Let's talk about the Trinity and Free Will.

[Soulx3]

Actually, I've been saying that the Bible consistently reports that God Enables His Elect to obey Him.

To say that God "enables" His elect or anybody is to admit that they still have a degree of free agency over their actions, and in that case it's just God those actions easier for the elect. However, that doesn't align with Scripture. According to your beliefs, there'd be no need for the commandments, and the rewards and consequences depending on whether any of us obey or disobey them, yet God gave us those commandments, and plans to distribute either reward or consequence depending on how we choose to live. That is Scripture. Your beliefs fly in the face of that. You can't reconcile no matter how you word your beliefs.

 

[Water and Fire]

The Bible is crystal clear: God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that the Glory of God would be made known.

Romans 9:17-18 NLT - "For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth." So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen."

I would recommend studying the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that you can understand the actual Story of God.

Yes, that's exactly why he did it... and it's the same for all of us. Most hearts will be hardened until the next world though.
I was going to get to this point, but the person I was talking with, seemed not to be able to grasp my argument.

 

[Oneofhope]

And, yet He chooses not to, even though He could.

It's probably me, but I'm not getting much out of that.

 

[Oneofhope]

So, you acknowledge that God gave mankind a free will?

Scouring the Bible from Genesis to Revelation multiple times, it is evident that humans possess nothing more than a limited sense of freewill.

Could you give me an example of how, if I had the Power, to violate your sense of free will. No one has given an example thus far.

Thanks!

 

[Oneofhope]

According to your beliefs

It's not what I believe. It's what I can copy and paste. Silly thing is, people usually reject Scripture. Isn't that sumthin? Christians . . . rejecting Scripture. It happens every day that I attempt to communicate with one.

 

[Oneofhope]

According to your beliefs, there'd be no need for the commandments, and the rewards and consequences depending on whether any of us obey or disobey them, yet God gave us those commandments, and plans to distribute either reward or consequence depending on how we choose to live. That is Scripture. Your beliefs fly in the face of that. You can't reconcile no matter how you word your beliefs.

My friend, your lack of Understanding and Knowledge of the Bible as a whole would be too tiresome for me to break through, considering your aggressive spirit. If your eyes and ears weren't shut, I'd love to work with you.

I wish you the best.

 

[Oneofhope]

Yes, that's exactly why he did it... and it's the same for all of us. Most hearts will be hardened until the next world though.
I was going to get to this point, but the person I was talking with, seemed not to be able to grasp my argument.

What you just wrote was like reading my native language after being in a forgein country for ten years.

God tells us to go to the blind, poor, oppressed, and sick. Why? Because they know they're sick and need a healer. This is the Purpose of Christ according to John 9:39-41. This is why Jesus healed the sick, the blind, lame, deaf, mute . . . all of these specific malady's, because these people realize they need a healer. But those who don't realize they're sick, yet think they are just fine, they don't call out to a healer so they can be made well. This is precisely what the physical healings were all about in the New Testament. They're an outward, physical expression of what takes place to the heart when Jesus performs Spiritual Circumcision.

Anyway, we're dealing with those whose hearts and ears have not been Circumcised. Until Jesus sets these people free, they are incapable of hearing and understanding. And like you say, this is most of the world. Yet incredible, so much of this world believes they're saved . . . but they're not.

 

[Water and Fire]

What you just wrote was like reading my native language after being in a forgein country for ten years.

God tells us to go to the blind, poor, oppressed, and sick. Why? Because they know they're sick and need a healer. This is the Purpose of Christ according to John 9:39-41. This is why Jesus healed the sick, the blind, lame, deaf, mute . . . all of these specific malady's, because these people realize they need a healer. But those who don't realize they're sick, yet think they are just fine, they don't call out to a healer so they can be made well. This is precisely what the physical healings were all about in the New Testament. They're an outward, physical expression of what takes place to the heart when Jesus performs Spiritual Circumcision.

Anyway, we're dealing with those whose hearts and ears have not been Circumcised. Until Jesus sets these people free, they are incapable of hearing and understanding. And like you say, this is most of the world. Yet incredible, so much of this world believes they're saved . . . but they're not.

Yes, exactly!

When scripture speaks of the blind, it is refering to those who a blind to the spiritual meaning of the letter.
When it refers to the deaf, it is referring to those that cannot hear what the spirit says.
When it refers to the lame, it is talking about those who cannot walk with God, because they are not agreed with him.

It's all spiritual!

 

[Oneofhope]

Yes, exactly!

When scripture speaks of the blind, it is refering to those who a blind to the spiritual meaning of the letter.
When it refers to the deaf, it is referring to those that cannot hear what the spirit says.
When it refers to the lame, it is talking about those who cannot walk with God, because they are not agreed with him.

It's all spiritual!

There are layers of messages within the Bible. The first layer is what any human being can memorize from Scripture. But those memorized Words may or may not mean what we think they mean. And this is precisely why I do not consult commentaries unless absolutely necessary. I would rather peruse 15 different translations before I turn to the ideas of humans. If we want to understand the Bible, we have to stop considering God's truth from the viewpoint of the human mind, and depend upon the Holy Spirit. That is Biblical . . . yet how many follow the Bible? Right . . . hence, there are very few genuine Christians on planet Earth. Of all christians that I have met, maybe five were genuine. Probably less.

