Regeneration preceeds faith

[Foghorn]

How do we know regeneration precedes faith? Because God says so.

"everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", 1 John 5:1
Simply put, those who are not yet born of God cannot believe.

I know the flesh and the carnal minded christian has a problem with this biblical truth, but hey, truth is truth.


John 6:63,65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father."


This is the command Jesus said to the disciples, And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt 4:19.

This command of Jesus, "Follow Me," He still speaks. To the elect.

 

[Foghorn]

1John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. (NAS)

"is born of God" is perfect tense, which is a completed past action with enduring effects into the present.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (KJV)

"is born of God" is perfect tense, which is a completed past action with enduring effects into the present.


1John 5:1 Everyone who believesa that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. (NIV)

"is born of God" is perfect tense, which is a completed past action with enduring effects into the present.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do we know regeneration precedes faith? Because God says so.

Actually, neither God nor the apostle John said that.

"everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", 1 John 5:1
Simply put, those who are not yet born of God cannot believe.

Your statement is simply eisgesis of the text. It doesn't even close to saying that. Or meaning that.

In fact, all it says is that those presently believing (present participle) have been born of God. Are you aware of the grammar rules regarding present participles? Maybe not. They occur at the same time as the action of the main verb. Which is: have been born again.

If John had wanted to make a statement regarding one preceding the other, he would have used a different tense participle, like the perfect participle, which almost always indicates an action that occurs prior to that of the main verb.

All John was saying is that those believing have been born again. There is nothing in the grammar to force his words to mean that one occurs before the other. From John's perspective, they occur together; simultaneously.

The only passage I'm aware of that actually indicates which logically occurs first is found in Eph 2.

v.5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The parenthetical phrase clarifies what Paul meant by "made us alive". iow he was equating being made alive with being saved. They go together. We cannot have either one with the other at the same time. There is no evidence anywhere in Scripture of one occurring without the other.

v.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Here, in v.8 Paul expands a bit more. Here he tells us HOW one is saved, or by what means, which is "through faith". iow, to be saved, one must believe, which is clearly supported in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

So, combining v.5 with v.8 we know that faith logically preceds regeneration, since salvation and regeneration are equated.

 

[Foghorn]

Actually, neither God nor the apostle John said that.

They sure do.

Your statement is simply eisgesis of the text. It doesn't even close to saying that. Or meaning that.

I pray God will open your eyes to His truths.

 

[Foghorn]

In fact, all it says is that those presently believing (present participle) have been born of God. Are you aware of the grammar rules regarding present participles? Maybe not. They occur at the same time as the action of the main verb. Which is: have been born again.

If John had wanted to make a statement regarding one preceding the other, he would have used a different tense participle, like the perfect participle, which almost always indicates an action that occurs prior to that of the main verb.

All John was saying is that those believing have been born again. There is nothing in the grammar to force his words to mean that one occurs before the other. From John's perspective, they occur together; simultaneously.

The only passage I'm aware of that actually indicates which logically occurs first is found in Eph 2.

v.5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The parenthetical phrase clarifies what Paul meant by "made us alive". iow he was equating being made alive with being saved. They go together. We cannot have either one with the other at the same time. There is no evidence anywhere in Scripture of one occurring without the other.

v.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Here, in v.8 Paul expands a bit more. Here he tells us HOW one is saved, or by what means, which is "through faith". iow, to be saved, one must believe, which is clearly supported in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

So, combining v.5 with v.8 we know that faith logically preceds regeneration, since salvation and regeneration are equated.

Now I do realize it is difficult for you to see the truth here, it's obvious (respectfully) your mind has been trained in a carnal thinking way. You need to have a part in your salvation, I was the same way at one time.

Did you look at post #2? I hope it helps.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now I do realize it is difficult for you to see the truth here, it's obvious (respectfully) your mind has been trained in a carnal thinking way. You need to have a part in your salvation, I was the same way at one time.

Please don't compare me with you or anyone else. And to claim that I was trained in a "carnal thinking way" is highly offensive. I've noted from all the Calvinists on this forum that their understanding of spiritual growth is nil. iow, they have none. Apparently for a Calvinist, God not only causes the faith, and saves, He also causes the spiritual growth, so there is absolutely nothing for a Calvinist to do in that regard. It's all God's. Just sit back and wait for it.

Yet, Peter was clear about the responsibility of each believer. 2 Pet 1:3-10

v.3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

So, what is this "everything" that God has granted to believers for "life and godliness"? At least 2 things: Scriptures (true knowledge of Him) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I've yet to see any Calvinist address the commands to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) or "walk by means of the Holy Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh", which Paul went on to describe in gory detail.

Or the negative commands to "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" (Eph 4:30) and "stop quenching the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19).

These commands are vital for the believer's spiritual growth. Unless one is filled and walking by the Holy Spirit, they WILL fulfill the desires of the flesh, and therefore ARE grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

So much for "irresistible grace". Men resist the Holy Spirit, per Acts 7:51, and believers do grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. Which is why we are commanded to stop it.

I'm still waiting for someone of the RT persuasion to explain these 4 commands and what they are for.

But, let's continue with Peter's words. v.5a Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply...moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

iow, we, the believer are to ADD TO our faith these things.

