I think I'm now officially "post-Charismatic"

[Biblicist]

As with many others, when you have added a few years under your belt you begin to see how terminology can quickly change meaning over the years as with the terms Pentecostal and Charismatic.

When someone says that they are a Pentecostal this should mean that they attend a congregation that has always embraced the Full Gospel such as with the AoG etc.

When someone uses the term classic-Pentecostal this denotes (or should) denote that they believe in the second blessing in that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is received subsequent to our initially being sealed in the Spirit and it must be evidenced by speaking in tongues. Classic Pentecostals reject the notion that one must first speak in tongues to be saved.

When someone says that they are Charismatic this should mean that they attend a Charismatic congregation; these congregations were ones that belong to the more historical denominations that were established way before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and that their congregation has since adopted the Full Gospel. Of course someone can also rightfully claim to be a Charismatic if they are even the only member of their congregation who has embraced the Fullness of the Spirit and it should denote that they also speak in tongues.

Charismatics were once called neo-Pentecostals by the more conservative elements but this term was rarely used by Charismatics to refer to themselves. In fact the term Charismatic was usually spelt in lower case as in charismatic to denote it being a subset of the Pentecostal movement or even that it was a subset of their own denomination but this is rarely adhered to today. I tend to use the term with capitalisation to remove any sense of say a charismatic personality which is a term that is commonly bandied around by the populous media.

With the onset of John Wimber with his so called Third-Wave theology, a new term has arisen as with the neo-Charismatic which denotes a shift of emphasis in that tongues is not a pre-requisite for being Baptised in the Spirit. Some also incorrectly see the term neo-Pentecostal as being the same as neo-Charismatic but this is something that is more commonly encountered with those who had not experienced the Charismatic Renewal of the 60’s and 70’s.

.....

So when someone says that they are now ‘post-charismatic’ it can mean a number of things but it has the connotation that they have rejected the Full Gospel which of course is not the intent of the OP.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

So, it turns out that my parents had this discussion with the pastor. He is somewhere in the middle... He said he can see that Scripture teaches both predestination and free will... so he says he doesn't know how it all works together, but it does.

He also said, though, that at least one of the deacons is Calvinist.

So it sounds like there's room to differ in this congregation.

It keeps getting better and better....

I've never thought there was a conflict between free will and predestination, He knew us before the foundation of the world. He knew we would choose to follow Him before we did. Then I came across this verse and it seemed confirmed.

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

OSAS. Why would He bother to predestinate us, choose us, make us elect, knowing we would ultimately turn away from Him and die in our sin? Why would He bother? And the question of accountability of those who are aborted or die before they could understand the gospel, wouldn't He have also known them and what their choice would have been from eternity past?

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

And yesterday at the picnic he and his wife made a point to get to know me and include me since I was there all by myself and didn't really know anyone. So did several other people - everyone was very welcoming and seemed genuinly happy to have me there.

And talking to people showed me that it's not just the pastor and his wife who are solidly grounded in the Word and walking by faith.

The worship service is a little tame compared to what I'm used to... but I'm finding that I really like it. They don't speak in tongues or sing in tongues, they don't prophecy, they rarely clap their hands, and I haven't seen any dance (I have spotted some finger and toe tapping and hand raising). But they also don't drown out the congregation with loud music or repeat the same song over and over again until everyone is senseless or make a big production out of their musical performances. So that's also refreshing.

I suppose this makes me officially "post-charismatic" because I'd rather go without the Gifts of the Spirit in corporate worship than see them continually misused, abused and faked.

I'm "post-Baptist", or to be more accurate, pretty much "post-church". When I do attend, it's at a church called "Faith Evangelical Free Church", which is non-denominational.

I grew up in the local First Baptist church and thank God for my time there, they were solid as a rock. Like all of the churches I've attended, the biggest problem they had was limiting God, actually themselves.

I also thank God for the experience I had being unchurched because it caused me to realize that what limited my relationship to God was me, there were no artificial barriers put on me, the status quo, it was up to me.

I watched a younger sister die of ALS (Lou Gehrigs Disease) 14 years after she was diagnosed. During the time she could still communicate she said many times that if it were her choice, she would have chosen to have the disease rather than to have been healthy due to the relationship with God it compelled her to have, rather than to have been healthy and missed out. She left 3 children, a Godly husband, and a Godly marriage behind, so hers were no small statements. No one ever saw her falter, and she died strong, a tremendous inspiration to all that knew her.

Her "secret" was simple, she practiced Deuteronomy 4:29, which is my life verse. We often, churches included, settle for a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof, and miss out. "Finding God" is finding Power, Reward (Hebrews 11:6), which is the result of seeking diligently.

