Jesus Says a Church Doesn't Need a Bishop

Aussie Pete

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In JOHN 21:17--19 speaks about Peter and that he would die of old AGE , and never went to ROME !!

dan p
I don't know how you get that from the passage. The implication is that Peter would be executed. We don't know how old he was exactly. Early church history states that Peter was executed under Nero's instructions. You probably know that Nero blamed Christians for the terrible fires in Rome. The apostles in Jerusalem were the obvious targets for the authorities. I agree that Peter almost certainly never went to Rome. There is no evidence to suggest that he did. If he did, why did Paul write so comprehensively to the Roman church? There is certainly no suggestion in Acts that Peter went to Rome. He was apostle to the Jews, not Gentiles.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't know how you get that from the passage. The implication is that Peter would be executed. We don't know how old he was exactly. Early church history states that Peter was executed under Nero's instructions. You probably know that Nero blamed Christians for the terrible fires in Rome. The apostles in Jerusalem were the obvious targets for the authorities. I agree that Peter almost certainly never went to Rome. There is no evidence to suggest that he did. If he did, why did Paul write so comprehensively to the Roman church? There is certainly no suggestion in Acts that Peter went to Rome. He was apostle to the Jews, not Gentiles.

There was a significant Jewish population in Rome, as you read Paul's Epistle to the Romans you'll notice that in several places Paul seems focused on his Jewish Christian audience, for example in chapter 1 he talks about the "icky Gentile pagans" in such a way as to lull his readers into a kind of trap, which he springs on them at the beginning of Romans chapter 2,

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." - Romans 2:1-5.

Paul is establishing a larger foundation here, in which he talks about how both Jews and Gentiles are equally condemned as sinners under the Law. That's the whole point by the time we get to Romans 3 and Paul says,

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," - Romans 3:23

That's the Law, Paul has just brought the hammer of the Law to all men, both Jew and Gentile. For all have sinned, none is with excuse, nobody can escape the wrath of God.

But immediately follows that up with the Gospel,

"and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith." - Romans 3:24-25a

Remember, Paul gave us the thesis statement for this epistle back in Romans 1:16-17, the Gospel is the power of God to save all who believe, Jew and Gentile, for this Gospel reveals God's righteousness by which He makes us righteous through faith. The righteousness, Paul says later, "that is by faith"

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." - Romans 3:21-22

If Peter's ministry focus was on his fellow Jews, then Rome makes a lot more sense than Antioch. Paul went to Antioch because of his ministry to the Gentiles, because Antioch was a predominantly Gentile city, and is why followers of Jesus are first called "Christianoi" here, probably because the Greeks heard "christos" and were entirely unaware of the Jewish context (that this was a translation of Meshiach, the Anointed promised by God as Redeemer for Israel and the nations)--so all this "christos" talk possibly led the people of Antioch to refer to the adherents of this strange new religion as "christos ones", "Christianoi" aka "those of christos"--where "christos" would have sounded like "oily one" to a Greek. Thus these "oily ones" or "people who talk about the oily one". As there is a frequent agreement that "Christian" was initially meant to be a pejorative, only later being adopted as a badge of honor (e.g. 1 Peter 4:16, Acts 26:28-29)

So that Peter would leave Antioch and go to somewhere with a larger Jewish population, like Rome, which had the highest concentration of Jewish persons anywhere in the ancient Diaspora, thus the highest number of Jewish people of any city outside Judea/Galilee of anywhere in the Empire, makes a great deal of sense.

History of the Jews in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

A thriving Jewish community existed in the "Eternal City", even with the Tiberian and Claudian explulsions taken into account.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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The Roman Catholic Church, and some others, teach that to have a local church, you have to have an altar consecrated by a Bishop. The Bishop, in turn, has to have the proper Apostolic Succession and be ordained as a Bishop. Another requirement for a full church service is a parish priest who was ordained by a Bishop, and has permission from the local Bishop to perform the service.

These requirements are not in the Gospels or in the New Testament. What Jesus does say about Christians coming together is something completely different.


[Jesus says, ] “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about
anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in
heaven.
For where two or three come together in my name, there am
I with them.
"
Matthew 18:19-20 NIV

It is clear that "where two or three come together" should be taken as "where two or more come together."

According to Jesus, a church doesn't have to have a Bishop, or a priest ordained by a Bishop. Jesus doesn't tell us that a church has to have an altar, or an altar that has been consecrated. The important thing is that when two or more Christians meet in the name of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit is with them.
Christ never told us to build physical buildings (churchs) at all. The word that was translated church in the gospels transliterated is ekklēsia. It meant an assembly or gathering. For this reason, in ecclesiology circles, the church is thought of as being the true body of Christians or the original institution established by Jesus. Neither did he teach us to have any hierarchy in the church, so the whole idea of the bishop is nothing more than man trying to introduce a human hierarchy into the church of Christ.
 
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prodromos

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Christ never told us to build physical buildings (churchs) at all. The word that was translated church in the gospels transliterated is ekklēsia. It meant an assembly or gathering. For this reason, in ecclesiology circles, the church is thought of as being the true body of Christians or the original institution established by Jesus. Neither did he teach us to have any hierarchy in the church, so the whole idea of the bishop is nothing more than man trying to introduce a human hierarchy into the church of Christ.
I guess your Bible doesn't include the Old Testament.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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I guess your Bible doesn't include the Old Testament.
Why would you guess that?? I'm commenting on the Church of Christ which didn't exist during the time of the Old Testament. For that matter, neither did the word Ekklesia.
 
