Observations : Create Your Own God

[ScottA]

If you have anything but unsupported appeals to your own authority and superiority come back to me.

Are you willing to accept the terms of advancement?

 

[quatona]

Are you willing to accept the terms of advancement?

Depends on what you mean by that.
Something about the previous conversation makes me suspect that they come down to "accept ScottA as the unquestionable lecturer".

 

[ScottA]

Depends on what you mean by that.
Something about the previous conversation makes me suspect that they come down to "accept ScottA as the unquestionable lecturer".

No. If I were a student at a university that taught things you did not know - I would just be able to point you in the right direction, even tell you a thing or two. How is it that you do not even know that is where we are and what we are doing here? Do you put up defenses against everyone in the admissions line, or is it just me - 'cause you're being weird.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So, then...everything you do not understand...is "nonsensical?" -

Did I say that things I don't understand are nonsensical? No, I did not.

Because, that was critical information. If you do not understand it, you will not be able to advance.

It wasn't even really information, let alone "critical" information. It was an assertion without any backing evidence. The only thing to "understand" is that bald faced assertions should be ignored, because there's an infinite number of them. Believing in all of them is insanely illogical, because without evidence to discern truthfulness, then all are equally valid.

Prove that there's "another world" from which evidence can't be understood and you'll have something. If you can't, then I'll assume that this "other world" does not exist, like any rational person would.

 

[ScottA]

Did I say that things I don't understand are nonsensical? No, I did not.



It wasn't even really information, let alone "critical" information. It was an assertion without any backing evidence. The only thing to "understand" is that bald faced assertions should be ignored, because there's an infinite number of them. Believing in all of them is insanely illogical, because without evidence to discern truthfulness, then all are equally valid.

Prove that there's "another world" from which evidence can't be understood and you'll have something. If you can't, then I'll assume that this "other world" does not exist, like any rational person would.

Look...I am not going to keep repeating myself. You think you are the expert, fine.

But...if we are going to have an intelligent conversation...then you need to be able to read and understand one simple truth: The evidence you are asking for is not transferable from that world to this world. Is that clear?

 

[MotherFirefly]

I don't think it is something that can be proven. The 'proof' we have for things around us, laws of the universe, are all based upon observations and assumptions that we believe to be true. We have faith that if we jump, we will land. I am not going to pretend I know much, but I understand that we can explain, down to the finite detail, how things 'work', or at least, how we think they work, with numbers and assumptions based on theories based on observations. Man has created these checks and balances, these equations, these theories, in order to make some sense of the world. To give us a sense of 'understanding', even 'control'. To explain the unexplainable.
But in the end, these theories, equations, and numbers were all created by man. Even if it makes sense to what we know as sense, in the assumption that a God exists as we believe him to exist, theories and equations created by man to understand the effects of the univers on man, have no chance of working here.

I have always questioned, wondered, looked to scientific evidence for an explanation to something like God and Heaven and the soul. I have come to an acceptance that it will never happen... I will never be able to use a string of numbers to explain God. We will never be able to observe chemistry, biology, mathematics, physics, forces physical and invisible, or anything else, take those findings and say, without a doubt, because of 'this' leading to 'this', I have concrete evidence of a being similar to God. These fundamentals of science, the theories and laws we have created, are all based on what we can observe. Something created by man, all relating to what we know of ourselves, our planet, our universe, can never give us the answers to something not of this realm.

It is unfortunate, even dissapointing, to have to trade reason and understanding, for faith in something unknown. It makes us vulnerable. Causes us to feel weak, stupid, because we are no longer in control. I understand how hard letting go of wanting to know can be.

You will never find an answer to 'prove God exists'. No one can offer 'proof' to God existing. Anyone who tries, is in a state of denial. Or forgotten what they are even arguing about.
There is no proof. There never will be.
It is faith. It is hope. It is belief.
Only when you give up trying to understand, will you understand.

To put it bluntly, gentlemen:
You are wasting your time.


Disclaimer: it is very entertaining though. Keep going if you enjoy it this much.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I detect an interesting change of tone here...

That is not true.

Because you say so?

It is apparent that you are [admittedly] unqualified in the area of the bigger spiritual part of life.