And, what is the result of adding these things to our faith? v.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

iow, believers are only fruitful WHEN they have ADDED to their faith these character qualities.

And what is the result of those who haven't ADDED to their faith those character qualities?

v.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

So, what should believers do? v.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

The responsibility for spiritual growth is on the believer, who is commanded to be all the more diligent to make certain their calling and election.

This isn't to say that we confirm our salvation. Peter is saying that believers are to produce in their lifestyle appropriate verification that they are royal people (1 Pet 2:9).

Further results for those believers who have ADDED TO their faith those character qualities:

v.11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Please note that Peter isn't speaking of just entering the kingdom. He's talking about an "abundant entrance". I'll take an abundant entrance to just an entrance any day. This is another verse on eternal rewards for behavior. But I suspect the reformed will just dismiss all this with a wave of the hand and claim true believers will all have an abundant entrance.

Did you look at post #2? I hope it helps.

Yes I did. Why haven't you considered how present participles (the believing ones) interact with the action of the main verb?

 

[Foghorn]

Please don't compare me with you or anyone else. And to claim that I was trained in a "carnal thinking way" is highly offensive.

According to scripture IMO your thinking carnally. I don't mean to be offensive.

I've noted from all the Calvinists on this forum that their understanding of spiritual growth is nil. iow, they have none.

I have no doubt you see it that way.

Apparently for a Calvinist, God not only causes the faith, and saves, He also causes the spiritual growth, so there is absolutely nothing for a Calvinist to do in that regard. It's all God's. Just sit back and wait for it.

Well God has to accoring to the word. Man is not able.

Yet, Peter was clear about the responsibility of each believer. 2 Pet 1:3-10

v.3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

So, what is this "everything" that God has granted to believers for "life and godliness"? At least 2 things: Scriptures (true knowledge of Him) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Amen! have you noticed the word "granted?"

I've yet to see any Calvinist address the commands to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) or "walk by means of the Holy Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh", which Paul went on to describe in gory detail.

Paul is teaching, be filled with the Spirit, namely, with spiritual thoughts and meditations, joy, courage and strength. Which are the effects worldly men seek with wine.

Or the negative commands to "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" (Eph 4:30) and "stop quenching the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19).

Paul warns us not to be rebellious and offend the Spirit so the the Holy Spirit will not withdraw His joy, comfort and peace from our hearts.

These commands are vital for the believer's spiritual growth.

And Calvinist's say they are not? What calvinist says such a thing? "Strawman."

Unless one is filled and walking by the Holy Spirit, they WILL fulfill the desires of the flesh, and therefore ARE grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

And?

So much for "irresistible grace". Men resist the Holy Spirit, per Acts 7:51, and believers do grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. Which is why we are commanded to stop it.

You applying irresistible grace to the "believers" walk? A believer has a choice to live for and walk by the Spirit, where a lost sinner does not.

Scripture says about the believer that God will finish the work He started in believers, you do not know hearts, and where the refiners fire is burning through God's divine providence.

Irresistible grace is better understood in the act of regeneration, after regeneration (mystically united to Christ) we are irresistibly drawn to Christ, He becomes the desire of our hearts, and we finally come to the point where He is not just our hearts desire (believe with all our hearts) but we confess Him with our mouths, "Jesus, You are lord," and justified we are.

I'm still waiting for someone of the RT persuasion to explain these 4 commands and what they are for.

Hope I did ok for you?

But, let's continue with Peter's words. v.5a Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply...moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

iow, we, the believer are to ADD TO our faith these things.

And what happen to verse 4? For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

All these wonderful things have been granted bro. You don't see that?

And, what is the result of adding these things to our faith? v.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are fruits of righteousness and holiness which God plants in the hearts of those who are His, of course.

iow, believers are only fruitful WHEN they have ADDED to their faith these character qualities.

IMO your proclaiming a works based salvation. These wonderful fruits are from God, as we walk in them (which is descriptive not prescriptive) it shows us to be true and not just professed believers. Though for a time some fruits may seem nil, or very slow growing, but if they are there, they will eventually produce fruit.

And what is the result of those who haven't ADDED to their faith those character qualities?

people cannot add to it, these are granted by God, and we are to walk in them.

v.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

You see, where these virtues are, they will show themselves to be true as the fruits of the Spirit begin to grow. God causes the increase. On the other hand, where these appear to be wanting, they may be a false shadow without live and virtue.

These who are short sighted are as if someone is squinting their eyes because they cannot see far away, because it is dim and dark, therefore they cannot be guided spiritually. These are the professed believers, just going through the motions.

So, what should believers do? v.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Remember these blessings (virtues) are granted, and if we practice them (walk in the Spirit) we will run the race steady and unshaken and finally come to the end without stumbling. Blessed assurance!

The responsibility for spiritual growth is on the believer, who is commanded to be all the more diligent to make certain their calling and election.

Men are responsible to live and walk by the Spirit, for the couple reason I said above and it also shows, those who do not are "near sighted", and probably never believed in the first place (1 John).

This isn't to say that we confirm our salvation. Peter is saying that believers are to produce in their lifestyle appropriate verification that they are royal people (1 Pet 2:9).

