LDS LDS persecution complex

Daniel Marsh

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"Delusions of Persecution: This is a phrase combining the term delusion (a false belief held despite significant contradictory evidence), with the term persecution (mistreatment, discrimination, or victimization). It refers to a falsely held belief or thought that another entity (person, multiple people or a group) is on a mission to harm or mistreat them."

Personal religiosity: There appears to be an link between individual religiosity and whether someone is likely to experience delusions of persecution. Those who have a faith of personal importance are less likely to experience delusions of persecution compared to atheists. The percentages compiled from research were 73% among those with faith, versus 87% among atheists.
Delusions Of Persecution: Causes, Symptoms, Treatment - Mental Health Daily

Above I only used parts that apply, ignore the rest, I do not think it relates.

Many religions have a false sense of being persecuted, small religious groups prescution complex - Google Search

hypersensitive persecutory complex - Google Search

"According to a recently released Pew Forum poll, a whopping 46% of Mormon respondents said that Mormons face “a lot of discrimination” in modern America. No surprise there, it is a favorite theme in LDS Church meetings at all levels."The Mormon Persecution Complex

"Among self-conscious Mormons and attuned outside observers, there is a popular perception that Mormons have a peculiar sense of their own reproach. Both their beliefs and their sociocultural history, some believe, breed Latter-day Saints to be acutely aware that they are beleaguered in broader society, a feeling that’s sometimes called a “persecution complex.” Mormons are, according to this line of thought, highly sensitive to their own social marginalization. Because of this sensitivity, they are likely to see hostility to their faith, whatever the circumstances."The Mormon 'persecution complex' | LDS Living


The article points out why right-wing religions are prone to persecution complex:Persecution Complex

"History is written by those who survive to tell the events as they want them told. The history of the Mormon Church is no different. What gets told is a colorful tapestry of events which have been recorded by Mormons, edited by Mormons, taught by Mormons, and told to Mormons. While the stories of the early days of the church involving Joseph Smith, the hardships and successes of the early members, the pioneer trek west, and the settlement and build-up of Salt Lake City are often considered inspiring and faith building, many of the actual historical facts are overlooked or simply ignored by the large population of the Latter-Day Saints (LDS). For example, many Mormons don’t know the original name of the church was Church of Christ, later modified to the Church of Latter-Day Saints, and finally, in "Mormon Persecution Complex | Seth Anderson

The Mormon Persecution Complex - the give and take of Mormon persecution


The 'extermination order' is perhaps the most famous document that Mormons use to show that they are persecuted. Few know the circumstances surrounding its origin. About three months before it was issued, Sidney Rigdon delivered his famous 4th of July speech of 1838 which was partially reproduced in the church's Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, page 441 as follows:

