It is pointless for Lutherans to claim episcopal succession (Бессмысленно лютеранам заявлять о епископском преемстве)

Nagomirov

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I'm sorry, but that's not what the Orthodox say. They say there is indeed significant difference between you.

The Russian Saint Ignatius Bryanchaninov writes about how the Lord brought to reason one young man, Dmitry Shepelev, and showed that the true Body of the Savior is served in Holy Communion: "He was brought up in a Page corps. One day in Lent, when the pages were talking and were already beginning the Holy Mysteries, the young man Shepelev expressed his resolute disbelief to a comrade walking beside him, so that the Body and Blood of Christ would be in the cup. When the mysteries were taught to him, he felt that he had meat in his mouth. Horror seized the young man: he stood beside himself, not feeling the strength to swallow a particle. The priest noticed the change in him and ordered him to enter the altar. There, holding a particle in his mouth and confessing his sin, Shepelev came to himself and used the Holy Mysteries taught to him" ("The Father").
 
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Look at the icons I have given: the icons, they are of Byzantine script, reflect transubstantiation; look at the quote from Theophylact, look at the two stories I have given from the Ancient Pateric.

"Then again, Orthodox Eucharistic theology does not explain the change of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ as a result of “transubstantiation,” the teaching that the “accidents” (visible properties) of the elements remain unaltered, while their “substance” or inner essence becomes the actual Body and Blood. ."


"Transubstantiation as a Roman Catholic doctrine is the use of Aristotelian philosophical categories of “substance” (what makes a thing what it is) and “accidents” (incidental attributes of a thing) to explain how it is that the bread and wine of the Eucharist still appear to be bread and wine (in their “accidents”) while having undergone a change in their “substance” to be the Body and Blood of Christ. This explanation goes beyond simply stating that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood.

Orthodox Christians believe in the Real Presence and accept it as a mystery. Western theology tends to approach theological matters via the use of reason; this is a legacy of Augustinianism and the medieval Scholastics, who applied the techniques of Greek philosophy to the investigation of theological matters. Orthodoxy believes that certain matters are beyond the use of reason, so it is presumptuous for us as limited human beings to think that we can use our reason to understand that which is beyond us. As a consequence, we Orthodox are comfortable with accepting mysteries like the Real Presence as what they are—mysteries, without feeling obliged to explain them."

These are Orthodox sources explicitly stating that Orthodoxy does not take transubstantiation as its position on the Eucharist.
 
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Nagomirov

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I'm sorry, but that's not what the Orthodox say. They say there is indeed significant difference between you.

Orthodox and Catholics even have the same understanding of Redemption, bringing satisfaction to Divine Justice:

St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

"The Savior endured this, having pacified (Col. 1:20) by the blood of the Cross the heavenly and earthly. For we were enemies because of sin; and God ordained death for the sinner. Which of the two should have been: was it necessary to put to death according to justice, or was it necessary to violate the definition out of humanity? But note the wisdom of God: He has preserved both the truth of the definition and the power of humanity. Christ lifted up the sins on the body onto the tree, so that by His death we may be free from sin and live in truth (1 Peter 2:24).

The one who died for us was not important; the Lamb was not sensual; he was not a simple man; he was not only an Angel, but God who became man. The iniquity of sinners was not so important as the truth of the one who died for them. We have not sinned so much as He who laid down His life for us has done the truth; he laid it down when He was willing, and again when he was willing to accept it. And do you want to know that He did not forcibly end His life, and that He did not betray the Spirit against His will? He cried out to the Father, saying, Father! In Your hands I commit My Spirit (Luke 23:46). I betray you to receive it; and this river, give up the spirit (Matthew 27:50); but not for a long time, because he soon rose from the dead again."

_________________________

Source: Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Catechetical teachings, XIII 33 // Catechetical and secret teachings. M., 1900. pp. 197-198
 
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Nagomirov

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I'm sorry, but that's not what the Orthodox say. They say there is indeed significant difference between you.

Saint Nectarius of Aegina:

"The Savior as the Great Hierarch brought Himself to God the Father in the immaculate Slaughter, and propitiatory Sacrifice (θυσίαν ἱλαστήριον), made-Generating and Bring, and thereby satisfied and satisfied Divine justice (ἱκανοποίησε δικαιοσύνην τὴν θείαν), are offended by sin the transgression of God's law.

As a sinless Representative of the human race before God and the Father, He took upon Himself all the punishment that a sinful person was worthy of. He poured out His precious and saving Blood on the Cross, thereby sealing the New Covenant that He made with the Father, so that through this Covenant everyone who believes in the Savior and confesses His propitiatory death on the cross is saved.