By walking in the Spirit (indeed, those who have the Spirit and have been granted His virtues) we proclaim the excellencies of Him (not of us) who called us out of darkness into the light. Glory to God alone!

Further results for those believers who have ADDED TO their faith those character qualities:

Do you still not see "granted?"

v.11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Please note that Peter isn't speaking of just entering the kingdom. He's talking about an "abundant entrance". I'll take an abundant entrance to just an entrance any day. This is another verse on eternal rewards for behavior. But I suspect the reformed will just dismiss all this with a wave of the hand and claim true believers will all have an abundant entrance.

I see your struggle and your reasoning of thought. I do not mean to insult you but please reconsider.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to scripture IMO your thinking carnally. I don't mean to be offensive.

No, just according to your own opinion.

Well God has to accoring to the word. Man is not able.

Well, there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of man's belief. None.

And?

And…what??! This is what I said:
Unless one is filled and walking by the Holy Spirit, they WILL fulfill the desires of the flesh, and therefore ARE grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

Seems your response supports my observation that Calvinists have no idea what spiritual growth is about, or how it is obtained.

You applying irresistible grace to the "believers" walk? A believer has a choice to live for and walk by the Spirit, where a lost sinner does not.

I don't apply the false doctrine of irresistible grace to anyone.

Scripture says about the believer that God will finish the work He started in believers, you do not know hearts, and where the refiners fire is burning through God's divine providence.

To "finish the work" obviously refers to salvation. Those He gives eternal life to, He most assuredly keeps. The rest of your statement makes no sense regarding what I said.

Irresistible grace is better understood in the act of regeneration, after regeneration (mystically united to Christ) we are irresistibly drawn to Christ, He becomes the desire of our hearts, and we finally come to the point where He is not just our hearts desire (believe with all our hearts) but we confess Him with our mouths, "Jesus, You are lord," and justified we are.

First, our being united to Christ isn't mystical. Paul explained it quite clearly in Eph 1:13. The Holy Spirit seals the believer in Him. No mystery at all.

Second, all the rest of your paragraph are basically commands for believers, proving that none of it is automatic or guaranteed for believers. Again, why Peter tells us to ADD TO our faith those character qualities.

Hope I did ok for you?

Not yet.

And what happen to verse 4? For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

All these wonderful things have been granted bro. You don't see that?

I did explain that. God has given/granted to us "everything for life and godliness". BUT, seems you've completely missed the part of having to ADD TO our faith certain character qualities.

These are fruits of righteousness and holiness which God plants in the hearts of those who are His, of course.

No, that is wrong. Peter was very clear about having to ADD TO our faith those character qualities.

IMO your proclaiming a works based salvation.

This is what I actually said:iow, believers are only fruitful WHEN they have ADDED to their faith these character qualities.
So your comment is totally off base. I wasn't even speaking of salvation. Eternal rewards are most definitely works based. Seems you're still confused.

These wonderful fruits are from God, as we walk in them (which is descriptive not prescriptive) it shows us to be true and not just professed believers.

Ah, "as we walk in them". Just as Peter said to ADD TO our faith.

Though for a time some fruits may seem nil, or very slow growing, but if they are there, they will eventually produce fruit.

Not guaranteed. Which is why God does remove believers from this life under what John described as the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16, and Paul noted in 1 Cor 11:30.

people cannot add to it, these are granted by God, and we are to walk in them.

Why woiuld one totally ignore Peter's command to ADD TO our faith, then??

You see, where these virtues are, they will show themselves to be true as the fruits of the Spirit begin to grow. God causes the increase. On the other hand, where these appear to be wanting, they may be a false shadow without live and virtue.

Peter was clear that such a believer, who has not ADDED TO their faith, is still forgiven of his sins, but he has forgotten it.
v.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

This cannot be describing an unbeliever.

These who are short sighted are as if someone is squinting their eyes because they cannot see far away, because it is dim and dark, therefore they cannot be guided spiritually. These are the professed believers, just going through the motions.

Totally wrong, as the verse is clear enough. How is any unbeliever "purified from his former sins"??

Remember these blessings (virtues) are granted, and if we practice them (walk in the Spirit) we will run the race steady and unshaken and finally come to the end without stumbling. Blessed assurance!

Wrong again! Peter commands that believers ADD TO their faith these character qualities. Or we'll be blind and short sighted.

Men are responsible to live and walk by the Spirit, for the couple reason I said above and it also shows, those who do not are "near sighted", and probably never believed in the first place (1 John).

v.9 totally refutes your view. They have been "purified from their former sins", and that refers to unbelievers? Impossible!!

Do you still not see "granted?"

Very clearly. But why do you not see ADD TO YOUR FAITH?

[QJOUTE]I see your struggle and your reasoning of thought. I do not mean to insult you but please reconsider.[/QUOTE]
Seems you're just "seeing things" then. I'm not struggling. But it is quite clear that your view of 2 Pet 1 is very confused.

 

[Foghorn]

No, just according to your own opinion.

Mine and the church from the time of Jesus actually.

Well, there are no verses that tell us that God is the cause of man's belief. None.

Would you mind showing me then, all the verses which tell us man is the cause of his own belief, salvation?

