Rapture timing is not a salvation issue, no matter the threat Pre tribbers try to threaten you

[Cockcrow]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Vambram]

It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong.

Ever since 1979, I have believed in the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ. However, none of the teachers, pastors, preachers, or fellow Christians whom I know of that also believe in the pre-tribulation Rapture also do teach that other Christians, whom believe otherwise, are NOT saved or that fellowship should be broken with them.

 

[Bobber]

It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong.

Ah sorry I think you're being somewhat extreme. There might be a pocket of some which are very rigid about this but I haven't found their numbers are great. I think once the internet came a great many were exposed to variety of ways of thinking about the rapture. I think pastors know a lot of people in the congregations don't necessarily see eye to eye with the Pre Trib position. I think they show a lot more flexibility about PreTrib, Post Trib differences then years ago. Maybe not all places but most.

 

[eleos1954]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 3:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All will go through the great tribulation (the time just prior to the Lords return). Since we do not know when that is ... we are to always be prepared .... God let's us know what is going to happen not exactly when.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cockrow, what you're saying about the 2A {2nd Advent) is absolutely correct. However, what you're missing is why the 2A cannot be the next coming of Jesus Christ.

In the 2A, Jesus clearly fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. Part and parcel to that descension is it will be in full view of all on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Fair enough?

Acts 1:11 has a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the way") the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. Let's first recognize that the ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended to behind clouds, then into Heaven. The reverse-sequence will dictate His NEXT return. Jesus must descend from Heaven behind clouds, then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom or whereto. Acts 1:11 has nothing to do with location.

My friend, it is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS, and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). However, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus would not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but that doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

My friend, only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. In contrast, in the ascension, Jesus ascended by Himself. Therefore, 1 Th 4:16 very importantly makes crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself. In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. We have to pass through clouds to see Jesus. That further proves Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Ah sorry I think you're being somewhat extreme. There might be a pocket of some which are very rigid about this but I haven't found their numbers are great. I think once the internet came a great many were exposed to variety of ways of thinking about the rapture. I think pastors know a lot of people in the congregations don't necessarily see eye to eye with the Pre Trib position. I think they show a lot more flexibility about PreTrib, Post Trib differences then years ago. Maybe not all places but most.

Bobber, what do you think of this? I have solid Scriptural evidence that the pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event. How about that?

This was sent to Cockrow two days ago. Please tell me what you think. God bless!

Cockrow, what you're saying about the 2A {2nd Advent) is absolutely correct. However, what you're missing is why the 2A cannot be the next coming of Jesus Christ.

In the 2A, Jesus clearly fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. Part and parcel to that descension is it will be in full view of all on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Fair enough?

Acts 1:11 has a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the way") the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. Let's first recognize that the ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended to behind clouds, then into Heaven. The reverse-sequence will dictate His NEXT return. Jesus must descend from Heaven behind clouds, then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom or whereto. Acts 1:11 has nothing to do with location.

My friend, it is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS, and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). However, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus would not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but that doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

My friend, only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. In contrast, in the ascension, Jesus ascended by Himself. Therefore, 1 Th 4:16 very importantly makes crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself. In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. We have to pass through clouds to see Jesus. That further proves Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

 

[returntosender]

How can anyone guesstimate
On the second coming when the anti Christ hasn't appeared yet?

 

[returntosender]

How can anyone guesstimate
On the second coming when the anti Christ hasn't appeared yet?

 

[Jan001]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This is apocalyptic language. These events were fulfilled by the end of 70 AD. Matthew 24:1-35 explains that the temple (the heaven and earth of the Jews) will be destroyed, thereby the Jewish religious system: priests, animal sacrifices, and temple events will be destroyed. These Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah and so they brought this punishment upon themselves. God used the Roman armies to punish them.

Matthew 24:34-35 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to the first century Christians, Nero (666), was the antichrist.
Some early Christians denounced their faith and fell away when they faced persecution and death.

Jesus came in judgment against Nero ("whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming)." Nero was declared "public enemy" of Rome. Nero fled from Rome and then he ordered one of his servants to kill him because Nero was too much of a coward to commit suicide. Nero blamed the great fire in Rome on the Christians and that caused them great persecution and death.