I have more useful qualifications.

Sight cannot be "substantiated" to the blind. You can stop demanding it. Get real.

I don't recall demanding anything, and 'getting real' is what I do - I recommend it; myths and fantasies can be entertaining, but let's face it, they're not real.

The whole universe was "created" and you have been duped. We're trying to help you see past the illusion. But you are certainly welcome to pass...but then, why even make a case?

I'm not making a case, I'm questioning beliefs. As I said, I'd rather have palpable reality than myths and fantasies.

As for the illusion, be careful out there - don't step in front of any 'illusory' cars or buses

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Look...I am not going to keep repeating myself. You think you are the expert, fine.

But...if we are going to have an intelligent conversation...then you need to be able to read and understand one simple truth: The evidence you are asking for is not transferable from that world to this world. Is that clear?

What seems to be clear is your idea that people should believe anything without actual evidence. Let me see if I can turn the tables to see if I can get you to understand.

I have some magic beans, which when planted produce giant plants whose leaves are pure gold. You can't tell they're magic by looking at them, the magic comes from the "magic world". I can't show you that the magic world exists, because the evidence isn't transferable. Will you buy the beans for a million dollars?

If we're going to have an intelligent conversation, you have to say that buying the beans would be crazy pants, because there's no evidence they're actually magical. You also have to make the connection between the crazy pants of blindly accepting my claim with the crazy pants of blindly accepting your claim. It's illogical to believe either claim without evidence.

Since you're unable to provide evidence, I can once again assume your claim isn't true.

Tell me, do you believe any claim without evidence?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

There is no proof. There never will be.
It is faith. It is hope. It is belief.

Do you believe everything you hope to be true?

 

[MotherFirefly]

Do you believe everything you hope to be true?

I would be lying if I said there wasn't doubt, a little voice that spews unencouraging words in my mind. I have always questioned it, I don't see that stopping anytime soon. But, by attempting to let go of these unanswerable questions, I have found a lot of peace. I used to be so angry, and a lot of questioning was derived from that, and vice versa.
Heck, if I was talking to myself two years ago, I would have called myself weak and stupid for abandoning reason for faith.

There may be some magic string of words I can use to cause you to understand what I feel, but I will not claim to know them. Instead, I will leave it at this:
I believe that having faith in what I hope to be true, has changed me from the inside. It has changed the decisions I make, how I see the world, how I treat others. It has made me a better person, a better mother, a better friend. When before, my life was filled with questions and darkness, I now know what peace and love feel like.
It isn't something I can prove to you, or some answer I can give you, but a mindset, a feeling, a hope.

It is illogical to look for oranges at an applestand. It is also illogical to try to sell apples to those who want oranges.

We must find what is worth living for. If unanswered questions and the simple concrete evidence of being alive is enough for you, who am I to argue that?
It is when you realize that you cannot live for that any more... When you long for something deeper. Then, will you understand what I feel.

Then, will you find your answers.

 

[quatona]

No. If I were a student at a university that taught things you did not know - I would just be able to point you in the right direction, even tell you a thing or two.

...but we aren´t at a university that teaches things I don´t know.

How is it that you do not even know that is where we are and what we are doing here?

Last time I checked this was the Philosophy Forum of a discussion board; and in particular we are in a thread created by BriannaRose inviting us to give her our thoughts about a certain issue.
What did you think where we were?

Do you put up defenses against everyone in the admissions line, or is it just me

It´s just you. I don´t put up defenses against you - I just don´t acknowledge your self-proclaimed yet unevidenced and unsubstantiated expertise and superiority.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I would be lying if I said there wasn't doubt, a little voice that spews unencouraging words in my mind. I have always questioned it, I don't see that stopping anytime soon. But, by attempting to let go of these unanswerable questions, I have found a lot of peace. I used to be so angry, and a lot of questioning was derived from that, and vice versa.
Heck, if I was talking to myself two years ago, I would have called myself weak and stupid for abandoning reason for faith.

There may be some magic string of words I can use to cause you to understand what I feel, but I will not claim to know them. Instead, I will leave it at this:
I believe that having faith in what I hope to be true, has changed me from the inside. It has changed the decisions I make, how I see the world, how I treat others. It has made me a better person, a better mother, a better friend. When before, my life was filled with questions and darkness, I now know what peace and love feel like.
It isn't something I can prove to you, or some answer I can give you, but a mindset, a feeling, a hope.