And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.Joseph Smith approved of the speech and it was subsequently printed in The Far West, a weekly newspaper, and the church's own Elders' Journal. Joseph Smith said in History of the Church, "The oration was delivered by President Rigdon, at the close of which was a shout of Hosanna, and a song, composed for the occasion by Levi W. Hancock, was sung by Solomon Hancock. The most perfect order prevailed throughout the day." What were the non-Mormon readers supposed to think of these remarks? What were they to do when the church subsequently led battles against non-aggressive former Mormons and mistakenly led a battle against the state's own militia? A couple of faithful Mormons had this to say about the subsequent Mormon aggressions which occurred before the extermination order of Boggs:"The females hastily took from the houses what they could carry, and here I might say there was almost a trial of my faith in my pity for our enemies... Among the women was one, young married and apparently near her confinement, and another with small children and not a wagon, and many miles away from any of their friends, and snow had begun already... to fall. My sympathies were drawn toward the women and children, but I would in no degree let them deter me from duty. So while others were pillaging for something to carry away, I was doing my best to protect... the lives and comfort of the families who were dependent on getting away upon horse-back....While others were doing the burning and plunder, my mission was of mercy....Before noon we had set all on fire and left upon a circuitous route towards home."
-- Benjamin F. Johnsonand"At the time that Galeton was to be burned, I pleaded with father to let me go; but to no effect. On the appointed day I went to the top of the hill... and cast my eyes in the direction of Galeton...and saw smoke rising towards Heaven, which filled me with ambition, the love of excitement, tumult and something new...The next day I went to Bishop Knights and saw the plunder, and o what lots, I...heard them tell, in what order they took the place... The store they burned, but the goods were preserved."
-- Oliver B. HuntingtonMichael Quinn commented on the events as follows:In the skirmishes that both sides called 'battles,' Mormons used deadly force without reluctance. Benjamin F. Johnson wrote that Danite leader (and future apostle) Lyman Wight told his men to pray concerning their Missouri enemies: 'That God would Damn them & give us pow[e]r to Kill them.' Likewise, at the beginning of the Battle of Crooked River on 25 October 1838, Apostle David W. Patten (a Danite captain with the code-name "Fear Not') told his men: 'Go ahead, boys; rake them down.' The highest ranking Mormon charged with murder for obeying this order was Apostle Parley P. Pratt who allegedly took the careful aim of a sniper in killing one Missourian and then severely wounding militiaman Samuel Tarwater. This was after Apostle Patten received a fatal stomach wound. In their fury at the sight of their fallen leader, some of the Danites mutilated the unconscious Tarwater 'with their swords' striking him lengthwise in the mouth, cutting off his under teeth, and breaking his lower jaw; cutting off his cheeks...and leaving him [for] dead.' He survived to press charges against Pratt for attempted murder. (Pratt subsequently escaped from prison and resumed his position in the Quorum of 12 Apostles)
A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the extermination order and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, Mormons had attacked state troops, and this had a cascade effect. Local residents feared annihilation: 'We know not the hour or minute we will be laid in ashes,' a local minister and county clerk wrote the day after the battle. 'For God's sake give us assistance as quick as possible.' Correspondingly, the attack on state troops weakened the position of Mormon friends in Missouri's militia and government. Finally, upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the Mormons 'have made war upon the people of this state.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill. (The Mormon Hierarchy, pages 99-100)

Even though Mormons of today know next to nothing about these events and precursors to the Mormon exodus, the Mormons of the day were well aware of why they were being 'persecuted'. When Brigham Young was jockeying the presidency of the church away from Sidney Rigdon after Joseph Smith died he said, "Elder Rigdon was the prime cause of our troubles in Missouri by his fourth of July oration." (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, page 667) As B.H. Roberts said over 50 years later,The deliverance of a very noted "Oration" by Sidney Rigdon at Far West, on the Fourth of July, 1838, in the course of which there was expressed a strong determination to no more submit quietly to mob violence, and acts of pillage. At this distance of time from that occasion, and balancing against the heated utterances of the speaker the subsequent uses made of them to incite the public mind to that series of acts which culminated in the expulsion of the Saints from the state, we say those utterances were untimely, extreme, and unwise. So indeed they were. The speaker seems to have thrown discretion to the winds, and in the fervor of his rhetoric made threats of retaliation on behalf of the Saints.
Although Hinckley's letter doesn't mention it, you frequently hear Mormons claim that they were driven out of Ohio too. For much more on the Ohio issue, see Van Wagoner's book referenced above and Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1977, pages 437-38, 458 which shows that the Kirtland Bank Joseph Smith established was illegal, and he left Ohio, not because he was driven out but, in order to escape paying his debts and having to face criminal charges.

For more background on the Missouri conflict see: The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri which people have told me is the very best source to finding out both sides of this issue. BYU professor William G. Hartley's My Best For the Kingdom is also an excellent source. For a better background and history of the Mormon Trail (including accounts of the pioneers that needlessly died because they listened to leaders rather than reason) see: The Pioneer Camp of the Saints : The 1846 and 1847 Mormon Trail Journals of Thomas Bullock. [an error occurred while processing this directive]
http://www.lds-mormon.com/tmpc.shtml

https://www.google.com/search?q=LDS...CKy-jwSw8YuoAQ&start=10&sa=N&biw=1163&bih=538
 

chevyontheriver

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"According to a recently released Pew Forum poll, a whopping 46% of Mormon respondents said that Mormons face “a lot of discrimination” in modern America. No surprise there, it is a favorite theme in LDS Church meetings at all levels."
I would think that it would be a far far higher percentage among Seventh Day Adventists, approaching 98%, who have it as an article of faith that the Catholic Church will someday soon force them to worship on Sunday.
 