We are still waiting for the Day when those who are still on earth will meet Jesus in the air. It will be at the end of time, after the last trumpet sounds.

There will be more antichrists before that time comes. Satan will continue his malicious and malevolent assault on Christ's church until he is cast permanently into the lake of fire at the end of time.

 

[Dan Perez]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Ad why not check the Greek text , FALLING AWAY ??

IT IS the Greek word APOSTASA and means DEPARTURE , ( meaning the departure of the body of Christ )) should come

FIRST / PROTOS , and the man of sin should be REVEALED the son of DESTRUICTION .

And there is NO GREEK called RAPTURE , PERIOD !!

Read 2 Thess 2:4 , The one OPPOSING and EXALTING exalting himself over all things being called of God or object of

worship so that he as God is to sit down into the TEMPLE OF God , exhibiting himself that he is God !!

This means The he DEPARTURE of the Body of Christ comes FIRST

Then the TEMPLE is BUILT !!

Then the the ANTI-CHRIST comes , and we will not be here !!\

dan p

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus said After the tribulation Matthew 24:29 I am Post trib pre wrath believer in Jesus. If someone disagrees and is Pre trib that's fine, you can be saved and be pre trib. and Post tribbers dont make it a salvation issue. you are still. brother in Christ. It is the pre trib people who teach with this cult like false gospel that you must be pre trib or you're not saved, or they will break fellowship with you, and they mock. and that's wrong. Because the truth is not on their side they have to threaten you. when the Bible clearly says after the tribulation scores of verses but Matthew 24 is the most damning because it's coming from Lord Jesus Christ directly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matt 24:31 is a gathering of “the elect.” In the context of the Trib, “the elect” are Jews. They are gathered but there’s no apostasia. No one can say with certainty, where they go once gathered. However, a highly probable guess is Matt 25:31-40.

 

[Dan Perez]

Matt 24:31 is a gathering of “the elect.” In the context of the Trib, “the elect” are Jews. They are gathered but there’s no apostasia. No one can say with certainty, where they go once gathered. However, a highly probable guess is Matt 25:31-40.

So hat does FALLING AWAY then mean and it is the Greek word , APOSTASIA and also used i Acts 21:21 ??

Acts 21:21 is a DEPARTURE from MOSES !!

dan p

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So hat does FALLING AWAY then mean and it is the Greek word , APOSTASIA and also used i Acts 21:21 ??

Acts 21:21 is a DEPARTURE from MOSES !!

dan p

Thank you for the definitions and derivatives.

There simply is no proof of those gathered in Matt 24:31 being involved in a rapture to Heaven. There is no indication where those folks end up.

There is also this question regarding Matt 24:30-31: Is v31 immediately fulfilled after v30, or is there an interlude (v31 occurring after Armageddon)?

The argument for immediate fulfillment of v31 is those gathered become part of the armies on white horses cited in Rev 19:14.

The argument against immediate fulfillment of v31 has that group end up in Matt 25:31-40.

 

[Dan Perez]

Thank you for the definitions and derivatives.

There simply is no proof of those gathered in Matt 24:31 being involved in a rapture to Heaven. There is no indication where those folks end up.

There is also this question regarding Matt 24:30-31: Is v31 immediately fulfilled after v30, or is there an interlude (v31 occurring after Armageddon)?

The argument for immediate fulfillment of v31 is those gathered become part of the armies on white horses cited in Rev 19:14.

The argument against immediate fulfillment of v31 has that group end up in Matt 25:31-40.

And Matthew and Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21 all say the same , and are talking about Christ COMING and many still

believe it is the RAPTURE , and there is no Greek word RAPTURE in tehe bible !!

Just there is no Greek word for PERGATORY and most do not no that the word EKKLESIA ,. really means ASSEMBLY

and does not means CHURCH , but do not take my word , just check VINE'S Greek DICTIONARY or Check STRONGS //

CONCORDANCE !!

By the way EKK means OUT and LESIA , means a calling .

dan p