Pastoral expectations

[Paidiske]

A conversation I had today left me wondering what most people expect. When someone has a pastoral need and wants prayer or a conversation with their minister, do they expect their minister to initiate that? Do they expect to have to reach out and indicate their desire? Do they expect something else?

Generally, while I'm very happy to make time when I know of someone's need, I get very frustrated with the expectation that I'll be mind reader enough to know without being asked. And I especially dislike the situation that happens when they don't ask, but then complain to others that I didn't visit or call. But it seems some people genuinely think they shouldn't have to, and I'm wondering how prevalent that is...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There is also the matter of privacy. When you take the initiative there is always the risk of, "why don't you mind your own business?"

I think reaching out and offering when a need is noticed is a risk worth taking. But needs cannot always be noticed. Two way street.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think that in general, the laity should be expected to make their needs known to us, for as you said, we are usually not clairvoyant.*

The only exception to this might be if a member of our congregation is hospitalized, or, God forbid, dies unexpectedly, but for us to be notified, there has a protocol where we can be informed if something happens to them, for example, an identification wristband with our contact number in addition to that of their closest friend and vital information such their blood type, allergies, pre-existing medical conditions and a list of prescription medical drugs and ongoing treatments the patient is actively recieving, such as dialysis. Many people in the US wear leather wristbands or metal tags worn on a neck chain similiar in appearance to military ”dog tags” that contain the sort of information I just outlined. These are particularly widespreadmam those who have a history of epileptic seizures or those vulnerable to severe allergic reactions who have to carry Epi-Pens for emergency use; essentially I am suggesting that if a member wanted to, and we agreed, they could include our contact information on the wristband or dog tag.

If we agreed to serve as an emergency point of contact, we could among other things contact friends and relatives according to the instructions of the parishioner in the event of a serious injury or death.**

Of course if we agree to provide such a service of emergency pastoral care for the parishioner and/or their relatives, depending on whether or not the injury or illness was fatal and whether or not we were able to respond in time to provide pastoral care in extremis, it goes without saying we should not engage in is anything relating to the reading of the will, financial planning even for final expenses, et cetera. The reason for this is that these activities cross into the areas of competence of professional services firms such as law firm and financial planners. Now, I am aware of clergy who also are licensed to practice law, or accounting, or financial planning, including controversially an Eastern Orthodox priest. This is controversial because the Council of Trullo adopted a very wise canon law that prohibits Eastern Orthodox clergy from managing the finances or the estates of their parishioners, and the commentary St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite provides on this canon explains the rationale very clearly, which to express it in modern language, if we agree to manage the financial affairs of someone in our pastoral care, this is a conflict of interest, a boundary violation, and a risk to the reputation of the church and the faith of the parishioner if the clergyman in question causes the loss of some or all of the money, whether through incompetence or embezzlement and other forms of intentional fraud.


*With a few possible exceptions among monastics; I have had some interesting experiences at monasteries in the desert (putting it mildly, and not counting the time a van I was in traveling from a monastery to the nearby guesthouse on an unpaved road late at night had to slam on the brakes due to a deputy sheriff in a modern version of a Dune Buggy chasing someone in a 4x4 offroad across the desert at an insane speed; we had to literally wait for the dust to settle before proceeding) which preclude me from being a cessationist, but what may or may not be happening in monasteries in the wilderness with elderly men and women who have spent a lifetime of holy celibacy focusing on the practice of Hesychasm or other means of prayer cannot be expected of parish priests or cathedral chapters, in my opinion, and I think in the opinions of most people who have been blessed with simimiliar experiences to what I was blessed with, indeed really contra the views only of a minority in the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal denominations who practice a novel form of clericalism in which clergy are expected, more than laity, to demonstrate evidence of “being baptized in the spirit”, of charisma which amount to magical powers, which is a view I disagree with, a pneumatological error of neo-clericalism, examples of which might be the Toronto Blessing, and various practitioners of “faith-healing” and what can only be described as “stage exorcisms,“ essentially the sort of strange revivalist service led by very intemperate men who often own business jets and who are in tend to pronounce the word ”Lord” with two syllables.

