Holiness Pentecostals: Why Does Everyone Hate Them?

[Brother Man]

QUOTE="Brother Man, post: 72686689, member: 409785"]First, I would like to address that the Word of God tells us that everyone (most especially the secular world) will know the Lord's disciples by the way we love one another (John 13:35). I take this in reference to a believer's genuine and noticeable love for both the sinner and fellow Christians.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="Brother Man, post: 72686689, member: 409785"]While they may not always vocalize their thoughts that other Christians are not as holy as they are, their expressions and attitudes towards them definitely give that impression.[/QUOTE
================================

(if this works) Try to simplify and compare these two aspects together/ contrasting or supporting a certain outlook:
1st your point (yes, true point of Scripture) that outsiders will know Ekklesia are Jesus' disciple BY THE LOVE THEY HAVE FOR ONE ANOTHER. (not a common , not a normal every day kind of love as often seen in unbelievers, and even often seen in church goers, no - not that kind of love) ...

Believers and UNbelievers can see when people live as Jesus' followers , and when they do as Jesus tells them.

This means conversely that Believers and UNbelievers can ALSO SEE when they don't.

Right so far ?

I am trying to follow what you are saying, so I will go with what I think you are aiming for. Yes, the Word says they will know us by the way we love one another. This, as you said, is a different kind of love than the world offers. The world loves, of course, but their love always comes with strings. If their back isn't scratched, the love generally halts. And that is when revenge enters the picture. Christians are to love sinners and other Christians unconditionally, just as Christ loves all of us. Our love has no strings, we love those against us, for us, and we expect nothing in return.

I am, however, a little confused as to what you mean by comparing the two aspects. Could you elaborate on that please?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am, however, a little confused as to what you mean by comparing the two aspects. Could you elaborate on that please?

Let's agree I left it 'incomplete' , not to be confusing, but to be sure we stay on the same page, with the same understanding.... a step at a time . Not to be mysterious at all, but not to get mixed up putting too much at once without understanding....

The 2nd aspect, is holiness.
I don't believe this is separate from Yahweh's kind of love (which actually is a choice of the will, not an emotion of feelings) .
1st aspect love. True love of Yahweh, obedient to Him.
2nd aspect "be holy as your Father Yahweh in heaven is holy" i.e. set apart, obedient serving Him in Truth, in Jesus.

Nothing hidden, nothing broken, nothing missing.....

So far okay now ?

 

[Brother Man]

Let's agree I left it 'incomplete' , not to be confusing, but to be sure we stay on the same page, with the same understanding.... a step at a time . Not to be mysterious at all, but not to get mixed up putting too much at once without understanding....

The 2nd aspect, is holiness.
I don't believe this is separate from Yahweh's kind of love (which actually is a choice of the will, not an emotion of feelings) .
1st aspect love. True love of Yahweh, obedient to Him.
2nd aspect "be holy as your Father Yahweh in heaven is holy" i.e. set apart, obedient serving Him in Truth, in Jesus.

Nothing hidden, nothing broken, nothing missing.....

So far okay now ?

I think I am following you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think I am following you.

Okay , thx, and good - I am really just thinking this out as we go thru it, to get to the point now that follows:

Since believers AND UNbelievers can see (Yahweh willing) the difference(s) in the assemblies who truly live and love as Yahweh says to, and the assemblies who only pretend to , who only have the "form of religion" but deny the power thereof (the power to save, even Jesus);
then also believers and UNbelievers can see (Yahweh willing) the difference in those who live right, and those who don't live right. (this is actually in the Scriptures somewhere)
i.e. True holiness (set apartness in Jesus), vs fake or no holiness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

One thing that sticks out to me about traditionally strict Holiness Pentecostals is that they say what they about holiness is not legalism. I agree with them wholeheartedly, holiness is not legalism, but most strict holiness Christians have a mindset of holiness that is dangerously legalistic.

(cutting to the chase, so to speak).....
This could be true , "dangerously legalistic" churches, or just legalistic... either way ....
meaning the way they are or seem to be...
1st - they shall be known (seen) by the love (God's Way) they have for one another....
2nd - whether they are seen correctly , appraised right, as holy or as not holy ....

They are not "known for the holiness they have" (few ever are, and many of those that are, are not holy at all) ....
but I believe those who are known for the love they have for one another, known as disciples as written,
disciples of Jesus, following Jesus,
not disciples of "Paul or of Apollos", or of "Denom1, Denom2, etc"
but disciples of JESUS !

(as written of some "they have been with Jesus" )

Those ones known for their true love (obedience to Yahweh),
ALSO
their lives are known, can be seen by believers and UNbelievers,
as holy (set apart, not like others of the world)....

