Physical Death and evolution
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If your definition of evolution is "A change in allele frequencies in a population from one generation to the next" then no, death is not necessary.GodSaves said:
If you are talking about the Darwinist's full model of common ancestry, then yes - death is necessary. Natural selection works through the elimination of harmful mutations. If a mutation is harmful, that creature dies early. If it is beneficial, it lives longer.
A limited form of natural selection would still take place - mutations that increase a person's capacity to reproduce will find themselves propogated a bit more. But that's it, or at least all I can think of. And it's not a very strong selective pressure either.
In a world without death, the type of 'selection' that would occur is people with a propensity towards certain environments would find themselves migrating to live there. As they learn what particular skills and traits they are best at (as a result of inherited traits), they would probably suit themselves to those careers.
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So for bacteria(or whatever evolution says it was) to get to an ape-type ancestor then to a human, is physical death needed? What I am getting at is that evolutionists say man evolved and physical death was apart of the world as God's creation before the fall of man. Many believe that only a spiritual death happened at the fall, not a physical death. But that is not my point at the moment. Just curious if for us to evolve to where we are now(physical form) would death have to have been a player in it?
God Bless
God Bless
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KleinerApfel
When I awake I am still with You
I don't quite understand your question GodSaves.
Death HAS been present from almost the begining of the creation, and so it cannot be removed from either the Darwinian view or the young-earth view, or anything else for that matter.
So how can we speculate whether it is necessary to evolution or not, and why would we try?
It is one thing we actually all agree on - death is there, has been for a long time, and has impacted on the world from then until now.
Sorry if I'm missing the point here - can you explain more?
Blessings, Susana
Death HAS been present from almost the begining of the creation, and so it cannot be removed from either the Darwinian view or the young-earth view, or anything else for that matter.
So how can we speculate whether it is necessary to evolution or not, and why would we try?
It is one thing we actually all agree on - death is there, has been for a long time, and has impacted on the world from then until now.
Sorry if I'm missing the point here - can you explain more?
Blessings, Susana
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Well, one thing I believe is that many have overlooked the meaning of the Tree of Life. As I believe our bodies may not have been created to live forever on their own, I also believe that the Tree of Life was intended to sustain our physical lives forever. I do not think that God ordained physical death as part of His creation. There are many verses that I feel support against this.
When Jesus went to raise Lazarus from the dead, Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was just alseep and He was going to wake him. Later, Jesus said to Martha that her brother would rise again, she said she knew he would but at the resurrection at the last days. Jesus said I am the resurrection and life.
I believe there is a point being made, more then Jesus' compassion for others, when the scriptures tell us that Jesus was deeply moved and troubled in spirit by Lazarus' death and Mary's reaction to it. I don't believe Jesus liked death and its power it has over the human body. THis then makes me think if Jesus doesn't like death then how could He have created it as an original intent before the fall of man. (John 1:1-44)
In Revelations 20:14 death and Hades are the last to be thrown in the lake of fire. If death was the original intent of God before the fall of man why is it disposed of in the end? Remember many theistic evolutionists believe that physical death is part of God's creation before the fall of man. When everthing was perfect as God ordained it to be death was there, they believe. So why when God comes to restore this world and His people back to they way He originally created it, does He cast out death?
Another thought I have had is if physical death is part of God's creation before the fall of man, why is there a physical resurrection of our current bodies? What would be the point of bringing back our current bodies if they were meant to die anyways in the original creation before the fall of man? Wouldn't we just get new bodies? Well Paul preaches that our physical bodies will be resurrected as well as Jesus did. I Corinthians 15:12-32 Paul preaches emphatically about this.
I believe that Jesus came because of the fall of man, just like almost all other Christians do. But I see a similarity between the Tree of Life and Jesus Christ. The Tree of Life was there to sustain us physically, and if we did not eat of the Tree of kNowledge of Good and Evil, we would have sustained spiritually. Jesus came to give us eternal life, if we so chose, eternal life of the spirit and of the body. Otherwise why did Jesus Christ, when raised from the dead, walk on this earth again in His same body? He is God after all and He could have just appeared in Spirit, or another form. He chose rather to come back in His original body, and I think there is a point being made here as well. If we are in Christ, then we were crucified with Him, and we were raised with Him. He will sustain us spiritually as He is now, and when our bodies die, He will raise them back up from the dead, as He did 2000 years ago.
If physical death was apart of God's creation before the fall of man, I believe many of this would be different then written. There are many verses in the Bible that tell us this isn't so.