**In the US, by the way, many police departments and county sheriffs have chaplains recruited from churches in the community who among other things, especially in the police departments, assist the police officers and deputy sheriffs with death notifications, and I have been asked to join the chaplaincy team of a local PD, which I hope to do if my health improves (police chaplains it must be stressed are normally unpaid volunteers, including both of the chaplains at the local PD, both of whom are pastors from local churches who are basically agreeing to be on call to assist officers in the event of a death notice or situations where the officers themselves could use assistance, for example, something exceptionally unpleasant, such as a fellow officer getting hurt in the line of duty. These chaplains are not sworn law enforcement officers and do not have powers of arrest, blue or red strobe lights on their cars, department-issued firearms, or any other items which would attract liars, psychopaths and posers from volunteering as chaplains. Sheriffs departments also have chaplaincy programs for the jails, which in the US accommodate prisoners being held on remand, that is to say, without bail, either because they cannot afford bail or have been denied bail due to the gravity of the offense and are awaiting trial in a state court (and sometimes a federal court), and persons convicted of misdemeanors, which are crimes punishable by not more than a year in county jail, whereas prisons or penitentiaries handle persons convicted of a felony, which usually involves a sentence of more than one year, up to life imprisonment or in some states and the federal system, capital punishment, and they have chaplains as well.

 

[dzheremi]

It is important that we who are among the laity remember that the priest of our parish oversees not just us as individuals, but the entire congregation. So it is wise to think of things in terms like that. Is my problem or need really greater or more pressing than that of my neighbor, whose circumstances I likely do not even know or in many cases can't know? And if I can't know, I should assume they are greater than mine, just as I would assume that I should not be given any sort of reserved place in anything, but that the minister of the Lord may see fit to place me there (e.g., re: disability accommodations that I need, which it is still my duty to make abouna aware of). Remember that it is as Abba Anthony put it, that our life and our death are with our brothers, and act accordingly. As concerns our fathers, then (with apologies to you, Paidiske, if that comes across as dismissing your role as a servant in your own church as a consequence of your sex; it is unintentional, as there is simply no other way to phrase it while still remaining faithful to the practices of my own church with regard to how we address priests), how much more are we to treat them with care and reverence, and not burden them with undue burdens that if we are honest with ourselves we can recognize as coming from our own laziness and/or trepidation, both of which are to be fought against? No, in reality both the priest and the penitent have their work to do, and are negligent if they expect the other to be the one to reach out 100% of the time. If I am sick and get progressively sicker as a result of refusing a doctor, how can my condition be the doctor's fault? At the same time, if I show up to a prescheduled appointment and find the doctor unprepared, sloppy, rude, etc., then yeah, that's on them. I did my part, in that case. So it takes both, and an open attitude of both to working together.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The most important aspect in my opinion is the pastor should be approachable. I've felt very comfortable with coming to my last two pastors with any problems. I can easily call them both a good trustworthy friend. I've never felt that a pastor should know that I have a problem or need and take the initiative. Except for the obvious like The Liturgist said. I'm quite sure if I was hospitalized they would at the very least give me a phone call.

 

[Paidiske]

It is important that we who are among the laity remember that the priest of our parish oversees not just us as individuals, but the entire congregation. So it is wise to think of things in terms like that. Is my problem or need really greater or more pressing than that of my neighbor, whose circumstances I likely do not even know or in many cases can't know? And if I can't know, I should assume they are greater than mine, just as I would assume that I should not be given any sort of reserved place in anything...

While I do apprecite this point, I'd just note that in my experience, the people who bear it in mind and hesitate to call or ask for a visit on this basis, often in fact have quite real need which merits attention, but know that "You're so busy with so many things I didn't want to ask." And that's not healthy either!

 

[lismore]

A conversation I had today left me wondering what most people expect. When someone has a pastoral need and wants prayer or a conversation with their minister, do they expect their minister to initiate that?

There is an elderly gentleman in my church, a former elder in another church. I kept in touch with him during Covid lockdowns etc. He was often stressed about the level of contact he received from the church. And sometimes, like this week, when the street ices up he gets stressed that no-one nearby has called him to offer a lift to church, or very depressed that he will be alone for Christmas and New Year.

