I am not ashamed of the gospel...

[Guojing]

Nor does it look like two different gospels to me.

What you're preaching friend, in this two gospels "gospel" is mystical gnosticism - a heresy from as early as the 2nd century.

You like Christ to profit you nothing?

 

[DerSchweik]

You like Christ to profit you nothing?

I don't think it's Christ's profit the two gospels "gospel" is preaching.

 

[Guojing]

I don't think it's Christ's profit the two gospels "gospel" is preaching.

Don't misquote Galatians 5:2

 

[Tim Ray]

But how were the sins of the faithful who died before Jesus died (in OT times, for instance) atoned for? (since we know that 1. without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Heb 9:22, and 2. it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins .. Hebrews 10:4?

Worm2, read your post, have this to offer.

Yes, without the shedding of blood, [The blood of Christ] there is no forgiveness of sin. The blood sacrifices of sheep, goats, and bulls in the earthly sanctuary were nothing but a teaching model for Israel, (as well as for us today), to understand how the plan of salvation would actually work. As God's trustee's of the gospel at that time, God wanted Israel to understand the plan of salvation so they could teach all nations.

Those animal sacrifices pointed forward to the death of the "Lamb of God". who's blood only atones for sin. They were to offer up these sacrifices in "Faith", with the understanding that in God's timing the "Lamb of God" would appear, and lay down His perfect life for all.

Today, we look back at the cross, and if we put our faith in what the Bible reveals about the life and death of Christ, we will be saved, if we are faithful till the end.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. There is no other means by which one can be saved.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[St_Worm2]

Today, we look back at the cross, and if we put our faith in what the Bible reveals about the life and death of Christ, we will be saved, ~if we are faithful till the end~. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. There is no other means by which one can be saved.

Hello Tim, it sounds like we are on the exact same page about everything, but I am still wondering about one thing, what you mean by, "if we are faithful till the end"? (because people mean different things by that statement, as I'm sure you know)

(Just FYI, I believe that ~everyone~ God causes to be born again and justifies ~will~ persevere in the faith .. albeit highly imperfectly at times/in some cases .. because God will make sure that we do .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25)​

If we are saved by grace (which means that our salvation is merited for us by the Lord's life and death .. as you said above) then, by definition, we cannot also be saved by what 'we' do, yes?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
.​

 

[Guojing]

Worm2, read your post, have this to offer.

Yes, without the shedding of blood, [The blood of Christ] there is no forgiveness of sin. The blood sacrifices of sheep, goats, and bulls in the earthly sanctuary were nothing but a teaching model for Israel, (as well as for us today), to understand how the plan of salvation would actually work. As God's trustee's of the gospel at that time, God wanted Israel to understand the plan of salvation so they could teach all nations.

Those animal sacrifices pointed forward to the death of the "Lamb of God". who's blood only atones for sin. They were to offer up these sacrifices in "Faith", with the understanding that in God's timing the "Lamb of God" would appear, and lay down His perfect life for all.

Today, we look back at the cross, and if we put our faith in what the Bible reveals about the life and death of Christ, we will be saved, if we are faithful till the end.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. There is no other means by which one can be saved.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes, salvation is always by grace thru faith.

The main difference is that to show faith before Paul taught us Romans 4:5, you had to keep the law and offer an animal sacrifice to cover your sins. Both of those are works.

 

[New Testament Christian]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.

Hello, I am a member of the church of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Hello, I am a member of the church of Christ.

Ahh, no wonder you are so fixated on Mark 16:16 for your salvation doctrine, as suspected.

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes, salvation is always by grace thru faith. The main difference is that to show faith before Paul taught us Romans 4:5, you had to keep the law and offer an animal sacrifice to cover your sins. Both of those are works.

Hello Guojing, animal sacrifices were offered to temporarily cover the sins of those who did ~NOT~ keep the Law, yes?

Also, "works" (along with all of the other things that accompany our salvation) is one of the principle ways that we "show" (or demonstrate) that our claim of having come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is true, yes?

As St. James pointed out to us (in what I believe was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner),

James 2
18 Someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
​

God bless you!

--David

Hebrews 9
22 According to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews 10
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
.​

 

[Guojing]

Hello Guojing, animal sacrifices were offered to temporarily cover the sins of those who did ~NOT~ keep the Law, yes?

Also, "works" (along with all of the other things that accompany our salvation) is one of the principle ways that we "show" (or demonstrate) that our claim of having come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is true, yes?

As St. James pointed out to us (in what I believe was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner),

James 2
18 Someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
​

God bless you!

--David

Hebrews 9
22 According to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews 10
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
.​

If more people bother to read James 1:1, they will be clearer whom James was writing to.

And if they cross reference with Acts 21:18-25, and be aware that the letter of James was written years before that, they will understand better than James distinguished between the gentile believers, which refers to us, and the nation of Israel.

