My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN me?

[tonychanyt]

Judas betrayed Jesus. Peter denied him. The disciples forsook him. The wicked people spit on him, punched him, flogged him, mocked him, crowned him with sharp thorns, and finally nailed him to the cross. Jesus didn't complain about any of these to the Father.

Matthew 27:

46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

That was the most painful moment of Jesus' life. As humans, we can't appreciate the depth of this pain. The Father and the Son/Word had been together for all eternity. There is a connection, a spiritual communion between the Father and Son. At this point, this connection was temporarily severed/forsaken for the first and only time. Jesus raised a rhetorical question because he experienced the cut/separation all humans experience when sinning. Without this separation, it was impossible for Jesus to die (Romans 6:23) physically. Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. After this separation, he took on our sins and died for our sins. Jesus died; his divine nature did not.

Jesus alluded to Psalm 22:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?

Jesus felt forsaken and the separation. That was the temporal moment for the transaction of the divine exchange, 2 Corinthians 5:

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Heb 9:

28b Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Soon after Jesus experienced this separation, Matthew continues:

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Did Jesus' divine nature leave his human nature on the cross?

I think so. For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon Christ's divine nature. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically. In terms of spiritual mechanics, that was how God/Man died. God did not die, and the divine nature of Jesus did not die. Jesus took up our sins and died.

How would this affect the redemption of humankind?

After the 2nd cry,

51 behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

Jesus was the first man who had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Jesus didn't just die: He yielded up his spirit. By doing so, the separation between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place was torn down. After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, he sent the Paraclete Indwelling Spirit to permanently connect with our human spirit to God. The indwelling Spirit was released if and only if Jesus died.

What happened to the condition of Jesus' body?

Paul spoke in (NIV) Acts 13:

35 So it is also stated elsewhere:“ ‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’
36“Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay."

Jesus' body was sinless. It did not decay.

See also From the sixth hour there was DARKNESS over all the land until the ninth hour.

 

[AV1611VET]

That is the only time you'll see Jesus refer to His father as "God."

God is either our Abba Father or, if we're not saved, He will be God, our judge.

In addition, Charles Spurgeon points out that Jesus shed His blood on the ground BEFORE any man drove any nails into Him.

He did this when He sweat great drops of blood in the garden.

Sap tastes sweetest when it is found on the outside of a tree that exuded it naturally.

But when one drives a metal spike into it to get the sap to come out, it's not quite as sweet.

Jesus showed His sweetest love for us in the Garden.

Then again on the tree (cross).

 

[eleos1954]

Judas betrayed Jesus. Peter denied him. The disciples forsook him. The wicked people spit on him, punched him, flogged him, mocked him, crowned him with sharp thorns, and finally nailed him to the cross. Jesus didn't complain about any of these to the Father.

Matthew 27:


That was the most painful moment of Jesus' life. As humans, we can't appreciate the depth of this pain. The Father and the Son/Word had been together for all eternity. There is a connection, a spiritual communion between the Father and Son. At this point, this connection was temporarily severed/forsaken for the first and only time. Jesus raised a rhetorical question because he experienced the cut/separation all humans experience when sinning. Without this separation, it was impossible for Jesus to die (Romans 6:23) physically. Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. After this separation, he took on our sins and died for our sins. Jesus died; his divine nature did not.

Jesus alluded to Psalm 22:


Jesus felt forsaken and the separation. That was the temporal moment for the transaction of the divine exchange, 2 Corinthians 5:


Heb 9:


Soon after Jesus experienced this separation, Matthew continues:


Did Jesus' divine nature leave his human nature on the cross?

I think so. For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon Christ's divine nature. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically. In terms of spiritual mechanics, that was how God/Man died. God did not die, and the divine nature of Jesus did not die. Jesus took up our sins and died.

How would this affect the redemption of humankind?

After the 2nd cry,


Jesus was the first man who had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Jesus didn't just die: He yielded up his spirit. By doing so, the separation between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place was torn down. After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, he sent the Paraclete Indwelling Spirit to permanently connect with our human spirit to God. The indwelling Spirit was released if and only if Jesus died.

What happened to the condition of Jesus' body?

Paul spoke in (NIV) Acts 13:


Jesus' body was sinless. It did not decay.

See also From the sixth hour there was DARKNESS over all the land until the ninth hour.

The indwelling Spirit was released if and only if Jesus died.

Not so ... the 3 have been working together always (all three present at creation), they always work together.

The Word of God is an inspired book .... inspired through the Holy Spirit.

On the day of Pentecost special powers were given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did release his "spirit" ... that "spirit" was the breath of human life ie ... He breathed His last.