This Sacrifice washes and cleanses humanity; it cleansed and washed the human race from the filth of sin and sanctifies believers in Christ and those who are baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, who established the New Testament."

____________________

Source: Νεκτάριος Αἰγίνης, ἅγ. Χριστολογία, 1.12.2.1. Ἀθῆναι, 1900. Σ. 188
 
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"CHRIST HAS BECOME OUR REDEMPTION"

St. Nicholas Cavasila:

"12. It is not in the power of men to raise up a fallen man, and human righteousness cannot free people from malice, since sin offends God Himself, as it is said: "By transgressing the law you dishonor God" (Rom. 2:23). Therefore, the virtue that could free [a person] from accusation should be higher than human.

13. After all, nothing is easier for an insignificant person than to offend a great one, but he cannot repay the insult with honor (τιμῇ), especially when his debt is enormous, and the offended person himself surpasses him so much that it is impossible even to measure the distance between them. For whoever wants to eliminate the accusation must compensate for the damage done to the honor of the offended, and moreover in excess, in order to restore what was lost, and to apply in addition, in compensation for the offense inflicted. But if it is impossible to cover the already committed [offense] in any way, who can dare to do more?

14. Therefore, no man could reconcile God with himself by bringing his own righteousness to pay his debt. Therefore, the old law could not “abolish enmity” (Ephesians 2:15), and zeal alone would not be enough for those living in grace to reconcile. For both are nothing more than works of human power and human righteousness. After all, blessed Paul calls the law itself human righteousness when he says, referring to the old law, that [people] did not obey “the righteousness of God ... striving to establish their own righteousness” (Rom. 10:3), since the law was sufficient against our calamities only to prepare us for health and make [us] worthy of the doctor's hand. For, as he says, “the law was for us a guide to Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:24), and blessed John baptized into the one to come, and all human philosophy, and all work — all this is just a kind of threshold and preparation for true righteousness.

15. And so, when we could not show righteousness by ourselves, Christ Himself “became for us righteousness from God, sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30) and, “having abolished the enmity of the Flesh" (Ephesians 2:15), reconciles God with us, not only for nature in general (φύσει κοινῶς), when he died, but every time for each of the people: then — as the crucified, now — as the organizer of the Meal, whenever we ask for forgiveness, repenting of our sins.

After all, He alone was able to pay all the appropriate honor to the One who gave birth, and to cover the deprivation thereof: the first — with life, the last — with death. For by death, accepted on the Cross for the glory of the Father, having fully and abundantly paid for the insult inflicted by us, He restored the honor taken away by our sins at this great price. With His life, He gave every honor—and how much it was fitting for Him to honor His Father, and how much it was fitting for a Father to be honored."

_____________________________

Source: Nicolaus Cabasilas. De Vita in Christo, 4.12-15 // SC. 355. P. 272-276
 
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St. Nicholas Cavasila:

"51. God is dead. The blood shed on the Cross is God's Blood. What could be more precious than this death? What's scarier than her? How did human nature sin so much that only at such a great price could this sin be abolished? What kind of ulcer should it be in order to need such treatment?

52. For in order to abolish sin, some kind of punishment was necessary, so that, having paid a decent price for what we had sinned before God, we would be spared from condemnation; after all, someone who had already suffered a well-deserved punishment could not be accused of the same crime again. But there was no one among the people who was free from guilt and therefore able to suffer in place of others, since no one could even bear their own punishment; moreover, the whole family [ours], even if it were possible [for each person] to die a thousand times, would still not be able to bring due payment. For what is valuable in the sufferings of a pitiful slave who has crushed the royal image and insulted such exalted greatness?

53. That is why the sinless Lord endures long terrible [torments] and dies; takes a blow, becoming a man and standing up for people; frees the family from condemnation and grants prisoners freedom, since He Himself, God and the Lord, had no need for it.

The reason that true life passes to us through the death of the Savior is the following.

54. How do we introduce [this true life] into our souls? By performing the Sacraments — Ablution, Anointing and eating from the sacred Meal. Christ dwells with those who do this, makes them His dwelling place, combines and unites with them, destroys sin, embodies His life, His dignity in them and shares His victory with them. Oh goodness! He places a crown on those who wash themselves and proclaims those who eat of [His] victory Parties.

