My Challenge to the Conservative Christians

Lisa0315

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Sure. It's no stretch to believe in other supernatural entities.. if you believe in one, it only follows that there could be more. But you lost me on the "possession" part of it. Can't you imagine how many innocent "possessed" people that were put to death centuries ago, because we had no understanding of mental illness? I just find it... distressing that in this day and age people would still believe in 'demonic possession' when we know all that we do about mental illness.



See above.

Well, considering I am clinically depressed and my husband is bipolar, I am not about to condone what happened centuries ago. My friend here, I thought must be schizophrenic, and the demons were simply part of her illness. That is, until I was attacked myself. Now, that does not rule out mental illness in either of us. What it does though is make me aware of the possibility of a biological probability coupled with a spiritual possibility.

Yet, in telling you that, you will unconsciously discriminate against me and whatever I say from now on, you will put down to a deranged mind. Mental illness and physical handicaps are the last prejudice that everyone will deny having, but will still consciously or unconciously react to them.

I am more well now than I have been in my entire life. But, honestly, after reading this, tell me if you do not automatically tend to discount what I say due to my admitted illness.

Lisa
 
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selfinflikted

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Well, considering I am clinically depressed and my husband is bipolar, I am not about to condone what happened centuries ago. My friend here, I thought must be schizophrenic, and the demons were simply part of her illness. That is, until I was attacked myself. Now, that does not rule out mental illness in either of us. What it does though is make me aware of the possibility of a biological probability coupled with a spiritual possibility.

Yet, in telling you that, you will unconsciously discriminate against me and whatever I say from now on, you will put down to a deranged mind. Mental illness and physical handicaps are the last prejudice that everyone will deny having, but will still consciously or unconciously react to them.

I am more well now than I have been in my entire life. But, honestly, after reading this, tell me if you do not automatically tend to discount what I say due to my admitted illness.

Lisa

I would hope that I wouldn't, based on that. If I do "discount" anything you say, it will most likely be based on what I would consider a silly belief about demons attacking people and possessing them. Please don't take offense to that either, as that's not my intent - I do, however just see it as a complete waste of time. In that, I mean, instead of trying to perform "exorcisms" and the like, the time could be better spent with a doctor or in a hospital trying to get to the real cause of the problem.

And, as a side note, I'm glad that your "more well" now. I hope your well-being continues to improve.
 
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Lisa0315

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I would hope that I wouldn't, based on that. If I do "discount" anything you say, it will most likely be based on what I would consider a silly belief about demons attacking people and possessing them. Please don't take offense to that either, as that's not my intent - I do, however just see it as a complete waste of time. In that, I mean, instead of trying to perform "exorcisms" and the like, the time could be better spent with a doctor or in a hospital trying to get to the real cause of the problem.

And, as a side note, I'm glad that your "more well" now. I hope your well-being continues to improve.

Thanks, dude! It is fine if one discounts my beliefs because they do not believe in God much less Satan. I would hate to think that it was because I admitted to a chemical imbalance that many people function with and are never treated. My illness is no different than diabetes. My brain does not produce enough seratonin. I supplement with medicine and I am as normal as anyone else is.

Lisa
 
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SughaNSpice

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I'm going to say that I've seen a difference between Lisa and those that the OP is describing -- in fact I've not seen them on this thread. From what I've seen of Lisa, she admits that it homosexuality being a sin is based on her belief system and, as such, she recognizes that she cannot force others to live based on her belief. At the same time, she'd like others to give her the same respect. Now, I hope if I've misstated here that Lisa will correct me, or perhaps even just better clarify her thoughts.

The ones I see the OP describing are the ones who are convinced they know exactly what God wants, and because they claim that knowledge, they feel the right to tell others how to live. Also, since they feel they know what God wants, they feel no need to listen to anyone elses thoughts or beliefs. And what is really frustrating, they often appear to feel that anything they claim is true, regardless of how many people can provide evidence that proves them wrong (such as the idea of HIV being a gay disease).