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Jane_Doe

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"Delusions of Persecution:...
<snip for length>
I once in conversation with other Christians, when someone (a seeker) asked "why do Christians hate Mormons so much?"

Other Christians in the group had various responses, majority of which involved telling this seeker falsehoods about what I believe. I answered "I find most Christians don't hate me at all, rather they're misinformed about what I believe and hate that. If I sit down and talk to them and explain what I believe, then ignorance is resolved and we can feel mutual love for each other".

(Abridging the story here cause I don't have a lot of time)

The Christians in the group called me a liar, literally a dog that eats it's own poop, completely denied my relationship with Christ, and kicked me out the the "Christian" establishment for even being there.




Now, I know other Christians and do feel love for them. And what I stated earlier is my honest feelings for the most part. But I cannot deny that some Christians hate me with willful ignorance and that encounters such as the above greatly hurt and cause deep pain. I have many more such encounters too.

What adds a second equally deep injury to this is when Christians call refer to these deeply scarring encounters as something as a "delusion". Frankly, that's gaslighting and abusive.
 
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Rescued One

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I once in conversation with other Christians, when someone (a seeker) asked "why do Christians hate Mormons so much?"

Other Christians in the group had various responses, majority of which involved telling this seeker falsehoods about what I believe. I answered "I find most Christians don't hate me at all, rather they're misinformed about what I believe and hate that. If I sit down and talk to them and explain what I believe, then ignorance is resolved and we can feel mutual love for each other".

(Abridging the story here cause I don't have a lot of time)

The Christians in the group called me a liar, literally a dog that eats it's own poop, completely denied my relationship with Christ, and kicked me out the the "Christian" establishment for even being there.




Now, I know other Christians and do feel love for them. And what I stated earlier is my honest feelings for the most part. But I cannot deny that some Christians hate me with willful ignorance and that encounters such as the above greatly hurt and cause deep pain. I have many more such encounters too.

What adds a second equally deep injury to this is when Christians call refer to these deeply scarring encounters as something as a "delusion". Frankly, that's gaslighting and abusive.

Perhaps you need to read your Bible. Someone who is walking in darkness is not a Christian.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Perhaps you need to read your Bible. Someone who is walking in darkness is not a Christian.
Playing the "no true Scotsman" card doesn't work here. Denying the real pain caused by the actions of people doesn't work here. Calling it an illusion doesn't work here. All those do is to perpetuate this same hatred.

Seeing people as they really are and loving them (flaws and all), that's the best course of action.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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What is the "no true Scotsman" card?

I think it is possible for a young believer to get caught in the web of LDS Church without knowing what they teach. One of my duties as an Intelligence Officer was to infuriate "cults", groups like the Unification Church to document their use of Brainwashing. One of the things I noticed was they would Start with the Bible, then in time replace it with their sources. As one got deeper into their system, things would be taught that were at one time denied to the same person. So, giving you the benefit of doubt.

A lot of what Christians outside of LDS hear is from ex-LDS, who were taught the things many Modern LDS deny when asked. It would be nice to learn what the LDS in the pew believes today.

What do you believe the Gospel is?

How do you describe God and the Trinity?

Outline your belief's about Jesus.

Do you believe He was God before coming to earth?

Do you believe that He was fully human and fully God in nature?

Is the Bible your ultimate authority of truth over all other books?

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet?

Do you see BY as authoritative?

What is your view of the Holy Spirit?

What is your understanding of the Resurrection?

Do you believe that people will become Gods one day?

Do you think those Gods will with a Goddess will have spiritual children?

What is your understanding of Isaiah 43:10?>

If someone where to show you that what early LDS taught is contrary to the Bible would you seek another church to worship at?