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prodromos

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Why would you guess that?? I'm commenting on the Church of Christ which didn't exist during the time of the Old Testament. For that matter, neither did the word Ekklesia.
The Church has existed since the garden of Eden.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Christ never told us to build physical buildings (churchs) at all. The word that was translated church in the gospels transliterated is ekklēsia. It meant an assembly or gathering. For this reason, in ecclesiology circles, the church is thought of as being the true body of Christians or the original institution established by Jesus. Neither did he teach us to have any hierarchy in the church, so the whole idea of the bishop is nothing more than man trying to introduce a human hierarchy into the church of Christ.
Yes but with one exception. The local church does have oversight or elders, however you wish to describe them. The universal church, Jesus is the Head.

"This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task."
(1 Timothy 3:1 Amplified)
 
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Dale

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Yes but with one exception. The local church does have oversight or elders, however you wish to describe them. The universal church, Jesus is the Head.

"This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task."
(1 Timothy 3:1 Amplified)

The verse that you quote also shows that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a bishop, overseer, or presbyter. We don't have to wait for higher authority to appoint our leaders.
 
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timothyu

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Mini and some major kingdoms established in the name of religion designed as governments of the secular persuasion rather than schools of learning, complete with taxation in the form of tithes. It's not a which came first, chicken or egg situation. Man makes everything in our own image first. God says we have it all backwards which is why we must reverse our ways (repent) .
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Yes but with one exception. The local church does have oversight or elders, however you wish to describe them. The universal church, Jesus is the Head.

"This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task."
(1 Timothy 3:1 Amplified)
I believe that Jesus should be the head of the entire church. I know that men from the very beginning began starting hierarchy wrangling, but in the Ekklesia there is no hierarchy, but a gathering of equals, in this case under Christ.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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The Church has existed since the garden of Eden.
That is debatable and I don't have an opinion on whether we can say with any clarity that there was a church from the beginning. What I said was that the church of Christ didn't exist. It couldn't have existed before Christ ordained it. I also stated that the word in the ancient Greek texts, Ekkleasia, which is the word that is translated "church" in the gospels, did not exist during the time of the events in the OT.
 
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Dan Perez

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Why would you guess that?? I'm commenting on the Church of Christ which didn't exist during the time of the Old Testament. For that matter, neither did the word Ekklesia.
But in Acts 7:36--38 READS , This is the one having been in the EKKLESIA // ASSEMBLY in the desert .

So there was and EKKLESIA in the OLD TESTAMENT .

dan p
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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But in Acts 7:36--38 READS , This is the one having been in the EKKLESIA // ASSEMBLY in the desert .

So there was and EKKLESIA in the OLD TESTAMENT .

dan p
Of course, the Acts are not in the Old Testament and was written after the word was invented by the Greeks. It is invariably translated as church when as you note assembly is probably a more accurate definition of the actual word as it was used in most texts. That said, all I said was that the word itself was not in use during the times of the OT and that Christ's church didn't exist until Christ Himself ordained it in the NT. Yes, there was an assembly of God's people during the time of Moses and yes, the NT authors did use the word ekklesia to describe it many centuries after the fact. I never said otherwise. It my be a matter of semantics but as the original post was about the Church (or ekklesia) of Christ, that's what my reply was about. My comments were that neither the Church of Christ or the word ekklesia existed in OT times, not that an assembly of God's people didn't exist or that the NT writers didn't use the word to describe it. Have you any reason to believe otherwise?
 
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Aussie Pete

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I believe that Jesus should be the head of the entire church. I know that men from the very beginning began starting hierarchy wrangling, but in the Ekklesia there is no hierarchy, but a gathering of equals, in this case under Christ.
Not according to the Bible. Jesus is the Head of the Church, but there are delegated authorities in the church also. It is not the universal Church but the local Church. The local church is autonomous. Even Paul could not dictate to the churches he founded, only entreat and exhort.

I suggest that you read Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5 and Acts 15:2.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Not according to the Bible. Jesus is the Head of the Church, but there are delegated authorities in the church also. It is not the universal Church but the local Church. The local church is autonomous. Even Paul could not dictate to the churches he founded, only entreat and exhort.

I suggest that you read Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5 and Acts 15:2.
As I said, men from the very beginning began wrangling for a place in the hierarchy of the church. A hierarchy that Christ never ordained.
 
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Aussie Pete

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The verse that you quote also shows that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a bishop, overseer, or presbyter. We don't have to wait for higher authority to appoint our leaders.
In the early days of the church, the apostles appointed elders. We call apostles missionaries these days. If they found a church, they should appoint elders. I believe that ideally, elders should appoint the next generation of elders. It is unfortunate that the local church is so fragmented and bears little resemblance to the biblical pattern.
 
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Aussie Pete

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As I said, men from the very beginning began wrangling for a place in the hierarchy of the church. A hierarchy that Christ never ordained.
Do you reject Paul's ministry? Either he preached the revealed word of God or he was a lying deceiver and most of the New Testament can be ignored. I don't buy that. Why do you imagine that Jesus chose 12 out of the at least 70 of His followers? Is that not a hierarchy?
 
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Dale

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Christ never told us to build physical buildings (churchs) at all. The word that was translated church in the gospels transliterated is ekklēsia. It meant an assembly or gathering. For this reason, in ecclesiology circles, the church is thought of as being the true body of Christians or the original institution established by Jesus. Neither did he teach us to have any hierarchy in the church, so the whole idea of the bishop is nothing more than man trying to introduce a human hierarchy into the church of Christ.

The Old Testament doesn’t use Ekklesia, or church, but it does use the word “congregation.”
It also uses the word “assembly.”

Ps. 22:22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I
will praise you.

Ps. 68:26 Praise God in the great congregation; praise the LORD in the
assembly of Israel.

Le. 4:14 When they become aware of the sin they committed, the
assembly must bring a young bull as a sin offering and present
it before the Tent of Meeting.

Le. 8:5 Moses said to the assembly, “This is what the LORD has
commanded to be done.”
 
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