I will also agree that you find these people on the Left and on the Right, one of the reasons I get so frustrated with politics currently.
I dunno…Lisa does seem to be responding just like what the OP is describing…sorry Lisa…but true is true…the OP talks about Christians who make proclamations of truth…and refuse to actually respond in a meaningful way when that perception of truth is questioned…

Well Lisa declared that homosexuality was a sin…that was challenged…and her response was not a discussion of her biblical interpretations…but an attack on the poster doing the challenging…saying “I’m right, and you are a bad person for not going along with me”…and that is ...to me...just what the OP was talking about.
 
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Lisa0315

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I dunno…Lisa does seem to be responding just like what the OP is describing…sorry Lisa…but true is true…the OP talks about Christians who make proclamations of truth…and refuse to actually respond in a meaningful way when that perception of truth is questioned…

Well Lisa declared that homosexuality was a sin…that was challenged…and her response was not a discussion of her biblical interpretations…but an attack on the poster doing the challenging…saying “I’m right, and you are a bad person for not going along with me”…and that is ...to me...just what the OP was talking about.

No, I didn't. Show me where I did this.
 
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SughaNSpice

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No, I didn't. Show me where I did this.
You asked: “I don't think your description portrays me. Ask me about a particular doctrine and I might can respond better.” …


You got: “How about yoru claim that homosexuality is a sin” …


You responded: “Whatever...I got news for you. I do not care what you think of me.”


Which is pretty much the response being described in the OP…
 
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Lisa0315

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You asked: “I don't think your description portrays me. Ask me about a particular doctrine and I might can respond better.” …


You got: “How about yoru claim that homosexuality is a sin” …


You responded: “Whatever...I got news for you. I do not care what you think of me.”


Which is pretty much the response being described in the OP…

Yes, but you do not understand why I responded as I did. It was not because the OP was true but because that particular poster had been in two other prior threads going after me. Had someone else asked me why I thought it was a sin, my response would have been different. I do have a deeply held belief and I base that on my interpretation of Scripture. However, I do listen to people's points of view on the subject and even hope that they are right and I am wrong. I try to be fair and open minded and simply ask for the same respect that I show. That particular poster had been very disrespectful to me in previous threads. I do not play that game. Rather than get into a confrontation, I simply do not engage with someone who is not interested in honest discussion. Honest discussion means that there are two sides, not just one.

Lisa
 
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uberd00b

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However, I do listen to people's points of view on the subject and even hope that they are right and I am wrong.
That would be your natural sense of right and wrong struggling against the immoral things your religious instruction would have you believe. There's hope for you yet Lisa. ;)
 
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Lisa0315

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That would be your natural sense of right and wrong struggling against the immoral things your religious instruction would have you believe. There's hope for you yet Lisa. ;)

I don't know if that is the "why" or not. As previously described, part of my illness includes anxiety and a great deal of unhealthy guilt that has no legitimate source or outlet. I try to trust in God and do the best I can. I keep in mind that my outlook on things can be skewed by the depression. At the same time, though, I cannot read Scripture and understand how sexual sin of any kind can be justified.

Lisa
 
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wanderingone

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I dunno…Lisa does seem to be responding just like what the OP is describing…sorry Lisa…but true is true…the OP talks about Christians who make proclamations of truth…and refuse to actually respond in a meaningful way when that perception of truth is questioned…

Well Lisa declared that homosexuality was a sin…that was challenged…and her response was not a discussion of her biblical interpretations…but an attack on the poster doing the challenging…saying “I’m right, and you are a bad person for not going along with me”…and that is ...to me...just what the OP was talking about.

To be fair Lisa is one of the few people I see on these forums who honestly discusses her attempts to live her beliefs in a secular society in a way that allows her to maintain them without pounding those who believe differently over the head with them and without creating situations which cause insult and injury. She can easily present the biblical foundations that lead to her beliefs, but those have been presented all over the place on CF. Her argument that her interpretation is correct is going to be similar to my argument that my understanding is correct. I think it's obvious that people with very different beliefs about something are going to offend each other now and then, and frustration at trying to get a point across when each statement is being analyzed by someone coming at the issue from a completely different point of view is certainly going to result in some posts that can be seen as.. "I'm right you're wrong- live with it" certainly I've posted things that say just that.
 