He expects pastors to be pro-active in meeting his needs. I guess some people expect a minister to initiate things. The only way to know would be to spend quality time getting to know them. When you get to know someone you get to understand how they think. What their greatest fears are. How you can help them before they ask for it. God Bless and Happy Christmas

 

[The Liturgist]

The most important aspect in my opinion is the pastor should be approachable. I've felt very comfortable with coming to my last two pastors with any problems. I can easily call them both a good trustworthy friend. I've never felt that a pastor should know that I have a problem or need and take the initiative. Except for the obvious like The Liturgist said. I'm quite sure if I was hospitalized they would at the very least give me a phone call.

Assuming they knew you were hospitalized, any good priest should at least call you. However, you do need to make provisions so that we are informed. Also in the US because of HIPAA, our broad-ranging patient privacy legislation which one of the few uncontroversial aspects of our health care system, if you want your clergy to be informed about what is wrong with you so they can communicate the news to friends or relatives, you need to specifically authorize that with a HIPAA release form.

 

[Tuur]

I'm not voting, because expectations are going to vary from region to region and community to community. Death and illness are two where it would be nice if a minister dropped by. For other things, I wouldn't necessarily appreciate it.

 

[Paidiske]

However, you do need to make provisions so that we are informed.

I think this is the heart of my frustration. Don't leave me out of the loop, and then complain that I didn't visit, or that your expectations weren't met. But I didn't know whether a different view would be very prevalent.

 

[dzheremi]

If they don't say anything, and you don't notice anything, then how's anyone supposed to know what's going on? I can't imagine it would ever be appropriate to react that way to perceived deficiencies in pastoral care, just as I would never assume that a priest just knows my issues by osmosis or something, like he's Fr. Amazing Kreskin. This is one of the many reasons why we are to avail ourselves of confession, which in Orthodoxy is done face to face (no RC-style box or screen), with the priest who (ideally) frequently communes you*. It is with this frequent contact that the priest will begin to get an idea of your spiritual maladies, though of course in all cases it is God Who does the cleansing. (While abouna says certain low-voiced prayers over the bowed head of the penitent at certain points during the confessional ritual that I have for obvious reasons never taken special notice of at the time, there are also points where the priest and the penitent will pray together. It's a very beautiful, healing, and bonding event, truly embodying the reconciliation of the repentant sinner with God through His Church and His instrument, the minister.)

* in the Coptic Orthodox tradition in particular, frequent communion is the norm. Perhaps curiously, it is not so in our daughter Church in East Africa among the Orthodox Tewahedo of Ethiopia and Eritrea, who as far as I can tell have developed over millennia a very strict understanding of what "The holies are for the holy" (the priest's proclamation before distributing the Eucharist) means. We had a young Ethiopian woman with us for the first year or so when I was attending St. Bishoy, a really kind and brilliant woman (she was some kind of nuclear scientist working at Los Alamos research laboratory), who never took communion. No one could understand why, since that is very unusual to Coptic people, but when they asked abouna he rightfully told them that it is a private matter and not for anyone to speculate on. That put an end to the questions.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Assuming they knew you were hospitalized, any good priest should at least call you. However, you do need to make provisions so that we are informed. Also in the US because of HIPAA, our broad-ranging patient privacy legislation which one of the few uncontroversial aspects of our health care system, if you want your clergy to be informed about what is wrong with you so they can communicate the news to friends or relatives, you need to specifically authorize that with a HIPAA release form.

I meant along the lines of friends and relatives letting them know I was in the hospital.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think this is the heart of my frustration. Don't leave me out of the loop, and then complain that I didn't visit, or that your expectations weren't met. But I didn't know whether a different view would be very prevalent.

Well fortunately right now my current congregations, seem to have some common sense around this, or it could be that because of the size of my missions, since I am able to frequently follow up with everyone in either mission who consents to it, and since these are small communities, its a bit different from having a larger congregation or a congregation in a more urban area, such as the one I have been considering placing in an area which is frustratingly far away from any of the churches there that I like. But within a large enough parish it is certainly not unreasonable to expect some members might not be able to logically grasp certain concepts, like the idea we need to be informed if, for example, you are hospitalized, if you want a visit. Also, if a relative has been admitted to the hospital, their family members might be distraught and I was always taught to expect that they might snap at us for irrational reasons, which I have since experienced, and I think it is important to understand such irritability as natural when the relatives are upset because they are worried for distraught about the condition of their loved one.

