Leaving a charismatic cult....Is everyone else "APOSTATE" or is that another lie?

[salamacum]

Hi Psalm232,

The Church is full of both genuine good believers and also false believers. Jesus told us to expect this. The fact that there are many false believers does not invalidate the Church.

Look at the parables Jesus says about the wheat and the tares and the fish and the net. Both explicitly say that there are going to be false people, even people planted by the devil in the Kingdom of God, until the end when Jesus returns, then the false believers will be removed.

This dicotomy can make us quite judgemental. There is another group, which is probably most of us - the hypocrit - we know we are not as good as we should be, but we have to hide that from other Christians and the world. We talk the talk - oh we certainly do that - but many Christians just don't have the emotional resources to engage with the world.

 

[Simon_Templar]

This dicotomy can make us quite judgemental. There is another group, which is probably most of us - the hypocrit - we know we are not as good as we should be, but we have to hide that from other Christians and the world. We talk the talk - oh we certainly do that - but many Christians just don't have the emotional resources to engage with the world.

Almost no one is as good as they *should* be. we don't have to hide that. In fact, the desire to hide that is a problem. I grew up in an evangelical charismatic Church as a pastors kid, so I know the pressure to try and appear as a perfect Christian etc.

I often look back on myself and think how fake I was in trying to put up the front of being a perfect Christian to my non-Christian friends etc. I thought that was necessary in order to "be a good witness". I thought that was part of "showing there was something different about us".

Eventually I came to realize that trying to hide our faults and not being honest about our faults is one of our fundamental human problems. We need to be honest and confess our faults.

Even when dealing with other people, it is much better to be "real" to just be who you really are than to try and put up a fake front of perfection.

 

[salamacum]

Simon, you are right.
There IS a penalty with 'being honest' and 'sharing'. You end up being counselled according to the latest denimination in-house booklet. A most unpleasant experience. And if it had happened back in my home church I'd have had ministry taken away form me.
I am regularly reminded by people at church how little we know each other, notwithstanding the very public profiles we may have in the services.
How many people actually know that C in my church doesn't believe the bible is infallible? Maybe she'd end up being counselled like me.
My great pressure (used by the enemy) is this thing about not being real or honest.
I prefer to select my friends, mostly not in church. Who take me as I am and who I understand in return. Who know I am a Christian and still want to be with me. Who are not impressed with me 1) not having the company's pens or paper at home 2) not gossipping 3) or displaying any other petty righteousnesses. They like me because I am not smug or priggish and I listen to them. You know, actually hold a conversation. Something evangelicals particularly don't seem to be able to do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Almost no one is as good as they *should* be. we don't have to hide that. In fact, the desire to hide that is a problem. I grew up in an evangelical charismatic Church as a pastors kid, so I know the pressure to try and appear as a perfect Christian etc.

I often look back on myself and think how fake I was in trying to put up the front of being a perfect Christian to my non-Christian friends etc. I thought that was necessary in order to "be a good witness". I thought that was part of "showing there was something different about us".

Eventually I came to realize that trying to hide our faults and not being honest about our faults is one of our fundamental human problems. We need to be honest and confess our faults.

Even when dealing with other people, it is much better to be "real" to just be who you really are than to try and put up a fake front of perfection.

What I see here are symptoms of trying to live the Christian life by works instead of grace.

We are saved by grace
We live our Christian life by grace
We are glorified by grace.

The problem is with many Christians is that they are saved by grace, and then suddenly they find themselves trying to live the Christian life by works. This is shown by trying to keep to the "rules", or to the expectations of others to win their approval. If a church or a person induces another to behave in a certain way in order to get their approval, then they are shifting that person away from grace to self-effort, based on works, which leads to self-righteousness.

The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent approval of God. Paul said this to the Galatians. He asked them why, having started by grace through faith, why are they trying to make the goal through their own works?

We live in obedience to God because we are already approved by Him, not to gain His approval. And when we are already approved by God, then we don't need anyone else's approval at all. If a church or person demands that we live a certain way to maintain their approval, they are not in the Spirit, but are forcing the demans of the flesh on us. We have every right to refuse to live up to anyone's set of rules of principles in order to gain their approval.

We live our lives by the grace of God and under the light of His approval. We obey God out of our love for him.

If a church or person demands a certain way of behaviour in order to gain approval, part company with them because they will drag you down into the same grievous sin that they are wallowing in. The Scripture says that they who are in the flesh cannot please God. Justification is by grace through faith, and once we are justified, we live under the full approval of God. That is true Christian freedom - to live as guided by the Holy Spirit and not under the yoke of demanding and judgmental neo-pharisees who want to exercise power and control over us.

