Is the Mass a Holy Sacrifice?

[BreadAlone]

-I must firstly apologize to Athanasias for being like, oh, two weeks late. LOL I had this saved in Word, I just forgot to post it. -

I want to thank my worthy opponent Athanasias for this very interesting discussion on the nature of the Mass and its potential to be a Sacrifice. It is always interesting to me that, when delving into the doctrinal stances between the Catholic and Lutheran Churches, they so often turn out to be a lot more similar than both sides would care to admit. I think where both sides find stumbling blocks is in the point at which the actual interpretation of doctrine is brought into its truest light.
And that’s where this debate has brought us. The fact of the matter is, the way that Athanasias has explained the Mass as a Sacrifice fits almost completely with Lutheran theology. The Mass is not a re-presentation of the Cross in the sense that Christ is being re-Sacrificed; per Roman Catholic Theology, Christ on the Cross 2,000 years ago is being brought to the communicant as an assurance of sins forgiven in a very meaningful way. While I require deeper spiritual consideration on my own part to sort between Catholic, Protestant,, and Lutehran Theologies alike on the topics of Sacraments and Means of Grace, what I can say is that this much of the Catholic stance fits oh so nicely with Lutheran Theology, particularly in regards to our stance on Holy Baptism.
Where the tension and separation begins to arise is when Roman Catholics attempt to present the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice; or at least Lutherans/Protestants perceive them as doing so. Another main issue arises when Catholics put forth that Holy Communion is a work that we MUST do. Certainly we can do nothing to merit salvation, as I have attempted to prove throughout this thread, but that is a topic moreso for another time. What the truth of the matter is is that the Sacraments are works presented TO US by the Holy Spirit.
Now for my final rebuttals:

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] Clearly God chooses to give us salvation by his free gift of grace through faith and the sacraments as scripture shows. Now God establishes the sacraments as the “normative means” of salvation and sanctification for us. This does not mean that God cannot work outside of the sacraments to justify and sanctify a person. He does. Scripture doesn’t deny that. This also does not deny that we must also have a living faith in Christ to be saved. Salvation and sanctification are a process biblically. There are many things that sanctifiy us. For instance scripture shows us our faith sanctifies us. And that’s true but scripture also shows us that the sacrament of baptism sanctifies us too.[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”(1 Cor 6:11)[/font]

Okay up to this point.[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']It isn’t a either or situation. Either faith or baptism. It’s a both and situation . Its both faith and baptism that sanctify and justify one as St. Paul shows. No doubt that it is the Holy Spirit who works through the waters of baptism to save you but the fact is it is through the waters of the sacrament of baptism that the Holy Spirit applies the grace of sanctification and initial justification to individuals. I no of no Lutheran who denies this. That is why they baptize infants as many Lutheran seminary students told me. So again the protestant is in a pickle here. Jesus Commanded us to baptize (Matt 28:19-20). Baptism is one of the normative means Christ gives his church for salvation. Baptism gives initial salvation and sanctification (1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:21). The Lutheran minister obeys Christ’s and administers baptism even to infants for their salvation. Is Baptism a work of the Mosaic Law then as Paul condemns in Romans and Galatians? If so then the Lutheran minister is in trouble as he performs baptisms for the salvation of souls(infants) obeying Christ command. [/font]

As I said, I am unclear of my personal stance as far as sanctification through mere baptism goes. But from a Lutheran Theological perspective, this is farily accurate, so long as you realize that it is the Word through the Waters of Baptism by the work of the Holy Spirit that saves. And there in lies the problem with your last point. It is not the pouring on of water by a Lutheran Minister that does the saving. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Baptism is the fulfillment of the mosaic ritual law of Circumsiscion(Col 2:11-13). Baptism is NOT a work of the mosaic law. It is the new covenant that replaces the old under Christ new law(Gal; 6:2) the law of love(Gal 5:6). This law of love includes Christ free gift us grace which is poured out upon us at baptism (Titus 3:5-7 Rom 6:23) not as a work of the law that binds us or by some great things that we do or boast about but rather as a gift that is given to us by Christ and commanded for our salvation. We simply obey Christ and perform the sacraments then out of humble obedience to him and his commands not out of a boasting set of works that we can do. It is Christ and his grace that do all the saving work of the sacrament to save us, we simply perform them out of obedience to Christ word.[/font]

