How do you reconcile an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God?

[Zunalter]

The bible doesn't make any sense when it is taken literally. It does not relate to the reality of this world. You can't give an unknown higher entity traits as a human being. That is ridiculous.

Supporting an unsubstantiated claim with another, followed by your opinion, doesn't prove your point. If you feel the need to make these claims, at least spend a minute or two drudging up some kind of explanation.

Exactly, the question cannot be answered logically in relation to this world. That was my point. I was just trying to show the "fundies" that their stance does not make any sense.

Faulty premise: you are assuming that your framework is both logical and consistent with reality.

To be correct, I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

I appreciate the clarification.

It takes factual evidence to conclude that something is true. A single ancient book cannot be taken as factual evidence just because it states so. This is why ebia's stance would be the correct one. Although, it would obviously still take faith to believe in God.

Ebia, with all due respect, is historically in the minority. You are however correct, anyone could have written any book thousands of years ago and claimed that it was the truth without it being so. However, you dismiss it on principle both because it is old and says God is real.

You would be the richest man in the world with all of the Agnostics/Atheists (rational people) there are...

Or how often you force people to read it / hear it by repeating it so incessantly.

Well, then, Mr. Rational, how do you explain the very existence of rationality within an atheistic framework?

 

[Zunalter]

If you find that a problem, you have a problem - one that has nothing to do with whether given bits of the text are literal or not. One is always faced with the problem of interpretation - any communcation involves the active particpation of both speaker and listener. Saying "it's literal" doesn't get you out of that bind because (a) that is applying an interpretation to the text (literal is not the default mode of texts) and (b) there is always considerable further interpretation to do.

That's not to say that all truth is relative, or that any interpretation is as good as any other, but the cry that there has to be a single, unambiguous, answer determinable with easy certainty is wishful thinking. You don't get - can't get - that with any text beyond the trivial.

It's an approach that ignores what the text is, and instead says "I want X, and so I'm going to insist that the text is X, even though X is impossible". Instead of telling God what the bible should be (which usually also includes cutting and pasting it around to try and turn it into that) one is much better of dealing with what it is - and then finding so much the richer for that.

I understand what you are saying, though I am not quite sure what interpretive sins I have committed. All that started this whole "literalist" fiasco is that I claimed that the Bible portrays Adam and Eve as historical personages.

But, as I am not 100% on your central interpretive motif, I don't want to argue with you on it as I could be arguing from ignorance. But, to clear any confusion on your end, I follow the Historical-grammatical method.

 

[ebia]

I understand what you are saying, though I am not quite sure what interpretive sins I have committed. All that started this whole "literalist" fiasco is that I claimed that the Bible portrays Adam and Eve as historical personages.

Um, no it does't. It portrays them as people within a narrative. Whether that narrative is intended to be historical in any 20th century connotation of that word is another matter.

But, as I am not 100% on your central interpretive motif, I don't want to argue with you on it as I could be arguing from ignorance. But, to clear any confusion on your end, I follow the Historical-grammatical method.

Likewise I don't want to get into an argument - I picked up the point only because my name was starting to get dragged into the conversation between you and Loopholes. My point is simply that whatever framework one is trying to use to interpret the bible that is a judgment call, and involves futher judgement calls. Trying to write another off with phrases like " but a Bible that can only be read subjectively and interpreted with whatever flavor you want to give it isn't really worth reading." won't do.

 

[loopholes]

Supporting an unsubstantiated claim with another, followed by your opinion, doesn't prove your point. If you feel the need to make these claims, at least spend a minute or two drudging up some kind of explanation.

So you think it is logical for something that is currently unknowable to be given traits that don't exist in this world?

Faulty premise: you are assuming that your framework is both logical and consistent with reality.

With the reality of this world, yes.

However, you dismiss it on principle both because it is old and says God is real.

You forgot to add lack of factual evidence and so called miracles.

Well, then, Mr. Rational, how do you explain the very existence of rationality within an atheistic framework?

Atheistic framework? You seem to be grouping up atheists as if they have the same ideology. This is incorrect. Atheists simply lack a belief in a deity. Besides that they can often be very different from one another.