I think there is a partial solution when it comes to ensuring that people know how to keep us in the loop and what we do not automatically know, but also what to do to get ahold of us for various scenarios: for example, if their loved one is hospitalized, or if they desire a visit, or in churches that do this, including mine, if they would like to schedule the annual blessing of their residence or another kind of Euchologion-type service, and that is to include this information centrally in the material that your parish distributes to members and/or attendees.

 

[The Liturgist]

I meant along the lines of friends and relatives letting them know I was in the hospital.

We still need to be informed that you are in the hospital, but yes, I see it as part of my job to, if you request it, inform your relatives, and there is a process for providing myself and the other members of the leadership with names and numbers of people you want informed if you are hospitalized.

 

[The Liturgist]

I can't imagine it would ever be appropriate to react that way to perceived deficiencies in pastoral care

Sometimes people get irrationally upset when they have a relative who has been admitted to the hospital for an emergency or who has reposed, and I was trained to expect that and to not take it personally.

 

[Paidiske]

I can't imagine it would ever be appropriate to react that way to perceived deficiencies in pastoral care, just as I would never assume that a priest just knows my issues by osmosis or something, like he's Fr. Amazing Kreskin.

I think, in part, this reflects a changing landscape of ministry, at least in my context. Not that long ago - within living memory of many of my older folks, in particular - clergy workloads were, if not small, at least significantly smaller than they are today, and there was much more time to focus on incidental pastoral care. Folks older than me remember fondly the days when it was normal for the priest to visit more or less every parishioner from time to time, for no particular reason, and they probably did know their people's issues much better than I do.

Fast forward to now, our demographics have shifted, priests are doing a lot more with a lot less support, (I'm looking after four churches where thirty years ago there were three priests, for example), administrative workload has increased, compliance workload (once unheard of) is now a major and stressful part of our work; where once people just came to church, and provided you didn't abuse them and your services were more or less what was expected, your church would have enough people and money to do its thing, now trying to engage the wider community in mission and outreach is a major focus of our work; and so on. One of my colleagues memorably summed up this situation as the current group of clergy being expected to "make bricks without straw." Or another colleague, a lovely retired priest, put it to me this way recently: When he was young, there was too much work, but you could manage by ignoring the things that didn't really matter. Today, clergy have the difficult task of deciding which things that really do matter they will neglect.

But: a lot of this is invisible to ordinary folks who attend church. So they are left wondering why their current priest doesn't seem to care for them the way Father So-and-so fifty years ago used to. So where I feel like, "Hey guys, I'm drowning not waving with work over here, surely the least you can do is send me a text to say hey, I'm struggling and I'd love a visit," they're wondering why they haven't heard from me. It's completely understandable, but incredibly frustrating.

 

[Paidiske]

I think there is a partial solution when it comes to ensuring that people know how to keep us in the loop and what we do not automatically know, but also what to do to get ahold of us for various scenarios: for example, if their loved one is hospitalized, or if they desire a visit, or in churches that do this, including mine, if they would like to schedule the annual blessing of their residence or another kind of Euchologion-type service, and that is to include this information centrally in the material that your parish distributes to members and/or attendees.

Yes, I probably need to find a way to communicate a bit better.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, I probably need to find a way to communicate a bit better.

Well my thought is that including instructions to parishioners on how to receive pastoral care should be included in material which might likely be printed material that is given to new people, or even put on the pews, at least some of it.

Now at the Episcopal church run by my retired friend Fr. Steve, who I just found out has been dealing with irreversible blindness also has been battling cancer, so please pray for him, the parish handed out a fairly thick packet, about 30 pages, American A4-equivalent (what we call 8 1/2” x 11”) at every liturgy (except, I think, at some of the early morning said services I preferred to attend) which included the hymns and the liturgical text for the service, information which was also entirely present in the Books of Common Prayer and 1980 edition hymnals found in all the pews, except for the text of their monthly contemporary services*, and within this folder there was quite a bit of information, and it would have been hard to find. So I think the information has to be presented well and organized well, in a concise manner, so if printed, it should be in a small discrete booklet.

At my two mission parishes, we call this the Church Services Guide (which will change to Parish Services Guide once I deem that these have met the size to be redesignated as regular parishes, which will likely be once we complete the discernment and affiliation process with a larger denomination) and we do print the order of worship and hymns, but in our case that is because of the lack of a single acceptable hymnal that is still in print, but the two are not combined, but are rather distinct, labelled differently, and everyone who serves as an usher (and this is done on a rotating basis) is told what the two documents are, and when greeting newcomers, to say “Good (morning/afternoon/evening), and welcome to (mission name) this is our order of worship for (today/tonight), and this booklet is a guide to our church, our worship services and community programs and contact information for our leadership.”