55. But why is this so? How do the font, the myrrh and the meal give the crown of victory — the fruit of labor and sweat? Because when we join them, although we do not perform any feat and do not work, we glorify the perfect feat, marvel at the triumph, worship the victorious banner (τρόπαιον) and show our love for the Hero (ἀριστεύς) — so strong that it cannot be expressed in words. Moreover, we make His wounds, sufferings, and death our own; we take them upon ourselves as much as possible and eat our own Flesh of the Slain and Resurrected. That is why, of course, we also enjoy the benefits that came from His exploits and death."

____________________________

Source: Nicolaus Cabasilas. De Vita in Christo, 1.51-55 // SC. 355. P. 122-126
 
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SAINT THEOPHAN THE RECLUSE ON THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF SALVATION

"Our perdition consists in two evils: first, in angering God by violating His will, in losing His favor and subjecting ourselves to a lawful oath; secondly, in damaging and disturbing our nature by sin or in losing true life and tasting death. Why is it necessary for our salvation: firstly, the propitiation of God, the removal of the lawful oath from us and the return of God's favor to us; secondly, the quickening of us who were killed by sin, or the granting of new life to us.

If God remains merciless to us, we cannot receive any mercy from Him; if we do not receive mercy, we will not be granted grace; if we do not receive grace, we will not be able to have a new life. Both are necessary: the lifting of the oath, and the renewal of our nature. For even if we had received forgiveness and pardon in any way, but remained unrenewed, we would not have received any benefit from it, because without renewal we would constantly remain in a sinful mood and would constantly exude sins from ourselves, and through sins we would again be condemned and disgraced, or everyone would remain in that the same pernicious condition.

Both are necessary; but neither can take place without the incarnation of God."

Source: Theophan the Recluse, svt. The outline of Christian Morality, 1.A.A. M., 2010. pp. 21-22
 
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THE GREEK THEOLOGIAN PROF. JOHN KARMIRIS ON THE ATONEMENT

"The Ecumenical First Council dogmatically proclaimed the common faith of the ancient and undivided Church, which later became the faith of the entire Christian world in "the one Lord Jesus Christ ... for our sake, and for our salvation, descended and incarnated and became human, and suffered, and on the third day rose and ascended into heaven." This is how the New Testament teaching was dogmatized, that the incarnate Son and the Word of God saved the sinful and fallen human race, "delivered us from the power of darkness and brought us into His Kingdom; and in Him we have redemption by His Blood and forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:13-14). "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). This salvation was realized by the Savior through all that happened during His appearance on earth, through all his redemptive work (ἀπολυτρωτικὴ δρᾶσις); "through His birth or incarnation, also baptism, suffering and resurrection, He freed nature from the sin of the ancestor, from death and corruption" [1]. In other words, he saved people through His incarnation and works of His threefold dignity — prophetic, high priestly and royal; "he became for us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30), so that in him "we have redemption by His blood, forgiveness of sins, according to riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7). Precisely speaking, salvation was accomplished through the medium of incarnation, a teaching that served as a model for imitation of a propitiatory life (ἐξιλαστηρίου) The Sacrifice of the Cross, resurrection, ascension, sitting at the right hand of the Father, the sending down of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the foundation of the Church by "Our Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Tim. 1:10), "who is the Savior of all men" (1 Tim. 4:10).

Through His divine incarnation, the Savior began His redemptive work, in His teaching before the time of the Crucifixion He showed His prophetic dignity, in the propitiatory Sacrifice of the Cross — the high priestly, and through the resurrection, sitting at the right hand of the Father and the foundation of the Church — the royal. Thus, the salvation of the human race began from the incarnation of the Son and the Word of God, from His very conception on the day of the Annunciation of the Most Holy Theotokos, His perception of human nature from the Most Pure Virgin and the combination of this nature with His Divine nature. Salvation unfolded in the teaching work and all His earthly redemptive ministry and culminated in the propitiatory Sacrifice of the Cross and His resurrection from the dead, as well as the foundation on the day of Pentecost of the Ark Church, the guardian and giver of salvation and the universal sacrament of salvation. "For the coming of Christ in the flesh, the predestination of the gospel rules of life, for suffering, the cross, burial, resurrection, so that a person saved through imitation of Christ would accept the ancient sonship thereof" [2]. Salvation will be completed at the end of time in the Heavenly Kingdom of God…