God does not view us according to our performance. He views us through the Righteousness of Christ which He has bestowed on us through grace. It doesn't matter what we do, we will always be approved of God. This is what justification is all about. If we do good, this does not make us any more approved of God than the grace He gave us when we first came to Christ. If we mess up, He does not take His approval away. This should set us free from the continual sinning-repenting syndrome brought about by seeking approval when we mess up, and seeking more approval if we do something good. Doing this is trying to get there by works instead of resting in the grace of God.

Of course, sanctification is another issue, but this is not generated by others demanding obedience to their rules. It is being led by the Holy Spirit in love, peace and joy, and in close fellowship with God.

 

[Johnnz]

Hi Oscarr.

Obviously another Kiwi with such a sensible post.

Bless you
John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Yes, but what about this?
Pastor has issue with wife - she's can't/won't come to church. Rooted in past rejection (or perception of)
Issue becomes unmentionable. Affects his ministry.
No go area. The elephant in the room.
If we all have such issues, then no wonder we put on a front.
If we shared them then someone WOULD indeed argue we shouldn't be in ministry.

 

[Johnnz]

Yes, but what about this?
Pastor has issue with wife - she's can't/won't come to church. Rooted in past rejection (or perception of)
Issue becomes unmentionable. Affects his ministry.
No go area. The elephant in the room.
If we all have such issues, then no wonder we put on a front.
If we shared them then someone WOULD indeed argue we shouldn't be in ministry.

Relationships beyond a certain point are difficult for most people. We have become so private and self reliant. Add a judgmental, sin centred teaching given in a lecture style and there is little to challenge this sad state of affairs. Over the years may wife and I have seen so many people transformed because we listened without judgement, and loved and supported people no matter what 'came out' from our times together.

John
NZ

 

[silverrune]

Charismatic cult?

I think if a group is cultish it is they who are the apostates, yes?

If you are unsatisfied with the lying and the false teacher at least they are so in your mind and that is enough. If you don't feel they are of God leave.

A cult will condemn others of course because they want to instill fear in their faithful that keeps them in line with the cult. Which would perish if everyone wised up and realized it was a cult. So scare everyone with horror stories about others and those who want to be safe will remain where they are led to believe there is sanctuary.

Cults don't save souls. They destroy minds.
May God be with you in this time.

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Oscarr.

Obviously another Kiwi with such a sensible post.

Bless you
John
NZ

A good book to read: "Transforming Grace, Living confidently in God's unfailing love" by Jerry Bridges.

This is an excellent book on the subject of living by God's grace. It has an excellent chapter on grace vs law.

There is a cartoon which says: "God saves you, and the pastor has a wonderful plan for your life."

Takes a bit of thought to get the joke.

 

[psalm232]

Relationships beyond a certain point are difficult for most people. We have become so private and self reliant. Add a judgmental, sin centred teaching given in a lecture style and there is little to challenge this sad state of affairs. Over the years may wife and I have seen so many people transformed because we listened without judgement, and loved and supported people no matter what 'came out' from our times together.

John
NZ

 

[psalm232]

What I see here are symptoms of trying to live the Christian life by works instead of grace.

We are saved by grace
We live our Christian life by grace
We are glorified by grace.

The problem is with many Christians is that they are saved by grace, and then suddenly they find themselves trying to live the Christian life by works. This is shown by trying to keep to the "rules", or to the expectations of others to win their approval. If a church or a person induces another to behave in a certain way in order to get their approval, then they are shifting that person away from grace to self-effort, based on works, which leads to self-righteousness.

The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent approval of God. Paul said this to the Galatians. He asked them why, having started by grace through faith, why are they trying to make the goal through their own works?

We live in obedience to God because we are already approved by Him, not to gain His approval. And when we are already approved by God, then we don't need anyone else's approval at all. If a church or person demands that we live a certain way to maintain their approval, they are not in the Spirit, but are forcing the demans of the flesh on us. We have every right to refuse to live up to anyone's set of rules of principles in order to gain their approval.

We live our lives by the grace of God and under the light of His approval. We obey God out of our love for him.

If a church or person demands a certain way of behaviour in order to gain approval, part company with them because they will drag you down into the same grievous sin that they are wallowing in. The Scripture says that they who are in the flesh cannot please God. Justification is by grace through faith, and once we are justified, we live under the full approval of God. That is true Christian freedom - to live as guided by the Holy Spirit and not under the yoke of demanding and judgmental neo-pharisees who want to exercise power and control over us.