If so, what would you be looking for in a church?

Do you believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers in anyway?

Do you distance yourself from the Adam God Doctrine?

Thank You,
Daniel Marsh
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I would think that it would be a far far higher percentage among Seventh Day Adventists, approaching 98%, who have it as an article of faith that the Catholic Church will someday soon force them to worship on Sunday.

I have met some where that is a big problem. I have also met some who think that is a bad joke. It would be interesting to find out what the percentage is.
 
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Jane_Doe

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What is the "no true Scotsman" card?

I think it is possible for a young believer to get caught in the web of LDS Church without knowing what they teach. One of my duties as an Intelligence Officer was to infuriate "cults", groups like the Unification Church to document their use of Brainwashing. One of the things I noticed was they would Start with the Bible, then in time replace it with their sources. As one got deeper into their system, things would be taught that were at one time denied to the same person. So, giving you the benefit of doubt.

A lot of what Christians outside of LDS hear is from ex-LDS, who were taught the things many Modern LDS deny when asked. It would be nice to learn what the LDS in the pew believes today.

What do you believe the Gospel is?

How do you describe God and the Trinity?

Outline your belief's about Jesus.

Do you believe He was God before coming to earth?

Do you believe that He was fully human and fully God in nature?

Is the Bible your ultimate authority of truth over all other books?

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet?

Do you see BY as authoritative?

What is your view of the Holy Spirit?

What is your understanding of the Resurrection?

Do you believe that people will become Gods one day?

Do you think those Gods will with a Goddess will have spiritual children?

What is your understanding of Isaiah 43:10?>

If someone where to show you that what early LDS taught is contrary to the Bible would you seek another church to worship at?

If so, what would you be looking for in a church?

Do you believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers in anyway?

Do you distance yourself from the Adam God Doctrine?

Thank You,
Daniel Marsh
I will address these questions in the next thread. In the meantime, could you acknowledge to my story (post #3)?

In short, they are taught as a defense mechanism to avoid dealing with the real truth.
This post is gaslighting.
 
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Ironhold

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What is the "no true Scotsman" card?

It's what far too many mainline Christians play when they realize they have no answer for the evils done by their fellows and need a way to get out of it.

If you want to hold the LDS faith as a whole responsible for the actions of any one member, then you need to be willing to accept the same standard for yourself.
 
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Ironhold

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who were taught the things many Modern LDS deny when asked.

...Because more often than not these individuals either didn't have a proper grasp of what they were being taught or are not being honest with their audiences...

Seriously: If a person wants an easy path to wealth, all they have to do is show up to a mainline Christian congregation they've never been to before, falsely claim to be a "recovered" Mormon, spin a few good yarns, and wait for the publishing deal.
 
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dzheremi

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The Mormon persecution complex is in common with many other smaller religions and sects which take disagreement with them or disrespect for what they hold sacred to be tantamount to persecution itself. I've seen it many times on this subforum in particular, where a disagreement on some matter of theological, soteriological, ecclesiological, or other important point of principle will happening, and a Mormon poster will react by shifting the conversation to some time when a street preacher type held up a sign saying "LDS are the devil" and yelled at them, or how someone wiped their derriere with Mormon temple undergarments as a disgusting sort of "shock evangelism" or whatever (or just to be a jerk). Are those nice things to do? Of course not. Are they persecution? No, not really. Only if you somehow take people disagreeing with you or being mean to be persecution, which most people don't.

But then there are also historical examples like when it was legal back in 1838 to kill Mormons in Missouri under executive order 44, which was issued in the context of the Mormon War of that year and in effect from October 27 to November 1, 1838. During this time the Haun's Mill massacre occurred, in which 17 Mormons were murdered by Missouri state guardsmen.

So I think it is reasonable based on historical events like that that Mormons do claim that they have been persecuted, though the idea that they are now persecuted doesn't seem to be supportable based on the examples of persecution that they come up with in the current day. The fact that they conflate the two, and invoke them in incredibly inappropriate circumstances on this message board, is very telling to me with regard to the 'delusion' aspect of this discussion.
 