As long as you do not imply that it is your works doing the saving. Your choice to be baptized or not does not place you higher with God. It is God’s grace that draws you closer to him.[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Some fundamentalist Christians condemn Lutheran teachings on infant baptism and baptismal regeneration because they say that it is a work! But we know it is not! So why then can you not see that when the Catholic priest obeys Christ command and offers his Body and blood(Luke 22:19) on the altar that this is not a mosaic or boasting work? It is something Christ commanded. It is a free gift from Christ to us for our salvation and sanctification just as baptism is. Just like baptism the Eucharist applies the saving graces of Christ Cross to us.[/font]

So long as you acknowledge that the moment of Salvation occurs the second the Holy Spirit creates faith in one’s heart, okay. I mean, this is in correspondence with the Lutheran term “Means of Grace..”

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Here again is where we disagree. Perhaps we really need to debate justification from a biblical point of view because there is so much scripture illustrating the Catholic point of view on this. This gets into the mystery of predestination. God certainly does choose us but he does not muscle us over and make us obey him. There is also a sense in which we choose God. Our will is free. God calls us and gives us his grace which enables us to choose him or not but we must choose him (by the power of his grace) out of our own will in the end. Scripture is plain on this one:[/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."(Josh 24:15).[/font]

I like this Lutheran hymn when discussin this topic:
“Lord, ‘tis not that I did choose you, that I know could never be. For this heart would still refuse you, had your grace not chosen me. You have washed the sin that stains me, calling me to be your own. For this purpose you ordained me: that I live for you alone.”
The Holy Spirit calls us by the gospel. We can not choose God, we can only resist Him.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']We do continue to work out our sanctification out of love and obedience to him, but we also continue to work out our salvation too out of fear and trembling.[/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”(Phil 2:12-13)[/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']We offer the mass out of love but we must also stay in a right relationship with God if we commit sin or else we too can be cut off (Rom 11:22, Heb 10:26-27). So we must obey as Paul says and work out our salvation with Gods grace, a living faith, and with the sacraments he gives us especially the Mass and confession. It is God that works in us to will and work for his pleasure and in obedience to him we offer his sacraments (the Eucharist) as a way of working out our own salvation by his grace because it is his Cross that propitiates our sins and the Mass is his Cross applied to us today in time and space.[/font]

The Catholic stance is that we are infused with Grace, correct? i.e. Christ, the “Saints”, Mary, etc. lived all these good deeds, and now they are infused into us, and we must work them out to be saved. This is where the problem is! We cannot work out our salvation. Sanctification is a continued process, correct, but we have been saved since the moment the Holy Spirit gave us faith. We cannot become “more saved,” we can only strengthen our faith.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Yes I would say that too! But I would say its much more than just that. I would say that you’re wrongly divorcing the idea that the sacraments are Christ Jesus Cross applied to us today. They are the work of Christ they are not separate from it. It is Jesus who saves. And it is Jesus who is saving us through the sacraments. The Sacraments themselves are channels of his Grace that Christ himself uses to save us by applying the graces of his cross to us in them.[/font]

As I just said, the problem is we cannot be “saved more.” We can only be strengthen and further assured in the faith WE ALREADY HAVE.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Actually this verse proves the Catholic point very well. What is Paul describing here? Look at the context. Paul is describing initial salvation through baptism. Coming to Christ is a free gift not a work we do or boast about. Baptism is not a work we can boast in or say look what I did to save myself. Baptism as I have already shown is not a work of the mosaic law. Baptism is the free gift(Rom 6) that Jesus gives us for salvation(1 Peter 3:21, Jn 3:3-5) and commands us to perform(Matt 28:19-20) as a the normative means for salvation(Titus 3:5-7). Baptism give us initial salvation as the scripture plainly shows. If you feel that baptism is work then you are in a pickle here because your own ministers baptize infants for salvation. Now what work could a infant possibly do to save himself? None! Baptism is the free gift and infant baptism shows this plainly. I remember several Lutheran seminary students who would agree with me on this.[/font]