Because I see God being the cause.
John 1:12-13.
John 3:3-8
Titus 3:5
Deut 30:6
Eze 36:26-27.
John 5:21
Eph 2:1, 5.
Luke 8:10.
Matt 16:15-17.

These just barely scratch the surface. But I will stop here for now.

And…what??! This is what I said:
Unless one is filled and walking by the Holy Spirit, they WILL fulfill the desires of the flesh, and therefore ARE grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

I say again, and? I don't see any issue here, what problem do you see?

In other words, "yes....so?"

Seems your response supports my observation that Calvinists have no idea what spiritual growth is about, or how it is obtained.

Who are you trying to convince?

I am trying to see where your track of thought is. I agree with the statement above. If we do not walk by the Spirit we will fulfill the desires of the flesh. So, what is your hangup? Are you trying to bring something out? Do you misunderstand my reply?
Are your feathers ruffled?

Please explain?

I don't apply the false doctrine of irresistible grace to anyone.

I know you do not. But you missed my whole point. Please, relax and lets walk through this.

Respectfully, what I see is your applying the doctrines of Pelagianism to scripture and in so, teaching a doctrine of sovereign man.

Scripture teaches man is not able to appraise the things of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead, a God hater at enmity with God, etc..etc..

Since the fall God has been seeking man, man does as Adam, hides from God. And when he did come forward of his own it was with his own righteousness (fig leaves), you see friend, man can do nothing to save himself.

To "finish the work" obviously refers to salvation. Those He gives eternal life to, He most assuredly keeps. The rest of your statement makes no sense regarding what I said.

God continues of in the believers lives, He does not leave us as orphans. You're not a Deist, are you? .

First, our being united to Christ isn't mystical.

Really? and you can explain it in detail? Please then, explain to me (according to scripture) how God unites a person to Christ. Further, explain how all the blessing flow from Christ (the fount of every blessing to the church) to the believers since He is their head.

Or, if you rather, show our independence from Christ while still being a believer, explain (according to scripture) how we function as spirit filled believers independent (not mystically united) of Christ and develop our own good works into ripe fruit.

I'll wait patiently, take your time.

Paul explained it quite clearly in Eph 1:13. The Holy Spirit seals the believer in Him. No mystery at all.

Yes, I agree Paul does explain that. But that is not what I am talking about or asking. Do you see the difference?

If not, please let me know, I will try and explain it a bit more clearly for you.

Second, all the rest of your paragraph are basically commands for believers, proving that none of it is automatic or guaranteed for believers.

Automatic? When did I use the word automatic? May I suggest we actually consider what we discuss here and not bear false witness against each other? If you do not understand what I am trying to say, please ask? Thanks.

You may be able to squeeze this automatic thing in on a hyper-Calvinist, but it does not work for me, I am not a hyper as you should already see.

Ill do another reply for the rest of your post, ...lots here.

 

[Foghorn]

Not yet.

That's because your really not considering what I am trying to tell you.

I did explain that. God has given/granted to us "everything for life and godliness". BUT, seems you've completely missed the part of having to ADD TO our faith certain character qualities.

Perhaps you should explain a bit more what we need to add to our faith?

I do realize we need to be obedient, walk by the Spirit and practice doing God.

No, that is wrong. Peter was very clear about having to ADD TO our faith those character qualities.

Ok, please explain how and where Peter is so clear about us having to add our faith these character abilities from scripture. Show how these are not granted, but begun and developed by us.

For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

This is what I actually said:iow, believers are only fruitful WHEN they have ADDED to their faith these character qualities.

I understand it these qualities (virtues) are granted, not added by us. But please, show how it is different?

So your comment is totally off base.

No. I believe you comment is lacking scripture support.

I wasn't even speaking of salvation. Eternal rewards are most definitely works based. Seems you're still confused.

No, IMO I believe your Pelagianism is blinding you to God's truths.

Ah, "as we walk in them". Just as Peter said to ADD TO our faith.

Again, Peter said these are granted to us. And by these we are able to become partakers of the divine nature, there is nothing we can add, all these blessing come from Christ who is our Head.

Not guaranteed. Which is why God does remove believers from this life under what John described as the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16, and Paul noted in 1 Cor 11:30.

Again, your teaching salvation by works. According to you there is no grace for new believes and those who mature slowly?

Why woiuld one totally ignore Peter's command to ADD TO our faith, then??

Read Peter's words again.

Peter was clear that such a believer, who has not ADDED TO their faith, is still forgiven of his sins, but he has forgotten it.
v.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

This cannot be describing an unbeliever.

Friend, do a study on the words Peter uses, it will also help if you understand some Greek. "blind and short-sighted."

Totally wrong, as the verse is clear enough. How is any unbeliever "purified from his former sins"??

Since he speaks of of one as being blind or near-sighted, and is lacking these qualities (for he who lacks these qualities) what else should we believers, believe? You would have it as we need to bring these aboard in and of ourselves, scripture has it as these qualities being granted. Therefore, since scripture teaches these are granted upon conversion, and since this one Peter is teaching on lacks them, I believe it is completely within context to say they (who are lacking) are not saved. Why is that so difficult to accept? Bro, IMO, your looking at scripture carnally.

If you disagree with Peter, consider James:
James 2,
:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

You see, though these people have heard the gospel and perhaps had some conviction, finally rejected God's grace, though they may have appeared to be saved, they reject the gospel, therefore they do not possess these qualities.