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Ironhold

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So I think it is reasonable based on historical events like that that Mormons do claim that they have been persecuted, though the idea that they are now persecuted doesn't seem to be supportable based on the examples of persecution that they come up with in the current day. The fact that they conflate the two, and invoke them in incredibly inappropriate circumstances on this message board, is very telling to me with regard to the 'delusion' aspect of this discussion.

Actually, there *is* still an issue with violence and threats of violence being lobbed at us, with much of it coming from people who are ostensibly "Christian".

It wasn't even that long ago that a lot of us Mormons online were comparing death threat tallies in place of likes or retweets because they were that common.

Or from what I understand at one point it was a bit of a tactic to invite someone who was Mormon in somewhere and lock the door behind them so that they couldn't get out until after they'd been "saved" or the person trying to "save" them gave up. How does that rate with you?

Nonce like that is still an issue.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Actually, there *is* still an issue with violence and threats of violence being lobbed at us, with much of it coming from people who are ostensibly "Christian".
Not persecution.
It wasn't even that long ago that a lot of us Mormons online were comparing death threat tallies in place of likes or retweets because they were that common.
Not persecution.
Or from what I understand at one point it was a bit of a tactic to invite someone who was Mormon in somewhere and lock the door behind them so that they couldn't get out until after they'd been "saved" or the person trying to "save" them gave up. How does that rate with you?
Not persecution.
Nonce like that is still an issue.
"Nonce"??
 
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dzheremi

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I got in trouble last time I attempted to post a video of what happens in places where Christians are actually persecuted (it was from the bombing of the Church of the Saints in Alexandria in 2011, if I remember correctly), but suffice it to say churches getting bombed in the middle of packed services in order to murder as many Christians as possible at once and destroy their properties and terrify the entire Christian community so that they'll leave their religion or leave the country is very much a thing that happens to Christians in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, etc.

I do not think that this sort of thing happens to LDS in any part of the world, or ever has. It seems likely to me, having spoken to many Muslims and seen how they mostly have no use for or understanding of the differences between different Christian confessions, probably Mormons in those places would be treated as Christians by the Islamists who also persecute Christians. But that's not persecution for being Mormon -- that's collateral damage from the actions of people who will kill you for being non-Muslim period.

Persecution:


ISIS-destroyed church in Iraq


Fundamental human rights are denied to Christians in Egypt

etc., etc., etc.!

Are terrorists purposely destroying Mormon places of worship and vandalizing them with anti-Mormon graffiti? No.

Are Mormons denied their political rights and their rights to worship as they wish in their own buildings which they are allowed to build after securing permits, like any other religion in the civilized world? No. Even if there are hangups with where to place a temple or how big it should be or whatever, there's just no comparison with the situation that Christians in a lot of world face.

And come on, you guys fielded a serious presidential candidate only a few years ago in Mr. Mitt Romney! Mormons are more accepted than ever, despite most Christians not considering you fellow Christians.

To call what Mormons on this website complain about as persecution is an insult to the martyrs and confessors of all churches who have actually died or otherwise suffered persecution for their faith. Surely Christians in Pakistan, certain regions of India, places like Somalia and Afghanistan, etc. would probably wish that they only had to deal with that stuff. I'd much rather be yelled at that I'm in a weird cult and suffer through an attempted 'de-programming' or coercive attempted conversion to another religion than be blown up because I went to a midnight prayer service for the new year and Islamists or others had been planning to attack Christians again.

The difference really cannot be more starkly obvious.

255832.b.jpg


vs.

alw94.jpg


Let us know when you get to the first situation (that's two Christian boys praying in a church bombed by terrorists in Egypt, just by the way). The second doesn't count, at all.
 
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Rescued One

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Playing the "no true Scotsman" card doesn't work here. Denying the real pain caused by the actions of people doesn't work here. Calling it an illusion doesn't work here. All those do is to perpetuate this same hatred.

Seeing people as they really are and loving them (flaws and all), that's the best course of action.

I played no card. I explained that you can't identify liars and haters as Christians.