 

[Emmy]

Dear loopholes. 2ndRateMind explained it very well, if God interfered every time in Man`s affairs, how could we learn? You may ask; Learn What? The great question is now: Why did Jesus come to Earth? Why did He have to die, that we might live? Answer: to reconcile us to God, to our Heavenly Father, who has made us in His image. Why? Because He wants to spend eternity with His adopted sons and daughters. What have we to learn? why much suffering to do so? The answer to that is simply, God did not make the suffering, on the contrary, wecan pray and God helps us to carry our load, and it will never be heavier, than we can bear. Jesus paid the price, which God`s Holy Law demands. God`s Law is eternal, God`s Law rewards ALL good deeds we do, as well as makes us pay the consequences for all NOT good deeds we do. Jesus told us WHAT to do, 1) love God with all our hearts, all souls and all minds. 2) Love others as we love ourselves, treat all others, as we would like to be treated. REPENT first, exchange our selfish and uncaring/unloving Characters, for selflessly loving, with NO strings attached. God made us good, yet we made the world what is is, an imperfect world, and God gave us free will to overcome the world. Jesus will help and guide us. I say this humbly and kindly, loopholes. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[TheD]

Loopholes,

How do you reconcile an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni benevolent god with the existence of suffering/evil on earth?

The same way you try to make friends with an unconditioned non-living item. We can blame it, because we made it, and claimed it 'created' us. For this particular situation (the existence of suffering/evil), I have something you may find helpful in the search for an acceptable answer.

WHY EVIL EXISTS AND WINS:

The main and most efficiency form of power in life, is intelligence and consciousness. One would at first assume that evil is insane, that badness runs contrary to sound reason, and thus good should triumph over evil, but in the world there is still much evil despite whatever ideal is assumed. In order to obtain and raise the IQ, a body needs a certain amount of resources. In the same way that a scientist would require instruments and an artist requires tools, intelligence also requires a certain type of riches in order to be produced. Therefor diabolical craftiness of the mind, aggression, domination, greed, lust, etc, are automatically associated with evil, for each plays a part in the process which in the end produces power over others. All things originate from spirit, and so the problem starts
in the spirit world before it becomes physical. In this plane it is possible not only to steal money or
energy from others, but it is also possible to tear out consciousness and bleed intelligence out. Thus
of a particular entity able to do this were to drain from thousands of undefended lesser lives or souls,
it would later become much stronger much faster than would an entity which did not steal vital consciousness under lust, for it is much easier to steal than it is to make it yourself in this sort of case.
It may take a whole life time to build up a mind, but then it could be taken away within a much shorter time. It was decided long ago that life should be mortal, and that everyone should die. At this point, or before it, the feast is banal. All sorts of higher dimensional predators and vampires leech and gut the seen world although they far prefer to exploit other more exploitable realms instead; but they are still here.
As lives keep on being born and then dying, after each cycle, the top extortioners harvest the inner product. The result is that at the top of the food chain is the highest diabolical intelligence and brutal forces, making sure that everyone below them gets eliminated. Although this is very inefficient and destructive, it leads to the existence of super predators and extreme evils at a higher level than normal, which common methods of success cannot handle combat with. There are other modes of life in nature, other than a feeding hierarchy, which have their own depth and uniqueness as well. The main threat to
the top of a feeding hierarchy would be a collective, of which existed as a unified intelligence without abusing itself. A collective harvests the strength from all of the lives under itself, too, but it usually does so in a far less harmful way, and is thus much more efficient. Due to causing harm being a daily practice
at the top of the food chains, those non-collective feeder types tend to develop allot more natural combat skills, and can defeat many more peaceful collectives through the sheer potency of their own wickedness outmaneuvering the peaceful and softer numbers. Despite this, there still exists many spheres of life which are collectives. One whole civilization seeks to unify with the other, one species sharing strengths and highbreding itself with another, under a social life with zero crime and super efficient cooperation. Meanwhile, the feeders hunt for young and exploitable spheres of life throughout the galaxy, raiding and draining with as much forceful lust as possible. These two methods of the accumulation of
life into a unified focal point, contradict each other as a means, though they each seek a similar end:
the combination of accumulated strengths for the sake of growth and survival. Each day I hope and
I wonder during study. I so hope that it is true that the collectivists would eventually win, but all
of nature is laced with evil on Earth, and it has been this way for a very long time. I choose the compassionate and constructive side of the collectivist races as my spiritual will for the future, but
I was born into a world that has hurtful extremists at the top of its food chain. Being born into the opposite of my true will, there was much suffering, but I believed that the collectivists had the superior ideology, so I had always thought there was a possibility that the collectivists could out preform the
evil forces, and thus myself be preserved. Each side is in constant struggle, and so I am still unsure
of the eventuality. This unseen war and many others go on invisibly, and determine the fate of all life. The food chain oriented predators seek to prevent cooperation, and make sure that life does not unify, thus in many subtle ways they tamper with the natural evolution of any race that they could get their claws into. Through this subtlety comes the agitation of stupidity, disorder and unloving madness,
so that races become self defeating and counter productive, so that the higher exploiters may all feed. I've had to bare much injury and the case of physical life's history proves to be grim, so the hope is faint and the ability small. These forces have made sure that everyone remains as weak, blind and stupid as possible so that they could all keep on being exploited defenselessly. So difficult is existence in this mess, that I believe everyone other than myself is doomed, and that I have only minuscule partial chances. There are many other complications as to why evil wins, as well, though it would be difficult to explain
all of those in English.