You see Peter goes on to teach to be all the more diligent in making sure of God calling and choosing you, because if He did you will have been granted these qualities, they come with the new man, from Christ (being united) flow all the blessing for the church.

Wrong again! Peter commands that believers ADD TO their faith these character qualities. Or we'll be blind and short sighted.

See above.

v.9 totally refutes your view. They have been "purified from their former sins", and that refers to unbelievers? Impossible!!

See above.

Very clearly. But why do you not see ADD TO YOUR FAITH?

Again, show me where it teaches we are to add these of ourselves?

Seems you're just "seeing things" then.

No, not at all. Look again.

I'm not struggling.

No?

But it is quite clear that your view of 2 Pet 1 is very confused.

Well, please explain. take your time and we will work through it.

But lets start at the beginning and take our time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Would you mind showing me then, all the verses which tell us man is the cause of his own belief, salvation?

It is demonstrated in the very command to believe. I know that Calvinists have no problem with the idea of commanding what is impossible. But it doesn't make sense, regardless of how Calvinists view it.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him to believe. How silly, if man cannot believe. Why would Paul tell him to do something that he was incapable of doing? And Paul, being a mere human like us all, could not have known anything about the jailer, you know, like Calvinsts like to bring up, such as "Paul must have known the jailer was one of the elect" kind of responses.

Because I see God being the cause.
John 1:12-13.
John 3:3-8
Titus 3:5
Deut 30:6
Eze 36:26-27.
John 5:21
Eph 2:1, 5.
Luke 8:10.
Matt 16:15-17.

Yes, you apparently are "seeing things". But I don't. Not any of these verses tells us that God is the cause of one's believing.

More probably, you believe these verses mean that God is the cause. But the wording doesn't lead one to that conclusion.

These just barely scratch the surface. But I will stop here for now.

I'd like to see even one verse exegetes that shows that God is the cause of one's believing. Is that possible?

I am trying to see where your track of thought is. I agree with the statement above. If we do not walk by the Spirit we will fulfill the desires of the flesh. So, what is your hangup? Are you trying to bring something out? Do you misunderstand my reply?

Apparently we're talking over each other's head. I responded to what you had posted, but it seems my response has no context to what you posted.

Are your feathers ruffled?

No. Why?

Respectfully, what I see is your applying the doctrines of Pelagianism to scripture and in so, teaching a doctrine of sovereign man.

Totally wrong. Man is absolutely NOT sovereign. But it seems to most, if not all Calvinists, if man is free to either respond to or reject God's promise of eternal life, then that must mean that man is sovereign. Which would be wrong.

Scripture teaches man is not able to appraise the things of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead, a God hater at enmity with God, etc..etc..

None of which precludes unregenerate man from understanding what God promises.

Since the fall God has been seeking man, man does as Adam, hides from God. And when he did come forward of his own it was with his own righteousness (fig leaves), you see friend, man can do nothing to save himself.

Of course there is nothing man can to do save himself. Even his action of belief doesn't save him. It is God alone who does the saving. But…God saves only those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

God continues of in the believers lives, He does not leave us as orphans. You're not a Deist, are you? .

Of course not. And your line of questions seems rather queer here. I'm a born again believer in Jesus Christ, as you well know. So these kinds of questions are really out of the box.

Really? and you can explain it in detail?

As much detail as the Scriptures have given.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What I read here is that those who have listened to the gospel, and have believed, have been sealed in Christ (union with Him) by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think 1:13 means?

Or, if you rather, show our independence from Christ while still being a believer, explain (according to scripture) how we function as spirit filled believers independent (not mystically united) of Christ and develop our own good works into ripe fruit.

Since I don't believe what you're asking, I can't show what I don't believe.

I've never said believers independently develop our own good works. I've always emphasized the filling of the Holy Spirit and walking by His means.

Yes, I agree Paul does explain that. But that is not what I am talking about or asking. Do you see the difference?

Obviously not. You'll have to spell it out.

If not, please let me know, I will try and explain it a bit more clearly for you.

Yes, please do.

Automatic? When did I use the word automatic? May I suggest we actually consider what we discuss here and not bear false witness against each other?

I was just making a point. Are your feathers a bit ruffled? I never bore false witness against you or anyone else.

If you do not understand what I am trying to say, please ask? Thanks.

I don't, and I have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's because your really not considering what I am trying to tell you.

Actually, I am. And have been.

Perhaps you should explain a bit more what we need to add to our faith?

Just exactly what Peter said to add, in 2 Pet 1.

I do realize we need to be obedient, walk by the Spirit and practice doing God.

I'm glad that you do. And your typo actually makes the point: "doing God".

Ok, please explain how and where Peter is so clear about us having to add our faith these character abilities from scripture. Show how these are not granted, but begun and developed by us.

The real question is where does Peter tell us that all these are just given to us. I'm sure we disagree on what he meant by "God has given to us everything we need for life and godliness. But his very clear point is that we, as believers, MUST ADD the character qualities to our faith, in order to have an abundant entrance.

For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

I understand it these qualities (virtues) are granted, not added by us. But please, show how it is different?