I hope I have explained my thoughts well, they tend to get a bit all over the place.
God Bless
When Jesus went to raise Lazarus from the dead, Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was just alseep and He was going to wake him. Later, Jesus said to Martha that her brother would rise again, she said she knew he would but at the resurrection at the last days. Jesus said I am the resurrection and life.
I believe there is a point being made, more then Jesus' compassion for others, when the scriptures tell us that Jesus was deeply moved and troubled in spirit by Lazarus' death and Mary's reaction to it. I don't believe Jesus liked death and its power it has over the human body. THis then makes me think if Jesus doesn't like death then how could He have created it as an original intent before the fall of man. (John 1:1-44)
In Revelations 20:14 death and Hades are the last to be thrown in the lake of fire. If death was the original intent of God before the fall of man why is it disposed of in the end? Remember many theistic evolutionists believe that physical death is part of God's creation before the fall of man. When everthing was perfect as God ordained it to be death was there, they believe. So why when God comes to restore this world and His people back to they way He originally created it, does He cast out death?
Another thought I have had is if physical death is part of God's creation before the fall of man, why is there a physical resurrection of our current bodies? What would be the point of bringing back our current bodies if they were meant to die anyways in the original creation before the fall of man? Wouldn't we just get new bodies? Well Paul preaches that our physical bodies will be resurrected as well as Jesus did. I Corinthians 15:12-32 Paul preaches emphatically about this.
I believe that Jesus came because of the fall of man, just like almost all other Christians do. But I see a similarity between the Tree of Life and Jesus Christ. The Tree of Life was there to sustain us physically, and if we did not eat of the Tree of kNowledge of Good and Evil, we would have sustained spiritually. Jesus came to give us eternal life, if we so chose, eternal life of the spirit and of the body. Otherwise why did Jesus Christ, when raised from the dead, walk on this earth again in His same body? He is God after all and He could have just appeared in Spirit, or another form. He chose rather to come back in His original body, and I think there is a point being made here as well. If we are in Christ, then we were crucified with Him, and we were raised with Him. He will sustain us spiritually as He is now, and when our bodies die, He will raise them back up from the dead, as He did 2000 years ago.
If physical death was apart of God's creation before the fall of man, I believe many of this would be different then written. There are many verses in the Bible that tell us this isn't so.
I hope I have explained my thoughts well, they tend to get a bit all over the place.
God Bless
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In the following verse death could refer to the separation from God, the state of being away from His fellowship as He had with Adam in the garden.
|v12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(NewT:Romans 5:12)
It could also refer to a literal death in that when God covered Adam and Eve with skins there were a couple dead animals out there.
|v21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
(OldT:Genesis 3:21)
As far as I can tell the death of those animals is the first mention of a physical death since Adam still lived. In any case, without sin those animals would not have had to die, the shedding of blood by sacrifice.
I think the question next becomes was there death before the fall? If not then that could play a part in the way we view the possibilty of evolution. If evolution requires a physical death then it could not have existed before Adam. That would pinpoint the literal creation of Man.
|v12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(NewT:Romans 5:12)
It could also refer to a literal death in that when God covered Adam and Eve with skins there were a couple dead animals out there.
|v21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
(OldT:Genesis 3:21)
As far as I can tell the death of those animals is the first mention of a physical death since Adam still lived. In any case, without sin those animals would not have had to die, the shedding of blood by sacrifice.
I think the question next becomes was there death before the fall? If not then that could play a part in the way we view the possibilty of evolution. If evolution requires a physical death then it could not have existed before Adam. That would pinpoint the literal creation of Man.
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One quick note here:
If our physical bodies are raised then it would have to be a state before death. What about cremation or someone being totally burned to ashes in a fire? There are other ways a body could no longer exist and I'm sure there are many instances of death where there was nothing left.
The resurrection body is a very fascinating topic unto itself.
If our physical bodies are raised then it would have to be a state before death. What about cremation or someone being totally burned to ashes in a fire? There are other ways a body could no longer exist and I'm sure there are many instances of death where there was nothing left.
The resurrection body is a very fascinating topic unto itself.
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KleinerApfel
When I awake I am still with You
PotLuck said:
There's always something left.
It may be ashes, it may even be particles unseen by the human eye, but God can reassemble whatever He desires, and the resurrection body will be perfect - WOW!