We can either attack this omni 'God' or befriend it, either way we don't exactly 'need' religion for that sort of circumstance. Evil is generally easier an act then good, but it's no one's fault really down here on the low realms. Besides, the simple fact that they repeat the evil instead of be productive, etc.

 

[TheD]

How do you know some god isn't interfering all of the time?

Wouldn't call it 'god', but there are many interferences that aren't recognized as 'good' by human morals.

Must suffering exist in order for one to learn?

No. There are alternatives in learning after experiencing something.

Is suffering necessary for one to grow and mature?

Grow yes, mature no.
Maturity after being disciplined is one thing, slaughtering a whole civilization won't 'help' their defects. (Such is the case between Babylon and other biblical sites in which Yahweh and often the revived Jesus has cursed or helplessly 'sinning').

What is the ultimate goal for this kind of learning?

Anti-Life, and various 'kinds' of pollution.

Why does the bible try to describe God in such a way?

The bible isn't even really from 'God', and if it is, it's rather horrible in it's own corrupt 'reality'.

Why is there so many Christians that don't agree (or understand) what you just stated?

They're just as confused as you, however they live differently and thus
arrive at a disagreement too their common conditioning. Really simple.

I just don't see how anyone can give such traits to a supreme being and find it logical and rational.

If i could strip you of your logical and rational basis and gave it unto this 'God', it would still be unchanging, cruel, and irrational due to it's previous history. They're only being hopeful, although
I would recommend some exercised caution when believing that sort of supremacy or dictatorship.

So what do you view as the purpose(s) of the biblical stories?

Horribly expressed honest intervention with the 'holy ghost', resulting in
misunderstood chapters and blocking out the actual 'words' amongst other things.

Stories with moral teachings?

Stories with broken, unexplained, morality.

Christianity, maybe just a rejection of Judaism?

Only when The Messiah was attempted to be a fulfilled prophecy, etc. It's not hard to write something when you're 5 years old, say that in 5 years your going to do the exact sane thing or witness it's 'effect'
and then label it 'prophetic' or some silly childish thing like that.

What would be "enough" proof in your mind?

The kind of 'proof' that doesn't require a mind, just an ever flexible 'real' encounter.
Many Naturalists desire this, it doesn't make them 'evil' though.

how do you explain the very existence of rationality within an atheistic framework?

Without rationality, we end up with the same bible enforcement that had happened centuries ago.
An irrational 'mind' accepting the bible is suicidal for it's own species.

So you think it is logical for something that is currently unknowable to be given traits that don't exist in this world?

It's traditional, in some areas.
It ('God') exists in the back world, but not amongst the physical, solid, and easy to die.

Atheistic framework? You seem to be grouping up atheists as if they have the same ideology.
This is incorrect.

I'm afraid this is going to be another cultural 'lie' spread throughout it's own system.
There is an ideology for each individual, but the incorrect portion falls on the assumption
that 'atheism' is a religion and other such false claims.

if God interfered every time in Man`s affairs, how could we learn?

If God stayed in Man's affairs, how come we're still having this repetitive discussion?

Why did Jesus come to Earth? Why did He have to die, that we might live?

Jesus came to Earth with the same genocidal intentions as The Father.
We still die, his sacrifice didn't 'save' anyone.

to our Heavenly Father, who has made us in His image.

If my own image was more disastrous too me, I would
A)attempt to improve it, B)make sure it doesn't multiply, C)re-organize the cellular structure,
mind condition/uncondition, etc. D)Apply C & A together, and start over.
What does the 'Heavenly Father' do?
A)global flood, B)destroy a collective language, C)die for us through his son instead of himself, D)send 'unbelievers' too Hell/Lake of fire. Yeah, I don't think so.

He wants to spend eternity with His adopted sons and daughters.

The messengers weren't enough company?

God did not make the suffering.

We would like to believe that, but the 'scriptures' even contradict that opinion.