 

[New Testament Christian]

James 4:6 says The Jews are receiving Gods grace.

Dispensationalism says there are two gospels. One gospel for the Jews. And another gospel for the gentiles.

These dispensationalist claim the gospel for the Jews requires works.

And the gospel of the gentiles only requires Gods grace and no works on the gentiles part.

My question is why would God make it easier for a gentile to do nothing and be saved yet God makes the jew work for his salvation?

This is unfair for God to make it easy for gentiles and difficult for Jews.

This clearly violates the new testament teaching by Paul in, Romans 2:11

Therefore the conclusion that James is for Jews only is causing division among men. A division that Jesus Christ ended on the cross,
Epheasians 2:14-16
Galatians 3:28

 

[Guojing]

My question is why would God make it easier for a gentile to do nothing and be saved yet God makes the jew work for his salvation?

This is unfair for God to make it easy for gentiles and difficult for Jews.

After the fall of Israel, everyone Jew and Gentile are now considered uncircumcised gentiles, all of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel of grace (Galatians 3:28)

The purpose is to make the nation of Israel, those who reject the gospel of the kingdom by refusing to acknowledge Jesus as the promise Messiah, jealous (Romans 11:11)

So your conclusion is false.

 

[New Testament Christian]

After the fall of Israel, everyone Jew and Gentile are now considered uncircumcised gentiles, all of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel of grace (Galatians 3:28)

The purpose is to make the nation of Israel, those who reject the gospel of the kingdom by refusing to acknowledge Jesus as the promise Messiah, jealous (Romans 11:11)

So your conclusion is false.

And your doctrine is contradictory,

Many Jews already obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:16.

These Jews were saved born again Christians!

Now Guojing posted in post 52#

After the fall of Israel, everyone Jew and Gentile are now considered uncircumcised gentiles, all of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel of grace (Galatians 3:28)

"All of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel"

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:1-2

Jesus died in 28 or 29 A.D.

Jesus spoke to Paul according to scholars on the road to Damascus between 33-36 A.D.

7 years passed after Jesus' death when He spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Paul was converted to become a Christian 3 days after Jesus spoke to him on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:9 ; 17-18.

Paul recounts his conversion in Acts 22:6-21 and Acts 26:12-18.

Paul begins preaching immediately after his conversion in Acts 9:20, Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

Paul is already preaching the gospel to the jews in 36 A.D.

Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 A.D.

Paul dies in 67 or 68 A.D. after his fifth missionary journey many believe.

Paul is dead 2 or 3 years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Paul preached nearly to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now according to Guojing's two gospels doctrine all Jews must obey Paul's gospel of grace after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Heres the big problem with Guojing's doctrine,

Many Jews have already been saved up until Paul's death.
According to Guojing they were saved by Peter's gospel of the kingdom, Acts 2:38.

Only 3 years have passed from Paul's death to when 70A.D. fall of Jerusalem occurs.

Now all these Jews that are still living have been saved by the "gospel of the kingdom"-Peters gospel.

According to Guojing's doctrine the saved jews must now be saved by Paul's gospel of grace!

So in order for these still living converted saved Jewish Christians to be saved after 70A.D they must now be saved by Paul's gospel of grace!

They therefore must be saved again by another gospel!

Guojing said ALL JEWS AND ALL GENTILES, his proof text was Galatians 3:28,

After the fall of Israel, everyone Jew and Gentile are now considered uncircumcised gentiles, all of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel of grace (Galatians 3:28)

Jews saved already by Peter's gospel,

Must now be saved again by Paul's gospel.

Does anyone believe once you have been saved by obeying Jesus' gospel, Mark 16:15-16 you must obey the gospel twice to be saved while already in a saved condition?

God help us if Guojing's doctrine is how we are to interpret the Bible!

 

[New Testament Christian]

The purpose is to make the nation of Israel, those who reject the gospel of the kingdom by refusing to acknowledge Jesus as the promise Messiah, jealous (Romans 11:11)

Romans 11:11 is not saying that All Jews were literally separated from God.

Only those who reject the gospel of Jesus have fallen.

Guojing, When do you believe Isreal fell? What time in the history of Paul's ministry did Jews become "uncircumcised gentiles"?

The Jews were literally destroyed in A.D.70

 

[Guojing]

Romans 11:11 is not saying that All Jews were literally separated from God.

Only those who reject the gospel of Jesus have fallen.

Guojing, When do you believe Isreal fell? What time in the history of Paul's ministry did Jews become "uncircumcised gentiles"?

The Jews were literally destroyed in A.D.70

When Stephen, under the Holy Spirit, declared to the leaders of Israel God's judgement on the nation

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

That was just before Saul was saved to reach us.