The Savior accomplished the salvation of the human race mainly through His Sacrifice on the Cross, which He offered to the Heavenly Father out of unspeakable love for a sinful man, which reconciled man to God the Father with the blood of the Savior (Rom. 5:10) and made "one of both" (Eph. 2:14). Out of great obedience to the Father, the Savior was "betrayed for our sins" (Rom. 4:25) and "died for sin" (Rom. 6:11) in order to redeem people from sin, corruption and death. He "became an oath for us" (Gal. 3:13), killed the curse and sin in Himself and combined humanity with God through himself, since all people were "sold to sin" (Rom. 7:14). So, according to the teachings of the New Testament (and above all, ap. The main source of remission of sins and salvation for people is the Savior's death on the Cross, which has a substitutionary (ἀντιπροσωπευτικόν) character, from which came the remission of sins, Divine grace and reconciliation of people with God, "because God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing their crimes to people" (2 Cor. 5:19). This happened because God, combining love and justice, as it were, transferred the sins of people to the sinless and righteous Jesus, and His righteousness to sinful people. "He made him who knew no sin a sin offering for us, so that in him we might become righteous before God" (2 Cor. 5:21), for "He himself lifted up our sins with His body on the tree" (1 Pet. 2:24), washed and forgave them with "His blood" (Rom. 3:25), so that "we, having been delivered from sins, live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24).

The Lord descended into the world "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deliver man "from the law of sin and death" and to free him "from this body of death" (Rom. 7:24). The true, unique and successor—less great high priest of the New Testament has descended (Heb. 4:14 et seq.), Who, as the only and only mediator between God and men, Priest and Sacrifice, offered Himself once- an undefeated, perfect and true propitiatory Sacrifice, as a merciless and sinless one The immaculate and pure Lamb of God, who takes upon himself the sins of the world (1 Peter 1:19; Jn. 1:29), whose blood "cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7; Heb. 9:11). In the same way, through His blood sacrifice, which has infinite and eternal propitiatory power, the Savior, having become "the propitiation for our sins and the whole world" (1 John 2:2, 4, 10), washed away all sins, propitiated God and reconciled us to Him, pacifying and uniting the divided. He "paid our debt by pouring out a ransom for us (Heb. 9:12), worthy of both attention and surprise, we really became free, for the blood of the Son is sufficient to plead with the Father, and worthy of reverence." [3] "He revived us who were dead in sins ... together with Him, forgiving us all sins, destroying the handwriting that was against us by teaching about us, and He took it from the midst and nailed it to the cross ... to present us holy and blameless and innocent before Himself" (Col. 2:13-14; 1:22). Thus, the Redeemer voluntarily suffered a propitiatory death, "became a slave in our place and for us" [4]; "the Word took upon itself the judgment and, having suffered in the flesh for all, gave salvation to all" [5], "grace and truth" (John 1:17).

From the above, it can be concluded that Christ's death on the Cross is a propitiatory Sacrifice, brought by him out of unspeakable love to God in a substitutionary way for all people (see 2 Cor. 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:6), which became a source of salvation for all. Therefore, through the supreme and incomparable sacrifice of Calvary, the Savior "redeemed" and "redeemed" us (see Gal. 3:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:18), brought His life, His Blood as "atonement" or "ransom" (Mt. 20:28; Mk 10:45; 1 Tim. 2:6; Rom. 3:25; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:12; 1 Pet. 1:19); He died "righteous for the unrighteous" (1 Pet. 3:18). The fruit of His Sacrifice is "propitiation" (1 John 2:2; Heb. 2:17; Rom. 3:25), which blotted out the sin and guilt of people, which had the effect of eliminating enmity and reconciling them with God, adopting them to God and salvation (Rom. 5:10-11; 2 Cor 5:19; Col. 1:20; Ephesians 2:14-17). Thus, people regained adoption as sons of God by grace in Christ Jesus, the only Son of God in essence, who became human and suffered for them. This Sacrifice of the Redeemer's ineffable redemptive love was offered only "once" because it is absolutely perfect (Heb. 7:27-28; 10:10), has eternal efficacy (Hebrews 10:12, 14), infinite and all-encompassing (καθολική) power for all people at all times and throughout the universe (1 John 2:2; Col. 1:20; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:6).

Only this perfect Sacrifice restored the communion of grace between the Creator and the creation, which regained adoption to God (Gal. 4:5); then a new and Divine life began for people, for "the ancient things have passed away, now everything is new" (2 Cor. 5:17). Man partakes of this new and divine life when he gets rid of sin and becomes a "partaker of the divine nature" (1 Peter 1:4), thus gaining Salvation."

______________________________________________

Author: John Karmiris is a professor of dogmatic and symbolic theology at the University of Athens, the largest Greek historian of the doctrine, publisher of the collection of dogmatic and symbolic texts of the Orthodox Church.