We can pray and God helps us to carry our load, and it will never be heavier, than we can bear.

Prayer is a weak force, it's been tested and flawed in several very important life focusing scenarios.
Very sorry.

Jesus paid the price, which God`s Holy Law demands.

Did he learn not to make such a law and call it 'Holy' ever again?
Did Jesus learn that his 'price' didn't end all evil? instead evil has reproduced.
Also a demand is worse then trying to assist a broken limb, it adds to the pain
instead of making it less of a thing to be focused upon.

1) love God with all our hearts, all souls and all minds

Never was genetic from 'the beginning', so it's difficult to even process this 'love' for a mass murderer.

2) Love others as we love ourselves, treat all others, as we would like to be treated.

We don't need a religious or cult leader to teach us these kinds of things.
Upsetting how dependent people are on such figures.

REPENT first, exchange our selfish and uncaring/unloving Characters, for selflessly loving, with NO strings attached.

"I'm sorry you made me so pathetic Lord, I love you, please accept me into your pearly gates
and golden city. Let me be an example for others, as we struggle to coexist. I would like it if you assisted me through school, although I cannot even hear you're voice like all other believers in your name. Please forgive my sins, as I submit myself before you - my loving and awesome God. Amen."
Nothing happens. I still fail in school, I'm still misunderstood by 'Christians', and I can't avoid my carnal nature. Most 'selfish' individuals (Jesus counts!) happen to be more advanced then others throughout
life. I care, I love, and I'm still defeated at the end of almost every single day. There are strings in the parables, we aren't as 'free' as we like to think of ourselves.

God made us good, yet we made the world what is is, an imperfect world, and God gave us free will to overcome the world.

Sadly he didn't stick around long enough to explain himself and everything recorded throughout the bible, which all of a sudden leads us sadly to assume his non-existence.
/God creates Earth with +4 harmony.
/God creates -50 peace with Adam and Eve.
/Snake gains +10 to intellect.
/Eve loses 1 HP.
/Adam loses 1 HP.
/God curses x3 on each of his creations.
Oh yes, it's OUR fault. Always leave it on the children for something the parent can't even fathom itself.
Define 'free will'', please?

Jesus will help and guide us.

Whats taking so long? I think he lost his 'supernatural' power and
sided with the evil forces against The Father or something insane like that.

 

[XChristian]

TheDemiPrist,
This is off topic but where did you get Why Evil Exists and Wins from? Is that a Taoist belief?

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing then he is evil. That would be the only way to explain all the pointless suffering in the world. Unless of course he only sees us as animals. In which case is he really doing anything wrong by not interferring with our lives (in a good or bad way)? If the latter case is true the Bible is just a book of myths, legends and superstitions and nothing more. We will live, die and rot.

 

[TheD]

Where did you get Why Evil Exists and Wins from? Is that a Taoist belief?

It's not in Taoism.
I just presented it as to the recognition of a malevolent collective instead of a benevolent one, etc.
Some have made deities in attempting to understand the whole, but could only fathom individual parts.
I don't really have 'beliefs' or religions of any sort to follow, I do however admire the few optimistic parts that each one even in it's most fallible expressions (from 'holy' writings, too representatives of 'God').
It's difficult to explain, I would just like you to acknowledge that I don't hold a singular 'faith', and have strong bias in the mythology of fake 'science' and 'history' being propagated throughout any culture
or people.

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing then he is evil. That would be the only way to explain all the pointless suffering in the world. Unless of course he only sees us as animals. In which
case is he really doing anything wrong by not interfering with our lives (in a good or bad way)?

Not all 'powerful' or 'knowing' entities are inherently 'evil' though, there are those that abuse the power stored into them and use their knowledge for an actual evil even they could not predetermine or defend themselves from (in this instance, that would be before the all knowing capability has been shared).

The God of the bible is obviously infected with evils, but He (she or it) is just a host for them.
Evil must be traced to the exact source, logical blame isn't even a solution even if we 'know'
that this God is being conditioned into further madness and life extinction that it would originally
give an alternative for (such as explaining itself, fighting to 'prove' it's existence, and doing other
such good deeds with Humanity and other sentience).

It doesn't explain pointless suffering, although it does apply a 'point' of misunderstanding and some
other small details that aren't really a necessity. If such a collective, or deity, sees us as animals -
it would be correct in it's observation.