It is illogical to look for oranges at an applestand. It is also illogical to try to sell apples to those who want oranges.

We must find what is worth living for. If unanswered questions and the simple concrete evidence of being alive is enough for you, who am I to argue that?
It is when you realize that you cannot live for that any more... When you long for something deeper. Then, will you understand what I feel.

Then, will you find your answers.

Oh, I was a Christian for a long time. So I remember those feelings...

 

[MotherFirefly]

Oh, I was a Christian for a long time. So I remember those feelings...

What happened? Inquisitive mind get the better of you?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

What happened? Inquisitive mind get the better of you?

Lol. Something like that.

 

[MotherFirefly]

Lol. Something like that.

We are all in the same maze, looking for a different exit.

 

[ScottA]

I detect an interesting change of tone here...
Because you say so?
I have more useful qualifications.
I don't recall demanding anything, and 'getting real' is what I do - I recommend it; myths and fantasies can be entertaining, but let's face it, they're not real.
I'm not making a case, I'm questioning beliefs. As I said, I'd rather have palpable reality than myths and fantasies.

As for the illusion, be careful out there - don't step in front of any 'illusory' cars or buses

"Substantiated" was your term.

And it fits with this world, but the rub here, exists because you have come to a web forum that is not founded in this world - and you can't seem to grasp that, and you are unwilling to address it on its own terms. If you could grasp that idea, we might actually have a conversation about it, instead of rehashing the things of this world, which do not apply.

 

[ScottA]

What seems to be clear is your idea that people should believe anything without actual evidence. Let me see if I can turn the tables to see if I can get you to understand.

I have some magic beans, which when planted produce giant plants whose leaves are pure gold. You can't tell they're magic by looking at them, the magic comes from the "magic world". I can't show you that the magic world exists, because the evidence isn't transferable. Will you buy the beans for a million dollars?

If we're going to have an intelligent conversation, you have to say that buying the beans would be crazy pants, because there's no evidence they're actually magical. You also have to make the connection between the crazy pants of blindly accepting my claim with the crazy pants of blindly accepting your claim. It's illogical to believe either claim without evidence.

Since you're unable to provide evidence, I can once again assume your claim isn't true.

Tell me, do you believe any claim without evidence?

I don't care if you don't believe it, and I don't think "people should believe anything without" whatever makes you happy.

But you have, and continue to, miss the point: I am not advocating anything of this world - so I am not going to substantiate my comments with anything that is of this world, nor could I.

We are talking about another world. Or...we don't have to.

 

[ScottA]

...but we aren´t at a university that teaches things I don´t know.

Last time I checked this was the Philosophy Forum of a discussion board; and in particular we are in a thread created by BriannaRose inviting us to give her our thoughts about a certain issue.
What did you think where we were?

It´s just you. I don´t put up defenses against you - I just don´t acknowledge your self-proclaimed yet unevidenced and unsubstantiated expertise and superiority.

Then, tell me about the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Philosophy is like kindergarten for thinkers, a place to discuss abstract theories of knowledge and reality. Where would you suggest one might discuss the idea of another world?

 

[quatona]

Then, tell me about the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Well, it´s your claim that such exists.

Philosophy is like kindergarten for thinkers, a place to discuss abstract theories of knowledge and reality. Where would you suggest one might discuss the idea of another world?

You can discuss it here, quite fine (although I´m not sure it would be exactly on-topic in this particular thread).
The thing is: You aren´t discussing, you are posturing as a teacher.

 

[ScottA]

There is no proof. There never will be.
It is faith. It is hope. It is belief.

To be fair...I will also give an answer to this:

Many do not have proof, and many never will. Yet "faith" is just as good. But also, there are many who do have proof. I have proof. But such proof is personal. God comes to us on a level that is not of this world - His kingdom is not of this world. Can I share that proof? Only in word...and God has done the same. But perfection cannot be put on display in an imperfect setting, any more than these mockers could put sanitary on display within unsanitary: A little leaven leavens the whole lump.