Source: Καρμίρης Ἰ. Ὀρθόδοξον Τὸ δόγμα τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ σωτηρίας. Ἀθῆναι, 1983. Σ. 5-7, 10-13

[1] John of Damascus, Rev. The exact exposition of the Orthodox faith 4, 13 // The Complete Collection of works. St. Petersburg, 1913. p. 309
[2] Basil the Great, svt. About the Holy Spirit, 15 // Creations. Moscow, 2008. Vol. 1. P. 80
[3] John of Damascus, Rev. Three words of defense against rejecting holy icons 1, 21 // The complete collection of creations. St. Petersburg, 1913. p. 358
[4] Athanasius the Great, St. The word on Arians 1, 43 // Creations. Serg. P., 1902. Vol. 2. p. 233
[5] Ibid. 1, 60 // Ibid., p. 256
 
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Nagomirov

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I'm sorry, but that's not what the Orthodox say. They say there is indeed significant difference between you.

If you carefully read the words I have quoted above, you will notice that Orthodox and Catholics even have the same understanding of the Atonement.
 
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If you carefully read the words I have quoted above, you will notice that Orthodox and Catholics even have the same understanding of the Atonement.
There's lots we all agree on. That doesn't change the fact that there are significant disagreements and differences between Orthodox and Catholic theology, including when it comes to ministry and sacraments.
 
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"Then again, Orthodox Eucharistic theology does not explain the change of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ as a result of “transubstantiation,” the teaching that the “accidents” (visible properties) of the elements remain unaltered, while their “substance” or inner essence becomes the actual Body and Blood. ."

Explains it. It's just that you haven't read the Orthodox dogmatic manuals. After the transfiguration/transformation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, the external signs of bread and wine remain, what Catholics call accidents, whereas the very essence of bread and wine has been transformed into the essence of the Body and Blood of Christ. Orthodoxy is full of stories when people who doubt transubstantiation felt raw flesh in their mouths. Or they saw blood, raw flesh, in a bowl visually with their eyes.
 
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There's lots we all agree on. That doesn't change the fact that there are significant disagreements and differences between Orthodox and Catholic theology, including when it comes to ministry and sacraments.

There is no sacramental difference. Sacramentology is the same, the same!
 
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Paidiske

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There is no sacramental difference. Sacramentology is the same, the same!
I've given you a pile of quotes saying otherwise. I suspect there might be a difficulty of language going on.

I will bow out now, unless you wish to address the actual point I made in my first post, and instead suggest that @The Liturgist might find this an interesting discussion.
 
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There's lots we all agree on. That doesn't change the fact that there are significant disagreements and differences between Orthodox and Catholic theology, including when it comes to ministry and sacraments.

You just want to justify your being in Protestantism, to justify the Protestant understanding. So you want, you want the Orthodox understanding not to correspond with the Catholic one, you want it not to coincide. And Sacramentology is the same.
 
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You just want to justify your being in Protestantism, to justify the Protestant understanding. So you want, you want the Orthodox understanding not to correspond with the Catholic one, you want it not to coincide.
Even if Catholic and Orthodox don't agree, that doesn't automatically justify Anglicanism (although, of course, I'm convinced of the validity of my own tradition). However, it is my best understanding that there is real difference between them (often downplayed by the Catholics, but strongly asserted by the Orthodox).
 
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Есть многое, с чем мы все согласны. Это не отменяет того факта, что между православным и католическим богословием существуют существенные разногласия и различия, в том числе и в том, что касается служения и таинств.

Если бы сакраментальное понимание православных и католиков отличалось, не совпадало, то католики не признавали бы таинств православных, в том числе и священства. Тогда мы были бы за католиков, как вы англикане. Католики признают нашу сакраментологию, но не вашу! Точно так же православные признают священство католиков, принимают их в подобающем им достоинстве, как пример: Габриэль Бунге, Константин Симон.
 
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Even if Catholic and Orthodox don't agree, that doesn't automatically justify Anglicanism (although, of course, I'm convinced of the validity of my own tradition). However, it is my best understanding that there is real difference between them (often downplayed by the Catholics, but strongly asserted by the Orthodox).

I'm tired of proving that the Orthodox are not a camel. Turn on the logic. Catholics recognize the Sacramentology of the Orthodox, while they do not recognize the Sacramentology of the Anglicans and Lutherans. Catholics recognize the priestly rank of the Orthodox, Catholics do not recognize the priestly rank of Anglicans and Lutherans. I won't answer any more.
 
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Nagomirov

Russian Orthodox Church
Mar 28, 2024
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Алтайский край, город Рубцовск
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Catholics recognize the Eucharist of the Orthodox, Catholics do not recognize the Eucharist of the Anglicans and Lutherans! Our Sacramentology is recognized, Protestant Sacramentology is not recognized.
 
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