Is Mary the Woman in Revelation 12?

[WarriorAngel]

Didn't John receive a charge from Jesus to look after Mary ? I note John made no mention of Mary in his epistles.

AS previously stated, she was rarely mentioned by name.
The Lord's Church kept the truth intact.
Even St John, when wishing to speak face to face, or in person he would not mention her in any writing, though she was under his charge to care for.

It is not that she was unnecessary, or ignored, but rather as SHE SAID - she was venerated. Venerable. To be regarded as holy.
When one is venerated, you do not go against their virtue of humility and simplicity.

AND in the beginning in the years of the Apostles, much was left coded because if the messenger was caught and arrested, they did not wish the author to be necessarily known nor the Lord's Mother.

It's not they did not regard her, but regarded and protected her very well.

AND this is exactly why 'Babylon' was CODE for Rome.
They knew the chances of interception were real.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, this is secular authority. A country, and or trade in money.

Yes - get that...

And Rev 21, the woman referred to is the New Jerusalem.

It seems in this end time scenario after judgements, Mary would be venerated, yet there is no mention of such. However there is no mention of Moses, David, Elijah, John the Baptist either...

There would surely be no reason to keep her identity hidden at this point ?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Rev 12: 6 , 14 seem to suggest God was more than able to hide and protect. He also did this with Jesus several times.

Oh and to go back to how she was hidden and protected.

Imagine the persecution of the early Church and the Apostles. 10 were martyred.
Now imagine them writing to the 'underground Churches' about Our Lady... when it is a known factual account they wrote in code.

I suspect Jesus did not want His Mother to be physically found, nor persecuted, but fully hidden from evil [aka utter hatred of His people and laws] and therefore; not be written about. The Apostles took great care to guard her all the time. Nor did they want her being mentioned by haters.

Because as I stated previously, they wrote much in code [on the off chance it was intercepted]

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yes - get that...

And Rev 21, the woman referred to is the New Jerusalem.

It seems in this end time scenario after judgements, Mary would be venerated, yet there is no mention of such. However there is no mention of Moses, David, Elijah, John the Baptist either...

There would surely be no reason to keep her identity hidden at this point ?

The whole giving birth... and evil waiting [and then crucifying Him]
Is not a country.

It's evident

 

[WarriorAngel]

I know the Apostles were given strict orders for 40 days and nights before He ascended.

Those truths remain intact, and truth is not only in the teachings throughout the history that NO protestant church will ever ever have...

BUT also in keeping Our Lady out of the martyrdom and persecutions.
AND it would seem you are lost on those 40 days of teaching because you argue the Traditions that have been kept in the first, and true Church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I know the Apostles were given strict orders for 40 days and nights before He ascended.

Those truths remain intact, and truth is not only in the teachings throughout the history that NO protestant church will ever ever have...

BUT also in keeping Our Lady out of the martyrdom and persecutions.
AND it would seem you are lost on those 40 days of teaching because you argue the Traditions that have been kept in the first, and true Church.

I am not arguing a position. I am asking questions.

 

[Chesster]

Can someone explain why in the extensive writings of Paul there is no mention of Mary mother of Jesus if she indeed has the status some claim ?

IMHO the infant Church had it's hands full preaching Christ and dealing with all the Christological heresies that occurred. Adding Marian doctrines at that time would have been overwhelming.

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now."

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am not arguing a position. I am asking questions.

It seemed rather to state that if the harlot is a secular country, so too the woman could be who went to the place prepared by God.
[Heaven]

So we do understand the difference.
Also, I reiterate, code was used often.

I apologize if I felt you were making our Lady seem similar to the prose of the harlot.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It seemed rather to state that if the harlot is a secular country, so too the woman could be who went to the place prepared by God.
[Heaven]

So we do understand the difference.
Also, I reiterate, code was used often.

I apologize if I felt you were making our Lady seem similar to the prose of the harlot.

Wow... certainly not my intent.

I think some believe the reference is to Israel as a people and the believing Jews scattered on the earth.

 

[tz620q]

For the record I have always seen it as a reference to Israel with 12 tribes and the Son is Jesus. verse 13 refers to the authority given to the church in which Satan was seen falling like lightning and following persecution of the early church. 15 refers to the persecution of the Jews and then Christians globally. That is a familiar theme in our age.

I guess just balancing the record regarding what some scholars believe.

I think John often uses people as symbols of groups. As far as the woman in Revelations 12, we can see the hopes of the 12 Hebrew tribes as being incarnated through one Jewish woman into a man. As is often the case, the verse has a literal meaning (Mary), an allegorical meaning (12 tribes), and an anagogical meaning (Messianic and ultimately Christian salvation through Christ).

 

[tz620q]

Can someone explain why in the extensive writings of Paul there is no mention of Mary mother of Jesus if she indeed has the status some claim ?