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Lisa0315

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Well, I would also like to add that Conservative Christians live in fear of standing before the throne of God and having blood on their hands. In other words, we do not want to be held accountable for someone going to hell because we did not speak the Word to them. That is heavily taught in our churches, or at least the ones I am familiar with.

I do think that sometimes folks disguise their own fears and prejudices behind doctrine. It seems to me that there should be a way to talk about our faith without hatred. I do not like the "Telling people the truth is loving". Yeah? It really depends. See, to me, God prepares the way for us. We are all evangelists but we are not evangelists to everyone that we encounter. If God opens the door, I always know it and the words pour out of me in a way that even if the Word offends, the person knows that I have spoken from my heart and not from some misplaced self-righteouness.

Christ spoke of having humility and I think that is the key to discussing doctrine without causing division. I have always thought that it was pride that split the Roman Church and it is pride that keeps us apart. So, if that is true in our dealings with each other, it is going to be even more true when it comes to talking with people that are not believers or have a different faith.

Lisa
 
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stan1980

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Well, I would also like to add that Conservative Christians live in fear of standing before the throne of God and having blood on their hands. In other words, we do not want to be held accountable for someone going to hell because we did not speak the Word to them. That is heavily taught in our churches, or at least the ones I am familiar with.

If someone was to end up in hell, you shouldn't hold yourself responsible. I don't even think the individual is responsible, since we're all basically a product of our environment. There can only be one person (or being if you like) responsible. Talking hypothetically of course.
 
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Polycarp1

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The Great Commission is to teach the Good News -- that there is new life in Christ. Some of the vocabulary we use has become tarnished: evamgelize, for example, or Gospel. To the non-Christian they signify a desire to get people to quit doing things that some Christians deduce from the Bible are sinful.

That's pretty far from the truth. Repentance, for example, is one of those words. To me it doesn't mean "to quit sinning" far less "to quit doing things that Sister Bertha Betterthanthou thinks are sins." It means to turn to the Lord. And I will testify that my life is richer and fuller with a relationship with Jesus in it. And, paradoxically, knowing Him has made me much more liberal -- He gives me the strength to stand for what is right, and not count the cost. And far too often lately that's been to call out someone for whom "Christianity" is following a set of rules.

It's not. It's living with Christ as your Brother, Savior, and Lord of your life.

Lisa, we knew each other Elsewhere. I respect your views, and more fully I respect and share your motivations. What profoundly disturbs me about the homosexuality debates is that, contrary to their professed intent, the people arguing for the sinfulness of homosexuality under all circumstances seem not to care one whit what effect their argument have on the GLBT people hearing them -- they seem to choose to stand for the truth as they see it regardless of whether they sound like they're denigrating and insulting every gay person (and any of us who accept, welcome, and support gay Christians) and in short appear to care less that they are driving those they're supposedly proselyting away from Christ. That's what they ought to feel the sort of feeling you described in post #71 about.

On the other hand, people like you and Ishida attempt to dialogue, to understand the gay POVs and to encounter them as fellow sinners saved by grace, just like you and me. And that is meaningful.

There's a passage in Ezekiel you know better than I, to the effect that your job is to warn. Presuming you're right on the subject for the sake of argument (and we can discuss whether you are another time), your job is to give that warning. Not to judge, not to condemn, but to warn. If you have done that, according to Ezekiel, your hands are clean. Kath, nearly the only "ex-gay" person whose testimony I believe, used to say here that her job was to warn about sin. Not to judge sinners, but to warn people, to show them a better way.

Bottom line to me: Jesus accepts us just as we are. He sends the Holy Spirit to instill growth and change. He did that with me. I didn't like who I was; He changed that , big time. That, not some rinkidink code of behavior, is what He came to teach, what He died to give us.