I'm attracted to Charismatics because they tend to recognize and invite Holy Spirit involvement into their lives. I'm always looking for a bigger dose of God.

I have a question:

In Romans 8:26 it says: "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Is this praying in tongues? I always thought it occured any time a believer prayed.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Wow, this is an old thread... but still very relevant!

I too am a post-charismatic. I still believe in the gifts, and do not think my AoG congregation abuses them, but am against the wide-spread abuse of them just the same.

I'm planning to move on to an Anglican congregation, not because I'm unhappy with my AoG community, but because I no longer agree with the most conservative parts of its doctrine, nor identify with the larger conservative evangelical movement it's part of. But I remain orthodox, in a mainline way, though not in the conservative evangelical way.

 

[cimbk]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

And yesterday at the picnic he and his wife made a point to get to know me and include me since I was there all by myself and didn't really know anyone. So did several other people - everyone was very welcoming and seemed genuinly happy to have me there.

And talking to people showed me that it's not just the pastor and his wife who are solidly grounded in the Word and walking by faith.

The worship service is a little tame compared to what I'm used to... but I'm finding that I really like it. They don't speak in tongues or sing in tongues, they don't prophecy, they rarely clap their hands, and I haven't seen any dance (I have spotted some finger and toe tapping and hand raising). But they also don't drown out the congregation with loud music or repeat the same song over and over again until everyone is senseless or make a big production out of their musical performances. So that's also refreshing.

I suppose this makes me officially "post-charismatic" because I'd rather go without the Gifts of the Spirit in corporate worship than see them continually misused, abused and faked.

Yes I would imagine if faced with the two, "the unaccepting of Supernatural gifts and there practice and the blatant abuse of such gifts, and complete biblical error in there practice.................what a dilema! .....

actually I'm in much the same boat, but just recently discovered the pastor of this really spiritually tame church, doesn't even believe there are any evil supernatural powers, such as the girl in Act 16:16 who had a spirit of divination, merely told peoples future by careful observation, such as how fake palm readers use "Mentalist" technics to read a persons life

Although when the demon was cast out of her it appears only the demon had the skills of careful observation, as she could nolonger tell the future

 

[John Zain]

Biblicist,

I'd like to note that salvation (HS coming IN) is often accompanied by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (HS coming UPON).
E.G. the case where a heathen hears the gospel, believes, and speaks in tongues.
.

 

[John Zain]

I've never thought there was a conflict between free will and predestination,
He knew us before the foundation of the world. He knew we would choose to follow Him before we did.
Then I came across this verse and it seemed confirmed.
1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
OSAS. Why would He bother to predestinate us, choose us, make us elect, knowing we would ultimately turn away from Him and die in our sin? Why would He bother? And the question of accountability of those who are aborted or die before they could understand the gospel, wouldn't He have also known them and what their choice would have been from eternity past?

It goes beyond this ... as God first "foreknew" His elect.
So, please don't miss post #41 here ... http://www.christianforums.com/t7629419/
.

 

[John Zain]

I have a question:
In Romans 8:26 it says: "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for
as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Is this praying in tongues? I always thought it occured any time a believer prayed.

The verse says:
If we don't know what, how, etc. to pray, trust the Holy Spirit and He will intercede for us with groanings, etc.
So, yes, I believe this is referring to allowing the Holy Spirit to pray for us,
with the words coming out in tongues groanings OR in English groanings.
.

 

[John Zain]

May I offer a suggestion?

I believe this is best way for everyone ... look for a smallish, honest, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled church,
which truly believes in the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11), and the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12).
I.E. a replica of the NT church where the Holy Spirit is more than welcome to take a leading role in the meetings!
Good luck finding one in your area.
.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

It goes beyond this ... as God first "foreknew" His elect.
So, please don't miss post #41 here ... http://www.christianforums.com/t7629419/
.

John,

I read post #41, it was awesome, but even though you said it better than I did, I didn't see any disagreement or difference in our views. So I have a couple of questions to clarify what you're saying:

You said "It goes beyond this...." Beyond what?

You said, "...as God first "foreknew" His elect" Didn't we agree on this? I had written, "He knew us before the foundation of the world. He knew we would choose to follow Him before we did."

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

The verse says:
If we don't know what, how, etc. to pray, trust the Holy Spirit and He will intercede for us with groanings, etc.
So, yes, I believe this is referring to allowing the Holy Spirit to pray for us,
with the words coming out in tongues groanings OR in English groanings.
.

Do you mean we can hear the Holy Spirit's groanings? Or in our spirit, or? They must be audible if you can differentiate between the unintelliglble and English, is that correct?