 

[Soulx3]

My friend, your lack of Understanding and Knowledge of the Bible as a whole would be too tiresome for me to break through, considering your aggressive spirit. If your eyes and ears weren't shut, I'd love to work with you.

I wish you the best.

I'm not the problem. You're the one who can't reconcile your belief that mankind wasn't given a free will with the scriptural facts that God gave mankind a free will with rules, commandments to either obey or disobey, coupled with rewards and consequences depending on what we choose. Not only that, but He instructs all mankind to show mercy, forgiveness, and repentance, etc. None of that would be necessary if God only wanted certain people to join Him in Heaven. No. He wants all mankind to join Him in Heaven and He gives all mankind the spiritual helps to achieve Heaven of their own free will, or not, if they choose. There's no merit in coercion.

 

[Soulx3]

Could you give me an example of how, if I had the Power, to violate your sense of free will. No one has given an example thus far.

Your question is based on the assumption I have a free will to begin with, which I do, and you'll never have the power to fully violate my free will. Only God can fully violate my free will. If He were to ever do that, it would only be to do what is His will, and if doing His will is what I freely wanted before He even "violated" my free will, it's not really a violation. So, why doesn't God just violate our free will so we can all join Him in Heaven? Because there's no merit in coercion, even if it's to do His will.

The only being I can fully let violate my free will with my permission is satan, and I've never given him permission to take possession of me, not even to the degree of me giving up my free will so as to become an irreversible slave to sin.

 

[Oneofhope]

I'm not the problem. You're the one who can't reconcile your belief that mankind wasn't given a free will with the scriptural facts that God gave mankind a free will with rules, commandments to either obey or disobey, coupled with rewards and consequences depending on what we choose. Not only that, but He instructs all mankind to show mercy, forgiveness, and repentance, etc. None of that would be necessary if God only wanted certain people to join Him in Heaven. No. He wants all mankind to join Him in Heaven and He gives all mankind the spiritual helps to achieve Heaven of their own free will, or not, if they choose. There's no merit in coercion.

I didn't read your post. The reason for this is that I do not have a spirit of arguing within me. If you can change your attitude, which would be to be Christian, I would be happy to communicate with you.

May the Lord grant you the most amazing of Blessings.

 

[Soulx3]

I didn't read your post. The reason for this is that I do not have a spirit of arguing within me. If you can change your attitude, which would be to be Christian, I would be happy to communicate with you.

May the Lord grant you the most amazing of Blessings.

You're making excuses to avoid discussion because you can't reconcile your belief with Scripture.

 

[Oneofhope]

You're making excuses to avoid discussion because you can't reconcile your belief with Scripture.

May the Lord Bless you more than anyone at this forum.

 

[Soulx3]

May the Lord Bless you more than anyone at this forum.

Just because I explain why your belief doesn't align with the actions and desires of God as stated in Scripture doesn't make my attitude unChristian. That's silly which is why its just an excuse to avoid discussion.

 

[Water and Fire]

There are layers of messages within the Bible. The first layer is what any human being can memorize from Scripture. But those memorized Words may or may not mean what we think they mean. And this is precisely why I do not consult commentaries unless absolutely necessary. I would rather peruse 15 different translations before I turn to the ideas of humans. If we want to understand the Bible, we have to stop considering God's truth from the viewpoint of the human mind, and depend upon the Holy Spirit. That is Biblical . . . yet how many follow the Bible? Right . . . hence, there are very few genuine Christians on planet Earth. Of all christians that I have met, maybe five were genuine. Probably less.

Correct. I have no interest in the teachings of men. The teachings of men are their own interpretation of the letter.
The doctrines of Christ are from scripture interpreting scripture, and they are not the letter but the spirit.

 

[Water and Fire]

Scouring the Bible from Genesis to Revelation multiple times, it is evident that humans possess nothing more than a limited sense of freewill.

Could you give me an example of how, if I had the Power, to violate your sense of free will. No one has given an example thus far.

Thanks!

One of my favourite verses on the subject, is this one.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

There are layers of messages within the Bible. The first layer is what any human being can memorize from Scripture. But those memorized Words may or may not mean what we think they mean. And this is precisely why I do not consult commentaries unless absolutely necessary. I would rather peruse 15 different translations before I turn to the ideas of humans. If we want to understand the Bible, we have to stop considering God's truth from the viewpoint of the human mind, and depend upon the Holy Spirit. That is Biblical . . . yet how many follow the Bible? Right . . . hence, there are very few genuine Christians on planet Earth. Of all christians that I have met, maybe five were genuine. Probably less.

Christ spoke in parables, and is still speaking in parables.

 

[rodm1974]

No, and I just gave a few examples of why man does have free will, to which you said nothing. So, again, if God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

Actually the commands were given NOT to follow, but to condemn us all, causing us to have to look to grace, that is what Paul says in Romans. My paraphrase of course.

 

[rodm1974]

I have not seen this false teaching before , not that I remember ?
There is no condemnation for those who love God, who are called according to His Purpose, who are echad, one, abiding in Christ Jesus.

So are you saying you never read the book of Romans, or are you saying you read it, but didn't comprehend what you read?

 

[rodm1974]

I have not seen this false teaching before , not that I remember ?
There is no condemnation for those who love God, who are called according to His Purpose, who are echad, one, abiding in Christ Jesus.

For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me