 

[New Testament Christian]

When Stephen, under the Holy Spirit, declared to the leaders of Israel God's judgement on the nation

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

That was just before Saul was saved to reach us.

The Jews were literally destroyed in A.D. 70

Now your sect claims the fall of Isreal occurred when Stephen preached to the jews right before Paul was converted.

This causes the same paradox as the situation in A.D. 70. Already saved jews(saved by Peter's gospel) must be saved again by Paul's "gospel of grace". Because as you said,

After the fall of Israel, everyone Jew and Gentile are now considered uncircumcised gentiles, all of them are to be saved under Paul's gospel of grace (Galatians 3:28)

Guojing ,your churches interpretation of the gospel has caused jews who have already obeyed the gospel, therefore saved.

Must now obey a different gospel to be saved, while their current state is in an already saved condition.

Saved jews according to Guojings church doctrine must obey the second gospel a second time! Wow,

That is a doctrine that contradicts the salvation of all those jews who have been given salvation through their faith and obedience to "Peter's gospel".

Faithfull jews who have believed in Jesus Christ as their Saviour/Messiah and obeyed Jesus' gospel, Acts 2:38 ; Mark 16:15-16.

According to Guojings church doctrine, these Christian Jews must now be saved again by another gospel!

God help us if Guojing's New Creation Church teaches the truth. If so the scriptures contradict themselves.

 

[Guojing]

The Jews were literally destroyed in A.D. 70

Now your sect claims the fall of Isreal occurred when Stephen preached to the jews right before Paul was converted.

This causes the same paradox as the situation in A.D. 70. Already saved jews(saved by Peter's gospel) must be saved again by Paul's "gospel of grace". Because as you said,


Guojing ,your churches interpretation of the gospel has caused jews who have already obeyed the gospel, therefore saved.

Must now obey a different gospel to be saved, while their current state is in an already saved condition.

Saved jews according to Guojings church doctrine must obey the second gospel a second time! Wow,

That is a doctrine that contradicts the salvation of all those jews who have been given salvation through their faith and obedience to "Peter's gospel".

Faithfull jews who have believed in Jesus Christ as their Saviour/Messiah and obeyed Jesus' gospel, Acts 2:38 ; Mark 16:15-16.

According to Guojings church doctrine, these Christian Jews must now be saved again by another gospel!

God help us if Guojing's New Creation Church teaches the truth. If so the scriptures contradict themselves.

You asked me a question about when Israel fell, and I gave you an answer.

Whether or not you want to accept or not, that is up to you.

 

[coffee4u]

Luke 23:42f - And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Because the thief's request (his example of "saving faith" so many point to when they lift up the thief as an example of how to be saved), and Jesus' promise that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, was made BEFORE JESUS HAD DIED.

If the thief on the cross, if his faith is an example of how to be saved today - and his example is put forth ad-nauseum for that very purpose, then Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection (which had not yet happened) are unnecessary.

Except that isn't why people normally point to the thief on the cross. Not saying no one has done that, but normally that is not why he is being referred to.

"they lift up the thief as an example of how to be saved"

Most times the thief is being pointed to not as an example of how to be saved but as an example that water baptism isn't a requirement to be saved.
That the person who came to Christ is not in peril up until their baptism and that it is not the water baptism itself that somehow 'makes them fully saved'. The thief is pointed to to show that water baptism isn't going to save you, but rather coming to Christ does and that water baptism is something you do once you are saved.

 

[New Testament Christian]

You asked me a question about when Israel fell, and I gave you an answer.

Whether or not you want to accept or not, that is up to you.

All saved jewish christians that obeyed Peter's gospel ie "the gospel of the kingdom" must now obey Paul's gospel "the gospel of grace".

Since Guojing's churches doctrine teaches all jews that were saved by "the gospel of the kingdom" must now be saved again by "the gospel of grace", this must also include the apostle Paul!

Paul was saved by the "gospel of the kingdom" , Acts 22:16.

Therefore Paul must be saved again by his own gospel!!!

Apparently the Lord Jesus' "gospel of the kingdom" , Mark 16:15-16, does not have the power unto salvation? Romans 1:16.

 

[Guojing]

All saved jewish christians that obeyed Peter's gospel ie "the gospel of the kingdom" must now obey Paul's gospel "the gospel of grace".

Since Guojing's churches doctrine teaches all jews that were saved by "the gospel of the kingdom" must now be saved again by "the gospel of grace", this must also include the apostle Paul!

Paul was saved by the "gospel of the kingdom" , Acts 22:16.

Therefore Paul must be saved again by his own gospel!!!

Apparently the Lord Jesus' "gospel of the kingdom" , Mark 16:15-16, does not have the power unto salvation? Romans 1:16.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, Israel will only receive salvation when Jesus returns for them in his 2nd coming, to usher them into the promised kingdom.

Scripture verses include Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:8-12, and 1 Peter 1:9