Take heart, Lisa. He who will judge you loves you, and knows your heart better than you do yourself. And He sees the goodness there.
 
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Lisa0315

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The Great Commission is to teach the Good News -- that there is new life in Christ. Some of the vocabulary we use has become tarnished: evamgelize, for example, or Gospel. To the non-Christian they signify a desire to get people to quit doing things that some Christians deduce from the Bible are sinful.

That's pretty far from the truth. Repentance, for example, is one of those words. To me it doesn't mean "to quit sinning" far less "to quit doing things that Sister Bertha Betterthanthou thinks are sins." It means to turn to the Lord. And I will testify that my life is richer and fuller with a relationship with Jesus in it. And, paradoxically, knowing Him has made me much more liberal -- He gives me the strength to stand for what is right, and not count the cost. And far too often lately that's been to call out someone for whom "Christianity" is following a set of rules.

It's not. It's living with Christ as your Brother, Savior, and Lord of your life.

Lisa, we knew each other Elsewhere. I respect your views, and more fully I respect and share your motivations. What profoundly disturbs me about the homosexuality debates is that, contrary to their professed intent, the people arguing for the sinfulness of homosexuality under all circumstances seem not to care one whit what effect their argument have on the GLBT people hearing them -- they seem to choose to stand for the truth as they see it regardless of whether they sound like they're denigrating and insulting every gay person (and any of us who accept, welcome, and support gay Christians) and in short appear to care less that they are driving those they're supposedly proselyting away from Christ. That's what they ought to feel the sort of feeling you described in post #71 about.

On the other hand, people like you and Ishida attempt to dialogue, to understand the gay POVs and to encounter them as fellow sinners saved by grace, just like you and me. And that is meaningful.

There's a passage in Ezekiel you know better than I, to the effect that your job is to warn. Presuming you're right on the subject for the sake of argument (and we can discuss whether you are another time), your job is to give that warning. Not to judge, not to condemn, but to warn. If you have done that, according to Ezekiel, your hands are clean. Kath, nearly the only "ex-gay" person whose testimony I believe, used to say here that her job was to warn about sin. Not to judge sinners, but to warn people, to show them a better way.

Bottom line to me: Jesus accepts us just as we are. He sends the Holy Spirit to instill growth and change. He did that with me. I didn't like who I was; He changed that , big time. That, not some rinkidink code of behavior, is what He came to teach, what He died to give us.

Take heart, Lisa. He who will judge you loves you, and knows your heart better than you do yourself. And He sees the goodness there.

Poly, I am sitting here with tears in my eyes as I reply back to you. You touched my heart and this is one of those moments that I recognize as a fellow laborer sent to another to help bear their burden. I thank you and I thank the Lord for sending you with this post. I will always remember this message. Warning, not judging, and all things with love. Amen, my brother. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart.

Lisa
 
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BigBadWlf

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Well, I would also like to add that Conservative Christians live in fear of standing before the throne of God and having blood on their hands. In other words, we do not want to be held accountable for someone going to hell because we did not speak the Word to them. That is heavily taught in our churches, or at least the ones I am familiar with.

I do think that sometimes folks disguise their own fears and prejudices behind doctrine. It seems to me that there should be a way to talk about our faith without hatred. I do not like the "Telling people the truth is loving". Yeah? It really depends. See, to me, God prepares the way for us. We are all evangelists but we are not evangelists to everyone that we encounter. If God opens the door, I always know it and the words pour out of me in a way that even if the Word offends, the person knows that I have spoken from my heart and not from some misplaced self-righteouness.

Christ spoke of having humility and I think that is the key to discussing doctrine without causing division. I have always thought that it was pride that split the Roman Church and it is pride that keeps us apart. So, if that is true in our dealings with each other, it is going to be even more true when it comes to talking with people that are not believers or have a different faith.

Lisa
Now that is something I can agree with
 
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