1 John 2
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I was never threatened for being a Mormon and I never threatened a Mormon.
 
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Rescued One

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"Oh, that person did X? Well, they weren't really a Christian- no real Christian will do that".
Nevermind when that person is a Christian minster (for example).

If there are false Christs, false apostles, and false prophets, there are false religions and false teachers. There might even be Mormons who claim that non-Mormon ministers who are evil are Christians! That minister can't serve God and Satan!!!
 
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Ironhold

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Are terrorists purposely destroying Mormon places of worship and vandalizing them with anti-Mormon graffiti? No.

Yes.

One actual link is this one from Wikipedia about the aftermath of the Proposition 8 issue:

Protests against Proposition 8 supporters - Wikipedia

That brought to light the larger issue of LDS buildings being routinely targeted, even in the US.

The chapel I go to, for example, has been vandalized and broken into so often that the building caretaker has the cops on speed-dial. This includes one instance in which someone painted a pentagram on the front lawn and stapled a dead deer to it.

Are Mormons denied their political rights and their rights to worship as they wish in their own buildings which they are allowed to build after securing permits, like any other religion in the civilized world? No.

Yes.

1. In 1989, the government of Ghana banned the church and the Jehovah's Witnesses, in part because of fears that the two organizations were fronts for the CIA. It was nearly two years before the ban was lifted.

GHANA BANS LDS CHURCH, WITNESSES<BR> ORDER GIVING MISSIONARIES 1 WEEK TO LEAVE SURPRISES MORMON LEADERS

Various accounts hold that this ban *also* came after at least one professional anti-Mormon author lobbied government leaders as well.

2. There's a massive push in Russia to restrict "foreign" religions, and the LDS faith is often singled out by Russian politicians and pundits as a big part of why they want these restrictions in place.

This movement was in place at least as far back as 2012, which is when things got so intense NPR took notice:

In Russia, Pro-Putin Youths Protest Mormons As 'Cult'

3. During the 1980s, someone - professional critic J. Edward Decker has been accused in the past - began circulating rumors throughout South America that the CIA was hiding operatives among the LDS missionaries entering the region from America. A terrorism database that Wikipedia used to link to (website no longer works) recorded 124 incidents of anti-Mormon terror between the 1980s and early 2000s, with the vast majority of instances involving people in South America attacking LDS facilities and LDS missionaries as a result of this. This did, sadly, lead to a number of Mormons being killed.

As of the 1990s, when a relative of mine was serving in South America, the rumors were still in circulation and - along with the perception that all Americans are rich - was still a massive stumbling block for efforts in the region.

And come on, you guys fielded a serious presidential candidate only a few years ago in Mr. Mitt Romney!

1. There was a massive scandal when it was discovered that individuals within Obama's own re-election team were gearing up to circulate anti-Mormon propaganda and otherwise paint Romney as an "other" as part of their efforts. Given that Obama's team went to length to define anything and everything about Obama as "out of bounds" for discussion during the previous election, the prospect of his re-election team actively engaging in religious bigotry was a massive shock to the senses.

2. Someone or someones unknown engaged in mail fraud by sending menacing Christmas cards ostensibly from the Romney campaign and with the return address being an LDS temple.

3. It'd choke your browser if I started linking to all of the Christian essay sites, think sites, congregational sites, and others that ended up arguing or debating whether or not a mainline Christian could vote for Romney and still be considered to be "Christian".

So yeah... a lot of things went down.
 
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Ironhold

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If there are false Christs, false apostles, and false prophets, there are false religions and false teachers. There might even be Mormons who claim that non-Mormon ministers who are evil are Christians! That minister can't serve God and Satan!!!

Maybe so, but God is still being praised by his lips while he's serving Satan.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Jun 12, 2015
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I played no card. I explained that you can't identify liars and haters as Christians.
So, when a Calvinist or a Catholic or an Nondenominational person walks up to me and starts lying/hating/persecuting, what would you have me do? Interrupt their spiel about how I need to be 'saved' and inform them "You're not a Christian! Depart you who walk in darkness!" ?
 
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