Well, Peter told believer to ADD these character qualities to our faith. I don't know how to say any more clear than he did.

No. I believe you comment is lacking scripture support.

Please provide context here, and I will provide.

No, IMO I believe your Pelagianism is blinding you to God's truths.

Well, we all have opinions. And yours here is wrong. Apparently your view rejects the concept of eternal rewards for faithful service?

Again, Peter said these are granted to us. And by these we are able to become partakers of the divine nature, there is nothing we can add, all these blessing come from Christ who is our Head.

I believe he was referring to the indwelling Holy Spirit, without which none of us could do anything right. But the qualities that he commanded that we ADD TO our faith aren't what is given. It is by the Holy Spirit that we are able to add the qualities.

I said this:
Which is why God does remove believers from this life under what John described as the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16, and Paul noted in 1 Cor 11:30.

Again, your teaching salvation by works.

Are you kidding me???!! I was talking about divine discipline for the disobedient child of God. It had nothing to do with salvation.

According to you there is no grace for new believes and those who mature slowly?

Again, your opinion is quite misguided. I wasn't talking about newbies or slow growers. None of us have grown all that quickly. I was specifically speaking about the rebels amongst us. btw, the immoral guy in 1 Cor 5 was handed over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". Any idea what Paul was talking about?

Read Peter's words again.

Sure. What is your point? He said to ADD TO your faith a number of character qualities. Apparently you don't believe that.

Friend, do a study on the words Peter uses, it will also help if you understand some Greek. "blind and short-sighted."

A simple explanation would be quite helpful, since you seem to know. I have a lexicon (several), so what's your point?

Since he speaks of of one as being blind or near-sighted, and is lacking these qualities (for he who lacks these qualities) what else should we believers, believe? You would have it as we need to bring these aboard in and of ourselves, scripture has it as these qualities being granted.

Seems you're misreading Peter. I don't know why the phrase "ADD TO YOUR FAITH" keeps getting missed so much. Then he lists what needs to be added.

iow, once we have believed, and are saved, God expects a certain behavior from His children. And Peter lists them. And we need to ADD them TO our faith. Which is the Christian life.

Seems Calvinism believes that God gives all that, and being sovereign, whatever we do is from Him. I guess Calvinism reads Peter as really saying that since God has granted us everything for life and godliness, he's really commanding GOD to ADD TO our faith. Weird.

Therefore, since scripture teaches these are granted upon conversion

No it doesn't. Peter does NOT say the character qualities are what's been granted. He says God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. That is a specific reference to the power of the Holy Spirit. And by His power, we still MUST ADD TO OUR FAITH.

and since this one Peter is teaching on lacks them, I believe it is completely within context to say they (who are lacking) are not saved.

Wrong opinion again. Peter was specific about the FACT that the one who is short sighted and blind...1:9
For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

How could Peter refer to an unbeliever as having "forgotten his purification from his former sins"? Are you espousing the idea that Christ died for unbelievers???

Why is that so difficult to accept?

Because of what Peter specifically and clearly WROTE.

Bro, IMO, your looking at scripture carnally.

Well, I'm sure my view of your opinions are fairly clear by now.

If you disagree with Peter, consider James

Oh, that's rich! You've misread Peter, and now you'll slaughter poor ol' James.

James 2,
:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

You see, though these people have heard the gospel and perhaps had some conviction, finally rejected God's grace, though they may have appeared to be saved, they reject the gospel, therefore they do not possess these qualities.

Nonsense. James is admonishing believers (saved people) to demonstrate their faith, which is very clearly seen in 2:18. One cannot demonstrate their faith without works. That's his point. What Calvinism, Arminianism and the RCC have done to poor ol' James is really sad.

Oh, and when he wrote about not being justified by faith alone, he was speaking about being justified in the eyes of others, surely not God. God doesn't need to see one's works to justify them. But man does.

Again, show me where it teaches we are to add these of ourselves?

Who is Peter addressing and commanding? Us, believers, or God? Seems from your post he was telling God to do it.

 

[Foghorn]

It is demonstrated in the very command to believe. I know that Calvinists have no problem with the idea of commanding what is impossible. But it doesn't make sense, regardless of how Calvinists view it.

I realize it doesn't make sense to you. I pray the Lord will open your eyes to see these wonderful truths.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him to believe. How silly, if man cannot believe. Why would Paul tell him to do something that he was incapable of doing?

Paul does no teaching on this, all Paul said was, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Besides, this guy was witness to what just happened, read Acts 16:22-30, and he must have realized these men were of God. Who else should he have asked? The Romans? Also, you do not know this man's heart, pehaps God had prepared him and planned this very meeting of him and the apostles.

Either way, Paul is not teaching him anything here, just giving him the answer which all believers know.

And why is the truth silly? What would you tell someone if they asked you how they must be saved? Through works or faith (belief)?

What one must do and how are two different things. We are not to teach how to believe, just that one must believe.

And Paul, being a mere human like us all, could not have known anything about the jailer, you know, like Calvinsts like to bring up, such as "Paul must have known the jailer was one of the elect" kind of responses.

Are you building another strawman? I would never suggest anything like that. I agree we do not know anything about many people, and more importantly, we do not know their hearts. Paul was doing as he is suppose to, being a faithful witness of the Lord.