Now, that is just what we use based on our needs. I highly value good, legible graphics design and personally involved myself in the design of the templates for those documents, because at one point in my career I was a graphics designer.

So my main suggestion is that you reach out to a competent graphics designer in your community, perhaps you might providentially find one who has worked with other Anglican churches in your area who volunteers or offers a good rate, since one would not need to hire Landor Associates or Wolff Olins or Pentagram to do parish brochures; alternately a student graphics designer looking to build their portfolio who is young and enthusiastic, who understands information design and how to efficiently communicate information, and who also has competence when it comes to the parish website and can ensure consistency and ease of use. Because you would not want to print information on how to get pastoral care and/or put it on your website, but have it get buried in a sea of excess information like the information in the 30 page packets the Episcopal Church would print before each service (which had to cost a fortune, by the way, as the quality of the printing was frankly extreme overkill given the weekly attendance at both the said and choral service seldom exceeded 150 and was usually around fifteen including all ministers and acolytes at the said service and sixty including all choristers, ministers and acolytes at the choral service.

By the way, many churches these days, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, suffer from, through no fault of their own, but rather as a result of increasing demands of the community and difficulty in communicating information with parishioners, what I would describe as a superabundance of verbal announcements, and a surprisingly large number of people have told me they find this annoying, so adding an extra announcement to handle this issue is probably not a good idea.


*which were the only contemporary services I have ever enjoyed, because they were done in an elegant and reverent manner, and also perhaps because I was invited to refine the liturgy for them further, and musically they inclined to jazz and Latin guitar rather than CCM or rock, and when it comes to jazz, we enter into a grey area.

Speaking of jazz, one noted jazz musician, John Coltrane, was an extremely devout Christian, to the point that some venerate him as a saint, and in the Bay Area there is a parish under his patronage belonging to the African Orthodox Church, which is an interesting African American denomination related to the Old Catholic Movement, and of the various people commemorated on the ceiling of the controversial Episcopalian parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco, he is one whose presence does not strike me as objectionable, unlike say, the Kangxi Emperor, because why anyone would paint an icon of a dictator who banned and suppressed with capital punishment Christianity from China just makes no sense to me.

 

[Tolworth John]

Basically your damned if you do and damned if you don't!

People are people, awkward, prickerly and highly vunerable.
You can make appeals in your service, have notes on noticeboards, set up churchwide wats ap groups etc and people either won't bother or fail to know about it.

As a sheperd you can only care for those who are in the flock. Those who stray you can chass, but if they won't respond you have to leave them.

Personally I would rather be shot because of what I've done rather than for what I haven't done.

Do what you can.

 

[seeker2122]

There are only two kinds of people this world, those that are hurting and those that hurting but don't know it.
While I do believe that members should talk to someone or let someone know they need to talk or need prayer,
some of them might feel hesitant to initiate. For persons in ministerial positions, even if you are not clairvoyant
I would say the need to initiate at least once in awhile would be on your side. Even if members do not let anyone
know, it is better that a person in ministerial position makes the attempt to initiate and then gets rejected by the
member versus the member initiating and getting rejected by the minister. The former happens a lot, but the latter
should never (if possible) happen. If it does happen, pray that there will be enough grace to recover from that blemish
and still be able to initiate contact again.


I remember a long time in my life, when I was in a position of responsibility (like a shepherd tending over their flock of sheep),
I always thought it was somewhat unfair that I could be rejected in my many attempts to make an effort (and feel hurt about it,
or discouraged) but then when they need something from me and ask and I reject them, it's my fault. I can't ever bring up the
fact they did it to me too when I tried to initiate things that would be helpful.

So it seems to me that because the one who is in position of authority and responsibility must be able to handle rejection
and never fault the sheep for rejecting your help, but the moment the sheep needs the shepherd's help, the shepherd cannot
afford to return in kind and reject them and say "it's even steven now". That will cost you your reputation, your job, your position,
and that's all it would take, one or two of those instances and you are cooked......but you can initiate them and get rejected week
after week and there would be no penalty against the sheep for rejecting your initiation.