To me, i think it was a matter of present need and present knowledge with the present being the lifespan of Mary. The present need at that time was to evangelize, baptize, and teach of the Risen Lord and what he had taught them. It was a matter of survival in a world of competing religions to explain why Christianity was true and Christ was a savior for all, not just the Jews. This required rethinking many Jewish expectations and teachings in the light of the new Way. That task consumed them. At the same time, Mary's life and the virgin birth were not debated because they had heard from eyewitnesses about it. The knowledge of who she was was current and there was no contention for what her life meant. It was only later as Christianity grew and prospered that people could take a breath and revisit it to flesh out the incarnation as a singular event and how God had accomplished it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

To me, i think it was a matter of present need and present knowledge with the present being the lifespan of Mary. The present need at that time was to evangelize, baptize, and teach of the Risen Lord and what he had taught them. It was a matter of survival in a world of competing religions to explain why Christianity was true and Christ was a savior for all, not just the Jews. This required rethinking many Jewish expectations and teachings in the light of the new Way. That task consumed them. At the same time, Mary's life and the virgin birth were not debated because they had heard from eyewitnesses about it. The knowledge of who she was was current and there was no contention for what her life meant. It was only later as Christianity grew and prospered that people could take a breath and revisit it to flesh out the incarnation as a singular event and how God had accomplished it.

Yes - makes sence - I see you are a test engineer - I was a final component inspector for Rocketlab. Maybe our brains work similar?

 

[tz620q]

Yes - makes sence - I see you are a test engineer - I was a final component inspector for Rocketlab. Maybe our brains work similar?

No detail too small, right?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Song of Solomon 2:15

It is the little foxes that spoil the vines.

 

[Jan001]

Rev 17: 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Is this also a reference to Mary ?

I think the woman, the great city, is Jerusalem. Her religious leaders are the harlot of Jerusalem. (I came to this idea about the religious leaders just a few minutes ago, so that is why I edited this post. )

 

[Jan001]

AND this is exactly why 'Babylon' was CODE for Rome.
They knew the chances of interception were real.

I think Babylon is the code word for Jerusalem and its religious leaders. It was the unbelieving Jewish leaders who killed Jesus Christ and the early Christians. God destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD because of the many sins committed there. Most of the Book of Revelation is about the unbelieving Jewish leadership, their rejection of their Messiah, Jesus Christ, and their subsequent destruction for their many sins.

Revelation 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion.”

Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5 and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.”

Revelation 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful bird;

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come.”

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

It seems to me that the harlot is the Jewish religious leaders who rejected and killed their prophets and their Messiah, Jesus Christ, and Babylon is Jerusalem. 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

Revelation 18:16 “Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

This seems to be a reference to the materials used to make the Jewish priestly garments, the leadership garments worn by prominent Jews such as the scribes and Pharisees, and the furnishings in the temple.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think the woman, the great city, is Jerusalem. Her religious leaders are the harlot of Jerusalem. (I came to this idea about the religious leaders just a few minutes ago, so that is why I edited this post. )

Personally I think it is a reference to the New Jerusalem.

However I am not an end-times buff.

However I don't see it as a reference to Mary.

 

[Jan001]

Personally I think it is a reference to the New Jerusalem.

However I am not an end-times buff.

However I don't see it as a reference to Mary.

The "great city" is not a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the ark of the New Covenant. She nourished Jesus, her savior and our savior, in her womb from his conception until his birth. The ark of the first covenant was holy to God. The ark of the New Covenant was holy to God's son.

The Book of Revelation is not so much about the end times. It is mostly about the soon-to-come end of Jerusalem in the first century.

I think that the Revelation 12:16 reference to a specific 1260 days concerns the protection of God's faithful people, his church, during the 1260-day siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

Jesus told his followers to flee Jerusalem when they saw the armies building encampments outside Jerusalem. Luke 21:19-22
The Christians obeyed Jesus' command, and so no Christian lives were lost in Jerusalem during the Roman siege.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Ok, so they are good with Henoch, Elijah and Moses all rising to Heaven but the Lord's own Mother is not good enough or has done enough?

Yes the concept of physical rising to Heaven fully is in scriptures, the Old Testament.
Plus the oral tradition of the Church since the beginning.

WHICH BTW the writings of the Old Testament are all oral tradition for up to 200 years until written.
Well, the tradition was written regarding our Lady.

It is that the POPE did not add it to canon.

SMH.

I try to get folks to understand the Bible - canon is our Tradition. They cannot borrow it to try to prove against the rest of tradition.

Moses was not taken to heaven. He was buried. Why God took Enoch and Elijah to heaven, we aren't told. Why not John the Baptist? Why not any of the Apostles? Why not Abraham? Only God knows but it wasn't a matter of worthiness. It is pure speculation that Mary was taken up into heaven. John, whom Jesus left Mary in the care of, lived the longest of the apostles. It is believed he wrote his epistles between 85 and 100 AD along with Revelation. He makes no mention of Mary or her being taken up into heaven. That doesn't prove she wasn't but nothing proves she was. There were many speculations regarding Mary in the early church. That does not make it on par with Scripture. The authors of Scripture were moved by the Holy Spirit. They did not need oral tradition. I don't think Moses knew all the details of Genesis by oral tradition. He was moved by the Holy Spirit who brought those details to mind.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The "great city" is not a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the ark of the New Covenant. She nourished Jesus, her savior and our savior, in her womb from his conception until his birth. The ark of the first covenant was holy to God. The ark of the New Covenant was holy to God's son.

The Book of Revelation is not so much about the end times. It is mostly about the soon-to-come end of Jerusalem in the first century.

I think that the Revelation 12:16 reference to a specific 1260 days concerns the protection of God's faithful people, his church, during the 1260-day siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

Jesus told his followers to flee Jerusalem when they saw the armies building encampments outside Jerusalem. Luke 21:19-22
The Christians obeyed Jesus' command, and so no Christian lives were lost in Jerusalem during the Roman siege.

I think Prophesy can have several fulfilments as circumstances repeat.