Corruption whether spiritual or physical is the result of sin .... Jesus had no sin in Him so His body did not decay nor was His mind corrupted either.

Jesus was the divine in human form on earth and will remain the same in heaven .... He bridges the gap (separation) between humanity and God the father.

He did experience separation from God on the cross ... but also trusted God the Father (trust) that He would be raised up unto eternal life both as a human and retain His divine status. Ultimate faith in the Father.

Jesus in the form of man received the power of the Holy Spirit and in His human form relied on it throughout His entire earthly life.

Deity did not die. Humanity died

While Christ's deity could not perish, He suffered the infinite ordeal of being separated from the Father, with whom He had been, until this, eternally One.

 

[tonychanyt]

Not so

Define Paraclete.

 

[Joseph G]

Jesus was the first man who had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

One question... if this is true, why did David say:

"Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me."
Psalm 51:11 NIV

 

[tonychanyt]

One question... if this is true, why did David say:

"Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me."
Psalm 51:11 NIV

Good question. See People in the OT have the Spirit in them and follow up there.

 

[Joseph G]

Good question. See People in the OT have the Spirit in them and follow up there.

Read it. Works for me. Thanks!

 

[Grip Docility]

Judas betrayed Jesus. Peter denied him. The disciples forsook him. The wicked people spit on him, punched him, flogged him, mocked him, crowned him with sharp thorns, and finally nailed him to the cross. Jesus didn't complain about any of these to the Father.

Matthew 27:


That was the most painful moment of Jesus' life. As humans, we can't appreciate the depth of this pain. The Father and the Son/Word had been together for all eternity. There is a connection, a spiritual communion between the Father and Son. At this point, this connection was temporarily severed/forsaken for the first and only time. Jesus raised a rhetorical question because he experienced the cut/separation all humans experience when sinning. Without this separation, it was impossible for Jesus to die (Romans 6:23) physically. Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. After this separation, he took on our sins and died for our sins. Jesus died; his divine nature did not.

Jesus alluded to Psalm 22:


Jesus felt forsaken and the separation. That was the temporal moment for the transaction of the divine exchange, 2 Corinthians 5:


Heb 9:


Soon after Jesus experienced this separation, Matthew continues:


Did Jesus' divine nature leave his human nature on the cross?

I think so. For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon Christ's divine nature. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically. In terms of spiritual mechanics, that was how God/Man died. God did not die, and the divine nature of Jesus did not die. Jesus took up our sins and died.

How would this affect the redemption of humankind?

After the 2nd cry,


Jesus was the first man who had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Jesus didn't just die: He yielded up his spirit. By doing so, the separation between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place was torn down. After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, he sent the Paraclete Indwelling Spirit to permanently connect with our human spirit to God. The indwelling Spirit was released if and only if Jesus died.

What happened to the condition of Jesus' body?

Paul spoke in (NIV) Acts 13:


Jesus' body was sinless. It did not decay.

See also From the sixth hour there was DARKNESS over all the land until the ninth hour.

I want to ask if you notice something… because this is a wonderful OP.

You measure scripture to scripture and of coarse… many people carry fully automatic rifles in the name of hypostatic union doctrine and the Trinitarian creeds.

My point is… these teachings seem to be to aid in teaching and reproof, which is very excellent… and to prevent heresies. I by all means acknowledge Father, Son and the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). I also know that they are distinct yet One… enter 10 billion diagrams and creeds… etc etc…

Proper search of Scripture fully reveals what John speaks of in the first chapter of John.., I.e. Christ is God and always has been God, along with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…

But… my point is… why did the early church insist that teachings get expounded on to the point where they require extra biblical training to articulate, per the Physical Churches requirements… when scripture is so abundantly simple and clear on those matters?

Don’t get shot and answer this in a way that gets you shot… but do you ever ponder on these matters?

 

[tonychanyt]

why did the early church insist that teachings get expounded on to the point where they require extra biblical training to articulate, per the Physical Churches requirements… when scripture is so abundantly simple and clear on those matters?

Thanks for sharing.

Can you be more precise with the question and write in short sentences?

 

[AlexB23]

Thanks for sharing.

Can you be more precise with the question and write in short sentences?

Alright, I will use my trusty robot on my computer to re-word @Grip Docility 's post for you, whether I agree with it or not (by the way, I myself believe in the Trinity as a Christian and as a Catholic, but am against semi/automatic rifles):

Mistral 7B Paraphrasing of @Grip Docility 's Post:
May I inquire if you have observed something noteworthy, as this is an outstanding OP?