From the Lutheran perspective, baptism grants one faith. So it is the grace of God through faith which saves. And what aspect of baptism has the potential to give faith? Tbe WORD. So, if a heart is resisting the Truth of the Gospel, even Baptism will not save them.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Amen! We would agree 100% but listen to scripture:[/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,”(1 Peter 3:21)[/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']It’s ok to say baptism saves you. Our first Pope Peter said it. Of course we believe that the Holy Spirit is the one who saves you in baptism but we still must maintain that the sacraments (of baptism in this case) is how the Holy Spirit saves you initially.zv[/font]

Fair enough..

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I am not sure what you mean by wide variety of interpretations. There is only one Catechism. If a Catholic teaches against the teachings in the Catechism or the ecumenical councils he is out of line with his churches teaching. The church allows some freedom of interpretation as long as it does not contradict the official teachings of the Church. So I do not know what you mean. We have liberal scholars who are out of line with the churches teaching but that doesn’t make them good Catholics or even devout Catholics and that doesn’t mean they teach real Catholic theology. All denominations have those. As to the abuses issue. I can understand what you mean. But also remember Judas and Peter(who denied Christ 3 times). If you were a early convert would you want to stay in a church who saw its own leaders deny their God and betray them? All people are sinful and fall. There have been many many wonderful Catholic Popes and saints throughout the 2000 year history of the church too even in the middle ages. We do not say we are impeccable. We do say that Christ teachings through his church are infallible regardless of the personal character of “some” of its leaders. Jesus illustrated this point several times in the New Testament. Even though Peter would deny Jesus the Lord gave him the protection against the Devil (LK 22:31-32) and ability to lead the church. Catholics (and early Christians) see this as a divine office of leadership parrellel to the Davidic prime minister(Isaiah 22:20-24 Matt 16:13-19). Remember Peter the sinner also wrote 2 infallible epistles by Christ power. It is the Power of Christ that protects the teaching of the church (so it would not fail Matt 16:13-19) not the individual. It is Christ who promises his Church would not fail and it is Christ who speaks through his Church(Lk 10:16) It is the power of God through the third person of the Holy Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit, that Christ gives us to guide the Church into all doctrinal truth (Jn 16:13-14). This is why we can call the Christ Church the pillar and foundation of all truth(1 Tim 3:15). Christ is the Truth and he sets up sacred offices in the Church and teaches his truth through them even through sinful human beings like Peter. Think of it this way. The Presidency is a good office in the USA. Now just because there have been corrupt presidents that did bad things does not mean that the office is bad. The same can be said for the papacy on a bigger level because the office of papacy is a divine institution that Jesus himself gave the church and speaks through it on matters of faith and moral (But not necessarily practice as we have had sinners in the office). Infallibility not impeccability.[/font]

Whether or not you realize it, a great majority of Catholics believe they HAVE to do things (like the rosary and communion and church and tithing.) to get into heaven. This is what I am referring to.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Bread alone there is no way you could possibly begin to even know what you left at the age of five. I understand you had to because of your parents. But you owe it to yourself to at least look into the Catholic claims. I did when I was 14-19 years old and I was surprised by Catholic truth on a biblical, historical,, and even miraculous level. I would again suggest a few good books.[/font]

My two major problems in the Catholic church is the tolerance of false doctrines (I’m referring to doctrines against your OWN theology) and the Theology of Glory. Otherwise I think you’re very close to Lutheranism..

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I really enjoyed debating this but even more so really enjoyed listening to you and learning more about the Lutheran position on this subject. You are a worthy opponent and a devout Christian brother. I hope we can be good friends for a long time. Maybe we can debate the biblical and historical reasons for the Immaculate conception of Mary sometime or Justification. Any way Bread alone I wish you well and I ask God to now bless you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit Amen! Peace be with you always.[/font]

I hope all of these things too, my brother.
In the love of the Lamb,
BreadAlone

 

[Hentenza]

The debate has concluded. I want to thank both you for your participation and a job well done. May God bless you both.

Debate thread is now closed.