, 1919 (General Conference Archives, Silver Spring, Md.), 50. ...” - Gerhard Pfandl - The Seven Trumpets in Adventism
 
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Tigger Boy

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The 7 Trumpets began in AD 31 (Download free Powerpoint here, not PDF, IA messes up formatting). - The Seven Trumpets Of Revelation - Revelation 8 vs 2 through 11 vs 19 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
GG, appreciate your response. Not much interest in this topic as you can tell. Have a few questions to ask of you. Hope you don't mind. Like to better understand the mind set of those whom I carry on dialogue with.

Are you a current Adventist, or left the faith?

I studied my way into the Adventist faith at 33, will be 77 in Sept. I believe we are on solid ground with regards to our doctrines, but our "historic" interpretation of Dan. & Rev., is unbiblical.

What is your position on these two issues?
Do you think the trumpet judgements started in AD 31?
 
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GentleGospeller

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GG, appreciate your response. Not much interest in this topic as you can tell. Have a few questions to ask of you. Hope you don't mind. Like to better understand the mind set of those whom I carry on dialogue with.

Are you a current Adventist, or left the faith?

I studied my way into the Adventist faith at 33, will be 77 in Sept. I believe we are on solid ground with regards to our doctrines, but our "historic" interpretation of Dan. & Rev., is unbiblical.

What is your position on these two issues?
Do you think the trumpet judgements started in AD 31?
No worries Tigger Boy. I noticed that not many are interested, but I know why. They are mostly tired of confrontation, argumentation over these matters and see little fruit from it, and have probably gotten tired of reading at least 7 interpretations, and most do not agree with the primary one, but have nothing better to hold to, though some like Stephen Bohr's (Secrets Unsealed). Others simply cling to a few unclear words only given once in GC but exist nowhere in the Spirit of Prophecy, and they are really adamant in a confused attempt to 'defend' what they think is infallible in GC (hint, it isn't and even sister White altered the very text in consideration, between 1888 and 1911 ed.)

I am a present (since 2008) Seventh-day Adventist. Yes.

I find the historic understanding to be accurate in the main, but the details of the Trumpets as given by pioneers is incorrect and God has given to me the answer in prayer and long study. See the powerpoint. It is most detailed. Sister White gave the details of the trumpets though she herself did not know it as such. It is in GC, etc. I also see doctrine and the historic understanding going hand in hand, ie who the antichrist is (antichristos, vicarius christi), investigative judgment, Lord's goat = Jesus, scapegoat = satan, etc.

Yes, the trumpets began in AD 31, which fit the parallels in the 7 Churches and 7 Seals.

You can see the 7 Seals summarized here, though it's primary focus is the 7th Seal itself - 7th SEALed In Powerpoint : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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