God does not view us according to our performance. He views us through the Righteousness of Christ which He has bestowed on us through grace. It doesn't matter what we do, we will always be approved of God. This is what justification is all about. If we do good, this does not make us any more approved of God than the grace He gave us when we first came to Christ. If we mess up, He does not take His approval away. This should set us free from the continual sinning-repenting syndrome brought about by seeking approval when we mess up, and seeking more approval if we do something good. Doing this is trying to get there by works instead of resting in the grace of God.

Of course, sanctification is another issue, but this is not generated by others demanding obedience to their rules. It is being led by the Holy Spirit in love, peace and joy, and in close fellowship with God.

Very blessed by this exhortation. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[psalm232]

Is it really that simple? I'm referring again to Oscar's post on grace:

"The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent (???) approval of God."


My questions- What about people "falling away" like in the book of Jude?
"Twice dead and plunked up by the roots"
"Demas has forsaked me having loved this present world..." sort of thing.

Or the statements in the book of Revelations where Jesus says- unless you repent (to the churches- already saved ppl) I will take away your lampstand?

I know we have "unconditional love" but does that also mean "unconditional approval?"
Is this the same as OSAS?

Or are you saying- it's a matter of ORDER. You are given this forgiveness and GIFT of righteousness which could never be earned. And in response out of love, you desire to please God by turning from sin....?

 

[salamacum]

Well, Psalm 232 - you've identified a controversy which many preachers are unable to grapple with, and has caused me to lose a lot of respect for preaching.

 

[psalm232]

Well, Psalm 232 - you've identified a controversy which many preachers are unable to grapple with, and has caused me to lose a lot of respect for preaching.

We need the Holy Spirit to teach us. I believe He knows where we are and what we -individually- need to hear. He is a gentle teacher.

 

[Johnnz]

Is it really that simple? I'm referring again to Oscar's post on grace:

"The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent (???) approval of God."


My questions- What about people "falling away" like in the book of Jude?
"Twice dead and plunked up by the roots"
"Demas has forsaked me having loved this present world..." sort of thing.

Demas withdrew from working with Paul. He had not abandoned his faith.

Or the statements in the book of Revelations where Jesus says- unless you repent (to the churches- already saved ppl) I will take away your lampstand?

That was addressed to church, people collectively who had allowed some wrong influences into their life. The reference to a lampstand refers to the Inner place within te Tabernacle and temple, signifiying their lost intimacy with Jesus, not primarily their eternal destiny.

I know we have "unconditional love" but does that also mean "unconditional approval?"
Is this the same as OSAS?

Or are you saying- it's a matter of ORDER. You are given this forgiveness and GIFT of righteousness which could never be earned. And in response out of love, you desire to please God by turning from sin....?

Your last sentence has it bang on!

John
NZ

 

[hopeinGod]

The vast majority of Charismatic and Pentecostal churches believe a person can lose his/her salvation, and so they preach that one should conform to standards they write and command. These are called "the commandments of men," and are geared to keep one in the fold for fear of losing their rightful place as God's son or daughter.

When believers live under that heavy burden, that they might just say or do something a split second before they pass away that will offend God and keep them from heaven, all of their lives must be spent in an intense analysis of their all that they do and say, which is condemnation, not sonship.

Sure, the principle of judgment is very true. God does judge us in this life in order to purify us, to teach us to cast aside every weight of sin, to mortify the deeds of the flesh, to run the race, to put on Christ, to die daily, and all those other phrases that relate to the second work of salvation, sanctification, which is entirely based on one's works.

However, justification has absolutely nothing to do with works, for it is by grace we are saved through faith. It is not of ourselves that we are justfied, but by contritely repenting and acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is it really that simple? I'm referring again to Oscar's post on grace:

"The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent (???) approval of God."


My questions- What about people "falling away" like in the book of Jude?
"Twice dead and plunked up by the roots"
"Demas has forsaked me having loved this present world..." sort of thing.

Or the statements in the book of Revelations where Jesus says- unless you repent (to the churches- already saved ppl) I will take away your lampstand?

I know we have "unconditional love" but does that also mean "unconditional approval?"
Is this the same as OSAS?

Or are you saying- it's a matter of ORDER. You are given this forgiveness and GIFT of righteousness which could never be earned. And in response out of love, you desire to please God by turning from sin....?