 

[John Zain]

I've never thought there was a conflict between free will and predestination,
He knew us before the foundation of the world.
He knew we would choose to follow Him before we did. Then I came across this verse and it seemed confirmed.
1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
OSAS. Why would He bother to predestinate us, choose us, make us elect, knowing we would ultimately turn away from Him and die in our sin? Why would He bother? And the question of accountability of those who are aborted or die before they could understand the gospel, wouldn't He have also known them and what their choice would have been from eternity past?

I am referring to your post #170 ...
Sorry, somehow your red passed me by.
I was referring to your blue, as in: before the blue, comes God's foreknowing.
Sorry for the confusion.
.

 

[John Zain]

Do you mean we can hear the Holy Spirit's groanings? Or in our spirit, or?
They must be audible if you can differentiate between the unintelliglble and English, is that correct?

I believe these Holy Spirit groanings can be internal or external.
If internal, I believe they would not be in tongues.
When one prophesies in the church, the Holy Spirit uses one's vocal chords for the external.
(If the prophecy is in tongues, then Paul says it should be interpreted.)

I do have some experience, but I'm certainly no great expert on these matters.

My wife used to prophecy at length (2-5 minutes) in English FOR our AOG church (of 500) in general.
On our half-hour drive to church, she would be told by the Lord what to say.
The pastor apparently did not have the gift of discernment (1 Cor 12),
so the validity of the messages had to be confirmed by the youth pastor.
She was somewhat upset that the prophecies were not later printed ... so those not present could read them.

Visiting a church of 300 (in Canada), we experienced 4 separate messages in tongues,
with each message being followed by its' interpretation.
Everything certainly appeared to be in order, i.e. it was the Holy Spirit (not any flesh involved).

Prior to this, we attended a small Pentecostal church (until the pastor retired)
where the pastor and his wife (between them) had all 9 of the spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12).
When Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit, I heard the angelic choir singing (loudly)
and this was accompanied by many instruments (loud also).
Of the 15 present, 8 of us heard this (in the Spirit) and it was not present on the tape recording.
I promise you, this is not Ripley's Believe It Or Not.

I believe that I received this baptism (anointing) ... so that I would later be given certain
spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12) necessary to be a successful evangelist in a communist county.
.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I have gone church shopping, I have been to about 15-20 churches. Various Catholic Charismatic, Sydney Christian life Centre. Hillsong, Christian City Churches, Bapstist, All Church meetings. G12 Sydney, Taize, The Servants of Jesus, mixed Catholic Protestant charismatic.

I found megachurches dangerous, for the uncontrolled ministry, jealousy.

I disliked the horrible worship music in so many, and the lack of spiritual gifts.

I want and look for gifts, and freedom, and mainly agape as in Romans 5:5. My aim is to receive love and act love and outpour love.

That with strength and freedom, is my aim, in order to enter the Kingdom in full and fulfill my commission.

I wish I could have attended TACF or Global Awakening.

I most happy with CCR with the late Fr Kevin English pp, and Frank Houston at Sydney CLC, and the older generation run healing service at C3 Oxford Falls and really benefited from Randy Clark and Will Hart at Dayspring, and now attend C3 Silverwater.

Why not try church shopping more broadly?

 

[lismore]

Why not try church shopping more broadly?

Good advice.

Do not stay too long in a bad situation.

 

[hopeinGod]

I think it comes down to the product that is being sold. Let's get real. A huge concern for all church leadership is just how they are going to pay the bills. Today, there are any number of ways being employed to produce the needed funds: "music concerts," revivals, the preaching of give-to-me-so-you-will-get false doctrines, and more. It seems that, especially within the charismatic churches, the leaders brainstorm in order to create newer, more creative make-it-up-as-you-go movements. Why? To keep them in the lifestyles to which they are devoted.

I've never stood as far apart from all the above stuff as I do now, and when I see that there are still people wrapped up in those same things, I wonder, "When will they ever get a clue?" Just how many believers have to be led into error and disillusionment before the whole charade comes tumbling down?

The sad part is that there are a few truths within these error-ridden assemblies that, had they been given the proper care and presentation, could truly strengthen and raise balanced, well-equipped ministers who aren't merely pew warmers who pay the bills, but men and women of God who have grown into their own gifts and ministries.

 

[John Zain]

I don't know if I'm repeating myself, but ...
In all humility, I'm sorry to have to say that ...

The Scriptural Way of going about this business is to ...
Follow the Holy Spirit as to where to worship, when to leave, etc.
Most incredibly easier said than done.

And to the above, I plead most guilty (that's the humility part).
.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

God is faithful...

 

[lismore]

Church in the end is the people, not the building or denomination.

 

[Joe Guth]

Good for you. You must be where God wants you... I cannot get away from these folks. So, So I learn to live with them and focus on essentials of the faith...