'He' is neither doing anything good, or bad by not interfering. However, either by irresponsible
parenting (parent-child complex) or simply fighting to avoid complete evil taking it over (making
the universe and it's inhabitants effected or affected after such a mutated 'holy', 'righteous', 'good'
figure of worship and prayer) it requires at most some other sentience to watch over us, others to
'test' us, and manipulations with the very mechanical process of the universal structure of coexisting
chaos and order. 'He' is doing more good in remaining inhuman (again, this doesn't make it automatically evil), then we are in attempting to justify ourselves by making 'lesser' species extinct, etc.

I hope had not offended you.

 

[XChristian]

There have been countless beliefs on countless things that have been proven to be false once mankind reached a certain level of reasoning and knowledge.

Right now anyone with an openmind and access to a library or the internet can sit down and start finding inconsistantcies in the Bible that believers cannot make go away no matter how much faith they have. It is only a matter of time (if civilization survives that long) before Mankind proves that the existance of the God of the Bible (whether all-Powerful and all-Knowing or not) is false. Unless aliens contact us first and apologize for all the misunderstandings caused by their visits through the years.

 

[TheD]

There have been countless beliefs on countless things that have been proven to be false once mankind reached a certain level of reasoning and knowledge.

Correct.
The advancement is still slow, lies and false claims are still being spread, and entire lives have been altered by the ever present evil. We can add reasoning too a 'belief' without arguing, and we can
possess 'knowledge' without destroying life in the process of accepting or rejecting certain amounts
of given information and understanding of structure (or the deconstruction of such).

I'm not denying the history of these beliefs, but I'm also not going to accept both 'sides' competing instead of working together. I don't mean it in a 'peace keeping' police force way, and not really an absolute assumption in claiming humans are the only sentience on this planet and we were never products or enforcers of war (or, to be a 'pacifist' entirely).

Right now anyone with an open mind and access to a library or the internet can sit down and start finding inconsistencies in the Bible that believers cannot make go away no matter how much faith they have.

Again, the issue isn't about 'us' being right and 'them' being wrong.
It's the origin of evil, how both humanity and 'God' are involved - directly, or indirectly.
There are inconsistencies throughout this whole 'reality', being obsessively concerned about
an unrefined 'holy' tome is humorous. Most 'believers' have avoided the Bible any more,
they're too busy attempting to convert with messages that are misinterpreted or completely
changed for the sake of admirable focus on a deity self-sacrifice.

It is only a matter of time (if civilization survives that long) before Mankind proves that the existence of the God of the Bible (whether all-Powerful and all-Knowing or not) is false.

On an existential note, it doesn't really matter because it's the 'God' of the bible and not the 'God'
of reality (which could be considered a source of warmth, or a cold-blooded product of other evil's).

So what if we've proved it false 100%+? I admit the whole thing needs a serious rewrite because of
it's murderous content and false 'justice' for all former problems we've experienced but I will not ever
harm the foundation of a believer if it means their ultimate death (the 'God' of the bible has become
their purpose in life, so without 'him' they will misunderstand alternatives or simply commit suicide physically, mentally, or spiritually - sadly).

If 'God' is all-knowing (if knowing = experiencing), and it can only 'know' by looking and not interacting.
It must be careful with it's intervention in the original flow where it had not actually 'created' but it 'knows' that some humans have claimed it to be 'the creator' so it learns more by following the examples set
before it. Half-knowing would be a more accurate claim in the perception of this 'God'.

If power is defined as energy, and this 'God' has been tampered with evil, it's all-powerful capabilities
will be against it's own will. The smallest change in it's 'perfection' (like deciding to take form of humanity, for humanity) would insert a universal 'imperfection'. Now we have two 'imperfect' individuals, either we continue to argue the mate doesn't exist or we wait patiently and fluctuate ourselves with both logic and
a certain amount of natural 'belief'. So, civilization won't survive that long in it's self-defeating modern stage. Evil isn't God's fault, though he is inevitably 'the creator' of it in small productive amounts that the laws of the universe will accept from an outside 'force' or 'mind'.
At the end of it all, or so it may feel, you should question how productive this disproof will have -
because people submit themselves too ideas or thought forms more so than each other these days.

Unless aliens contact us first and apologize for all the misunderstandings caused by their visits through the years.

We are the aliens. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't my original life, isn't my planet,
isn't my body, isn't my realm, and that 'God' needs allot of help. Equally as much, so
do his followers throughout many centuries of what could have been self repairs and a
strong focus on the continual interaction with this deity. It's rigid, but we have no reasoning
behind actions against ourselves and our claimed 'creator'. They shouldn't apologize for
something they don't know of, that's unnecessary.