Blessings, Susana
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JohnR7
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The Garden of Eden was different from the rest of the earth though. Many believe that the Garden was to expand and fill the earth and when God restores this earth it will be as it was in Eden.GodSaves said:
2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
There could very well have been death outside of Eden. That could be why so many people desire to enter back into the promises of God and Paradise or the Garden that Adam and Eve were cast out of.
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The Lord is my banner said:
Well, He made me. Whatcha wanna bet He'd still have my blueprints?
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JohnR7
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John Wesley wrote a interesting sermon about this at: http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-137.stmPotLuck said:
He feels that the matter and energy that makes us up is dedicated. It can be borrowed, by other life forms, but at the resurrection, it will be gathered back together again.
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When it comes to the resurrection body I'm not going to hide the fact that the subject totally blows me away. When something like that happens then all I can do is have faith that what God has determined for me is good for me.
The past few posts have helped a lot.
The past few posts have helped a lot.
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No. Evolution is "descent with modification". So, as long as the offspring differ from the parents it doesn't matter whether the parents are alive or dead.GodSaves said:
Natural selection needs different reproductive success. The losers in the Struggle for Existence would simply produce fewer offspring than the winners.
However, the nature of all organisms is that organisms can make more offspring than the environment can support. So, when God creates kinds to produce after their kind, He gave them the ability to produce so many of their kind that there would not be food or space for all of them. So creationism requires physical death.
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Not really. A successful variation has more kids. It has nothing to do with living longer. True, the longer an individual lives the more opportunity it has to make kids, but you could also have a mutation in a male such that his sperm made the female ovulate when she had sex with him. In that case, he would be more efficient at producing kids and could live the same length of time and still produce more kids.tyreth said:
FYI, mutations aren't selection pressure. Selection comes from the environment, not from the variation.
How anthropocentric! FYI, humans are only one species out of millions and evolution applies to all species. Just how does a plant migrate?
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KleinerApfel
When I awake I am still with You
PotLuck said:
That's certainly what I was taught.
My dogs bring all sorts of weeds into my garden from the burrs they collect in their coats on their walks in the woods miles away.
The birds have set a number of plants in my garden, as has the wind.
Another thing - people help plants migrate; by cultivation and transporting food!
Blessings, Susana
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But the plant is not "migrating", is it? It's still stuck in one place. The seeds are being spread. So the next generation is in a new place. Descent with modification.PotLuck said:Heck, I dunno. Bird droppings, wind, on the fur of animals .. <shrugs>
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Potluck and Lord, this is what Potluck originally said:
In a world without death, the type of 'selection' that would occur is people with a propensity towards certain environments would find themselves migrating to live there.
That is people picking up and moving within one generation. But you aren't talking about that with plants. If the individual plant is in the "wrong" environment, the plant is stuck there. It can't move to live in a different environment. Instead, you are talking about pure luck that the wind, animals, and birds move the seeds to a certain environment. Do you realize what you are doing? You are invoking pure chance. No longer are plants designed for the environment in which they are placed, but are where they are because of pure chance that seeds got carried there from somewhere else. The same applies to oysters, mussels, etc. Is that where you really want to go with the idea of "selection" under special creation? Yet selection is so obvious that you want to use it. A bit of a dilemma, isn't it?
BTW, remember that physical death is necessary for creationism. Without it, the reproduction ability designed by God into each species would have each species fill the earth in a few generations, crowding out all other species.
But why is physical death so bad? If physical death means a spiritual life with God, why does creationism consider it so bad to have physical death before the Fall? Why isn't the Fall spiritual death as it says in Genesis 2?
In a world without death, the type of 'selection' that would occur is people with a propensity towards certain environments would find themselves migrating to live there.
That is people picking up and moving within one generation. But you aren't talking about that with plants. If the individual plant is in the "wrong" environment, the plant is stuck there. It can't move to live in a different environment. Instead, you are talking about pure luck that the wind, animals, and birds move the seeds to a certain environment. Do you realize what you are doing? You are invoking pure chance. No longer are plants designed for the environment in which they are placed, but are where they are because of pure chance that seeds got carried there from somewhere else. The same applies to oysters, mussels, etc. Is that where you really want to go with the idea of "selection" under special creation? Yet selection is so obvious that you want to use it.
A bit of a dilemma, isn't it?BTW, remember that physical death is necessary for creationism. Without it, the reproduction ability designed by God into each species would have each species fill the earth in a few generations, crowding out all other species.
But why is physical death so bad? If physical death means a spiritual life with God, why does creationism consider it so bad to have physical death before the Fall? Why isn't the Fall spiritual death as it says in Genesis 2?
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