 

[Foghorn]

Yes, you apparently are "seeing things". But I don't. Not any of these verses tells us that God is the cause of one's believing.

More probably, you believe these verses mean that God is the cause. But the wording doesn't lead one to that conclusion.

Well, I cannot make the blind see, or the carnally minded spiritual, all I can do is proclaim the truth.

I'm told to be ready in and out of season, to rebuke, correct, etc...

I'd like to see even one verse exegetes that shows that God is the cause of one's believing. Is that possible?

Probably as impossible for you to believe as it is for you to accept Christ is the head of the church and it is from Him and Him alone we receive all the blessing, including the blessing we have discussed.

Apparently we're talking over each other's head. I responded to what you had posted, but it seems my response has no context to what you posted.

Ok, forget it I guess. If it is important, I am sure you or I will get back to it.

No. Why?

Just wondering.

Totally wrong. Man is absolutely NOT sovereign.

I hope you understand that.

But it seems to most, if not all Calvinists, if man is free to either respond to or reject God's promise of eternal life, then that must mean that man is sovereign. Which would be wrong.

It seems to me most, if not all non-Calvinists claim man is not soverigne, but, sure do teach it in their theology.

None of which precludes unregenerate man from understanding what God promises.

Eventhough they may have a small beam of light in understanding what God's promises are, they are not able of themselves to believe.

Of course there is nothing man can to do save himself. Even his action of belief doesn't save him. It is God alone who does the saving. But…God saves only those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

The proof one is born again is in believing. 1 John 1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

Also, John 3:3.

Of course not. And your line of questions seems rather queer here. I'm a born again believer in Jesus Christ, as you well know. So these kinds of questions are really out of the box.

You do not see how my questions relate to your theology?

As much detail as the Scriptures have given.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What I read here is that those who have listened to the gospel, and have believed, have been sealed in Christ (union with Him) by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think 1:13 means?

I prefer to keep verses in context, from verse 1 through the whole chapter. But, I will take these two for now. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I believe the elect are mystically united with Christ through regeneration, the new man (through regeneration) united to Christ receives the gift of faith, it is now his possession which the new man possesses, therefore while we are "In Him" and hear the gospel and believe we are sealed by the Spirit. We are able to believe because of regeneration, and therefore believe and are justified. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge (a solemn promise) and He will gather the elect, it's irresistible and infallible. And by His strength, He will accomplish what He has begun in us all the way to heaven.

Since I don't believe what you're asking, I can't show what I don't believe.

I've never said believers independently develop our own good works. I've always emphasized the filling of the Holy Spirit and walking by His means.

You claimed the virtues are ours, something we must add and develop. Did you forget?

 

[Foghorn]

Obviously not. You'll have to spell it out.


Yes, please do.


I was just making a point. Are your feathers a bit ruffled? I never bore false witness against you or anyone else.


I don't, and I have.

These are important, I haven't forgot. I will address these shortly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I realize it doesn't make sense to you. I pray the Lord will open your eyes to see these wonderful truths.

Commanding what is impossible isn't a "wonderful truth". It's a mess.

Paul does no teaching on this, all Paul said was, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

I didn't say he was teaching the jailer. He was TELLING the jailer what he MUST DO to be saved.

Besides, this guy was witness to what just happened, read Acts 16:22-30, and he must have realized these men were of God. Who else should he have asked? The Romans? Also, you do not know this man's heart, pehaps God had prepared him and planned this very meeting of him and the apostles.

There's nothing in the context or anywhere else that God regenerates (prepares as Calvinism likes to say it) people so they will believe.

Either way, Paul is not teaching him anything here, just giving him the answer which all believers know.

Of course.

And why is the truth silly?

Truth is never silly, and I never said truth was. I did say that the RT view that God commands man to do something he is incapable of doing is silly. Because it isn't the truth.

What would you tell someone if they asked you how they must be saved? Through works or faith (belief)?

I'd give the same answer that Paul did.

Are you building another strawman? I would never suggest anything like that. I agree we do not know anything about many people, and more importantly, we do not know their hearts. Paul was doing as he is suppose to, being a faithful witness of the Lord.

The point keeps getting ignored, misunderstood, or something by the reformed. For those so-called "non-elect" (for whom Christ didn't die) there is no possibility of being saved, so telling them that they will be saved if they believe is dishonest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Yes, you apparently are "seeing things". But I don't. Not any of these verses tells us that God is the cause of one's believing.

More probably, you believe these verses mean that God is the cause. But the wording doesn't lead one to that conclusion.

Well, I cannot make the blind see, or the carnally minded spiritual, all I can do is proclaim the truth.

Calvinism cannot defend it's position that God is the cause of one's believing.

Probably as impossible for you to believe as it is for you to accept Christ is the head of the church and it is from Him and Him alone we receive all the blessing, including the blessing we have discussed.

Why would one think that it is impossible for me to accept Christ is the head of the church? Such comments reveal how little of what I post is being understood.

It seems to me most, if not all non-Calvinists claim man is not soverigne, but, sure do teach it in their theology.

If there is any evidence of that in my posts, please point it out. Because I totally reject that. And tired of being mischaracterized.