Scripture is compared to scripture, and it's indisputable that many adhere to the doctrine of the hypostatic union and Trinitarian creeds while bearing automatic rifles. I affirm the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9). They are distinct yet One, as shown by countless trinity diagrams and creeds.

Scripture's thorough exploration reveals John's assertion in the first chapter of John: Christ is God, eternally so with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yet, why did early Christianity mandate elaborate teachings, necessitating extra-biblical education per ecclesiastical decrees, when the Scriptures on these matters are so unambiguously clear?

Reflect upon this thoughtfully. No need to risk harm while responding.

 

[Grip Docility]

Alright, I will use my trusty robot on my computer to re-word @Grip Docility 's post for you, whether I agree with it or not (by the way, I myself believe in the Trinity as a Christian and as a Catholic, but am against semi/automatic rifles):

I like your wording better!

 

[AlexB23]

I like your wording better!

Thank you. Technology to the rescue. Eloquence is an important skill for one to have, and writing sentences where one says "But… my point is…" with a bunch of ellipses (dots) makes one sound hesitant and not well versed on the topic. Just trying to help you out, so I agree with @tonychanyt that you could have used more eloquence.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you. Technology to the rescue. Eloquence is an important skill for one to have, and writing sentences where one says "But… my point is…" with a bunch of ellipses (dots) makes one sound hesitant and not well versed on the topic. Just trying to help you out, so I agree with @tonychanyt that you could have used more eloquence.

Unfortunately… my digital communication always has a sort of stutter. It’s all good, though! I’m chill if I get ribbed over it from time to time!

 

[AlexB23]

Unfortunately… my digital communication always has a sort of stutter. It’s all good, though! I’m chill if I get ribbed over it from time to time!

Don't worry, I try not to judge. We can have awkward, stutter moments, even some public figures do also, and we should not judge them for that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

why did the early church insist that teachings get expounded on to the point where they require extra biblical training to articulate, per the Physical Churches requirements… when scripture is so abundantly simple and clear on those matters?

Because of error and false teaching.

 

[Grip Docility]

Because of error and false teaching

Absolutely... But has anyone delved into Scriptures standards for false teaching on the matter? It's far more relaxed than the complicated diagrams and creeds. 1 John 2:22

I only bring this up, because Yeshua didn't create an army of soldiers that led people to the gospel and then created elaborate doctrines which force volumes of denominationally specific commentaries onto them. The original church had a massive physical ministry that brought people to Jesus and struggled to unify them into scripture... which was the Tanakh. Ofcoarse, we are blessed with 27 beautiful writings of scripture that are now canonized, by the Love and Grace of our Lord, God. But seriously, what is it about mankind's desire to complicate the living goodness out of beautiful, simple matters?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Absolutely... But has anyone delved into Scriptures standards for false teaching on the matter? It's far more relaxed than the complicated diagrams and creeds. 1 John 2:22

I only bring this up, because Yeshua didn't create an army of soldiers that led people to the gospel and then created elaborate doctrines which force volumes of denominationally specific commentaries onto them. The original church had a massive physical ministry that brought people to Jesus and struggled to unify them into scripture... which was the Tanakh. Ofcoarse, we are blessed with 27 beautiful writings of scripture that are now canonized, by the Love and Grace of our Lord, God. But seriously, what is it about mankind's desire to complicate the living goodness out of beautiful, simple matters?

"The more the words, the less the meaning." "The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you."

Yes, it is rather a bitter and sweet irony, that no matter how specific (in our attempt at accuracy) we get with what is true, we can neither be complicated enough, nor in any attempt at concision, simple enough. The more we strive for accuracy the more the potential for error. The more we strive for simplicity, the more the vagueness. Happily, this is just more evidence of our need for the simple mercy of God.

One analogy to this —(actually, it is more than analogous, though it is that too)— is the idea that in the Simplicity of God this whole of creation, to include sin and redemption and glorification, was spoken into completion by a word. Yet it has taken these many thousands of years, (or billions, if you wish), to accomplish it, accompanied with the very sustaining of each smallest particle of energy/matter and every principle, fact and being —even of existence and reality itself.

It is the nature of creaturehood not to be able to understand all the facts, and so we can't define them, either. Our talk is child's prattle.

 

[KevinT]

To take up the original question of why Jesus was crying out about why the Father had abandoned him, I have an alternative take:

Jesus was just reciting Psalms 22 which is the origin of this quote. The psalm starts with a question as to why it seems that God has abandoned him (David), but by the end of the psalm is returns to statements of hope and knowledge that all will turn out OK.

KT


Psalms 22 (for reference)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!