Justification is complete and permanent. When a person accepts Christ they become a child of God. But sanctification is a developing process. "Positional Sanctification" is God declaring us sanctified. "Developmental Sanctification" is the process of training our minds and bodies to conform to what God has declared us to be. This can take the rest of our lives.

If Demas walked away from the ministry because he loved this present world, it does not mean that he stopped being a child of God. Paul merely states that Demas forsook him. He did not say that he walked away from God or stopped being a child of God. Because he loved the world he may have found himself in disharmony with God. We do not know if the Holy Spirit worked on Demas to bring him back into harmony with God later on. Remember Mark left the ministry team, and Paul had a big argument with Barnabas that broke up their partnership later on when Barnabus wanted to include Mark again.

We don't know whether the people who were "falling away", were even born again to start off with. We are not told. They could have been anyone with a form of godliness, like many today who are religious but not truly born again.

We all know that the Holy Spirit can walk away from churches that do not remain faithful to God and revert to being "synagogues". All we have to do is study church history to see churches that once ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit that are now dead monuments. Yet, they are still full of very religious people, and many true Christians are part of those churches praying and working toward revival in them.

If you think that getting out of harmony with God means losing your justification, think about the times you were out of harmony with your parents. Did that cause you to stop being a member of the family? If a natural child is always a member of the family, don't you think that God's family, being greater, gives a greater security to His children?

There are lies, damned lies, demonic lies and then there are teachings that justification is not permanent and that born again Christians can be lost again. This lie is a way that the devil can hold people in bondage.

It has all to do with what we believe. The devil's whole strategy is lies and deceit. The only truth is God's Word, and this is how we defeat the devil's deceptions.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Personally, I wouldn't go to a Baptist church. I spent too long in a non-denominational church that had a Baptist theology, and I was starving to death. The church wasn't bad, but it wasn't really good either.

I wonder if you have an unrealistic expectation of the church. If you are depending on the church to feed you instead of Christ, then it is no surprise that you are starving spiritually.

I am an elder of a "middle of the road" Presbyterian church where there is little of the ministry of the gifts of the Spirit and the preaching is largely knowledge-based. If I depended completely on that church, I would be very under-nourished too.

But I don't. I have a relationship with Christ outside of the church. To me, the church is merely a fellowship centre where I can go to encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ and help build them up in their faith.

I try to preach what the Holy Spirit gives me to preach, and I am thankful that the others allow me to do this. But my main nourishment comes from my personal walk with Christ. He is the one who feeds me with His living bread.

Most of the problems, difficulties and deceptions that bring Christians into bondage come through the church, and when people put their dependence on the church to feed them, they could get fed with the wrong food. God comes before the church.

My priority list is this:

God first
My wife and family next
The church next
Anything else.

I had real problems in my first marriage when I put the church before my wife. She became very depressed because she lost the assurance of my support and loyalty to her, because when she come under attack from the lying, deceitful criticism that came from church members, I did not take a strong enough stand to protect and support her against them. I learned that if I had to choose between the church and my wife and children, I would choose my wife and children before the church. And if my church tries to drive a wedge between my family and me, for any reason, I would give that church the "big flick" without hesitation. Walking away from a church is not walking away from God. We need to know that, and if more people knew it, we would have less stress in believers when the church they go to is not operating consistently with God's Word.

 

[Tenebrae]

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

Have you ever read the book Kingdom Lost, by a guy called Mark Vrankovich, bult on the entire premise of what the world would be like as a theocracy

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

Oh boy do I know what you mean. The church I belonged to tried to tell me that I shouldnt be friends with christians from other bible believing churches. They tried to tell me that their church was the only church in NZ that was operating in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I recall one Sunday being in church and listening to the Senior Pastor lambast the young people who had stayed down at the Parachute Christian music festival (Similar to Cornerstone music festival I believe). The Senior pastor had always preached about the need to be under the word of God on a sunday, it became clear that what he really meant was being under the word of God according to him.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Baptists generally appear to be fairly solid churches. I would be nervous personally of the Southern Baptist denomination from what I have heard. Also Anglican churches (charismatic churches) can be good

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

The senior pastor called it church hoping and regulalry preached that going to other churches was sinful

It was also infered that if I left that church was the same thing as walking away from god.

It sounds like this church was apart of the new apostolic reformation movement. Not really a reformation, more of a 'forgetting too soon and repeating the mistakes of the past' movement

 

[salamacum]

"Most of the problems, difficulties and deceptions that bring Christians into bondage come through the church,"
That's quite a statement - personal experience? Can you give examples?