Even though they may have a small beam of light in understanding what God's promises are, they are not able of themselves to believe.

There is no support for that idea in Scripture. Only in RT talking points.

The proof one is born again is in believing. 1 John 1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

The verse doesn't say or suggest that. What it does say is that those currently believing (present participle) have been born again. It says nothing about WHEN one initially believed unto salvation. Further, the present participle occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb (born again).

So, saving faith and regeneration occur at the same time.

Also, John 3:3.

Nope. To "see" in that verse is used to indicate seeing by being there. iow, no one gets into the kingdom apart from being born again.

Jesus clarifies this in v.5: "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So, seeing and etering are equated.

to "see":
1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something
1d3a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold

The clear meaning has to do with observation, not understanding, which seems to be the way the reformed want to understand it.

You do not see how my questions relate to your theology?

No, as I said.

I prefer to keep verses in context, from verse 1 through the whole chapter. But, I will take these two for now. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I believe the elect are mystically united with Christ through regeneration, the new man (through regeneration) united to Christ receives the gift of faith, it is now his possession which the new man possesses, therefore while we are "In Him" and hear the gospel and believe we are sealed by the Spirit. We are able to believe because of regeneration, and therefore believe and are justified. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge (a solemn promise) and He will gather the elect, it's irresistible and infallible. And by His strength, He will accomplish what He has begun in us all the way to heaven.

None of this is supported by the context anywhere. It simply isn't. What is clearly communicated is that when one hears and believes, THEN they are sealed in Him with or by the Holy Spirit of promise. (4:30).

There is no support for the idea that one is regenerated before being given the gift of faith. In fact, there is no support in Scripture for God giving the "gift of faith" so that one will believe. When one believes the gospel, God gives the believer the whole body of faith, which is found in Scripture. As a noun.

The gift of faith certainly isn't about verbs, like believing.

You claimed the virtues are ours, something we must add and develop. Did you forget?

I've always made the point that only when the believer is filled with and walking by means of the Holy Spirit, can they develop character qualities.

And when the believer grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit, they will fulfill the desires of the flesh, and cannot develop character qualities.

The point of 2 Pet is that we MUST ADD TO OUR FAITH, as Peter said.

He didn't say that God will add them, or that God gave them to us.

When he said that God has given us "everything we need for life and godliness", he was referring to the indwelling Holy Spirit, who empowers us to develop the character qualities.

But it seems RT forgets, or ignores, the possibility of grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. When believers behave that way, the usual line is "they really didn't have saving faith". It was just some kind of "spurious/false/dead/etc faith".

 

[stenerson]

Personally I don't get too worked up concerning the timing of repentance, belief, conversion, regeneration etc.
There are different text that hit it from different angles. Is a person that is being drawn to God, say, in fear and desperation, becoming conscience of their sinfulness, but not yet assured of salvation, is this person regenerate? They may be struggling with and pleading with God for a lengthy time before they are given faith and assurance. The intricacies of the mysterious workings of the Holy Spirit can't be dissected like this IMHO. Some folks gain faith and assurance quickly, some may seek and struggle for years and then gain assurance. I don't feel I need to dissect the work of the Spirit and how or when He changes our heart.
Why should I? It is made plain enough that repentance and faith are granted by God. Is a convert a regenerate or a new creation during the seeking and pleading phase before granted faith? I don't know nor care to speculate. I'm satisfied to know God Himself drew them to Christ and completed the work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Personally I don't get too worked up concerning the timing of repentance, belief, conversion, regeneration etc.
There are different text that hit it from different angles. Is a person that is being drawn to God, say, in fear and desperation, becoming conscience of their sinfulness, but not yet assured of salvation, is this person regenerate? They may be struggling with and pleading with God for a lengthy time before they are given faith and assurance. The intricacies of the mysterious workings of the Holy Spirit can't be dissected like this IMHO. Some folks gain faith and assurance quickly, some may seek and struggle for years and then gain assurance. I don't feel I need to dissect the work of the Spirit and how or when He changes our heart.

I just don't read anything in Scripture about anyone "gaining faith" from God, which seems to be your foundation. I do find many passages encouraging, pleading, and commanding people to believe, so I believe that God created mankind with the ability and freedom to either believe or reject His promise of eternal life. That's where the huge divide is.

Why should I? It is made plain enough that repentance and faith are granted by God. Is a convert a regenerate or a new creation during the seeking and pleading phase before granted faith? I don't know nor care to speculate. I'm satisfied to know God Himself drew them to Christ and completed the work.

Jesus was clear about who God drew to Christ. The answer is in Jn 6:45.

 

[stenerson]

I just don't read anything in Scripture about anyone "gaining faith" from God, which seems to be your foundation. I do find many passages encouraging, pleading, and commanding people to believe, so I believe that God created mankind with the ability and freedom to either believe or reject His promise of eternal life. That's where the huge divide is.

You're not looking hard enough:

psalm 65
3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

David understand that He had no chance if not for God choosing him and causing Him to approach. He wasn't offended by God's "interference" in his life. He was grateful for it.

Jesus was clear about who God drew to Christ. The answer is in Jn 6:45.

45It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me

Yeah. Those that have learned and been taught by the Father.

He was also clear on those that God did not draw to Christ.

64But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”