(I think this came out okay trying to describe it - I am tired though and might have mis-spoke or forgotten some part ... or twisted some words around) Thus , soon , I will go to sleep (it's almost 3a.m.)

 

[Brother Man]

(cutting to the chase, so to speak).....
This could be true , "dangerously legalistic" churches, or just legalistic... either way ....
meaning the way they are or seem to be...
1st - they shall be known (seen) by the love (God's Way) they have for one another....
2nd - whether they are seen correctly , appraised right, as holy or as not holy ....

They are not "known for the holiness they have" (few ever are, and many of those that are, are not holy at all) ....
but I believe those who are known for the love they have for one another, known as disciples as written,
disciples of Jesus, following Jesus,
not disciples of "Paul or of Apollos", or of "Denom1, Denom2, etc"
but disciples of JESUS !

(as written of some "they have been with Jesus" )

Those ones known for their true love (obedience to Yahweh),
ALSO
their lives are known, can be seen by believers and UNbelievers,
as holy (set apart, not like others of the world)....

(I think this came out okay trying to describe it - I am tired though and might have mis-spoke or forgotten some part ... or twisted some words around) Thus , soon , I will go to sleep (it's almost 3a.m.)

I agree with you that denominational names will not save us. I earnestly believe that there are genuine Christians found within all Christian faiths. We are all called to be Disciples of Jesus, and as we all know, the Word only calls us to be Christ-like (or Christians).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree with you that denominational names will not save us.

That, and more in line with the first post I replied to (I think),
when you saw or thought you saw some legalistic holiness living or preaching or criticisms,
seeing , they said, other assemblies 'not as holy' ......
it may be just like today - other examples of lives 'not as holy'
BY OBSERVATION SEEN by BOTH believers and UNbelievers .... yes, it can be seen (Yahweh Willing / Allowing) AND is seen daily - holy loving lives are rare and far between. holy loving assemblies even more rare perhaps
(i.e. more than 2 or 3 gathered together, laying down their lives ("not thinking their own lives are worth trying to protect") for one another )

all verified throughtout Scripture; tried and tested and true.

"Seek, and keep seeking, and you will find" is Promise of Yahweh.

So, over the next weeks and months and years, seek and keep seeking, eagerly watching and praying frequently all the time for all those Yahweh sends you to, or sends to you...... a miracle !

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Let's see if this can be done. Since it's close to Resurrection Day (I don't call it Easter, and it was Passover anyways), I think this thread deserves to be be RAISED FROM THE DEAD! LoL.
But seriously, I just posted a similar topic and came across this while searching online, and the OP here is right on!

 

[jiminpa]

If you're not familiar with the term "holiness" you may be familiar with "legalistic" or "extremist". They are a small and shrinking group of Pentecostals that still preach the Word of God with power, authority, and fire to all whether people like it or not. They believe in HOLINESS - without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) They believe salvation is obtained freely, not by works, however true salvation will undoubtedly bring forth good works and obedience to the Lord, and that true repentance is a necessary part of genuinely accepting Jesus and making Him the Lord of your life. They believe God HATES sin, so much that He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it, so much that He sent His son to clean us of it, and so much that nothing unclean will enter into Heaven. They believe through prayer and fasting God will hear us and day by day sanctify us more and more, to the point where we are no longer voluntarily sinning (and that doesn't come forth from 10 or 15 minutes prayers, either.) No we are not perfect, however God has a commandment for all His people: Be Holy as I am Holy.

I find it sad and quite frankly disgusting that the majority of liberal Pentecostals these days despise Holiness Pentecostals so much. In case you didn't know, each and every original Pentecostal denomination (Church of God, Assemblies of God, etc) was at some point HOLINESS. Yes, one of those legalistic bunch of folk. Almost all major Pentecostal denominations are now liberal, and have forgotten about holiness. They are preaching a lukewarm message to lukewarm believers. They are people who go to church on Sunday, maybe another day during the week, and sin in days between as if it is no big deal.

I see many people write on these forums about how cold the church is. There's no more fire. Things are changing so much, what's going on. I have the answer - it is because SIN is running RAMPANT throughout the church and the people in the altars are doing NOTHING at all about it. Worldliness has entered and made itself quite comfortable WITHIN THE HOLY CHURCH OF THE LORD. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in DIRTY vessels. You want to know why the tounges are ceasing? You want to know why church attendance is down? You want to know why there's no more shouting, dancing, no more true manifestations of the Spirit except for a silly "revival" meeting once every 10 years? It is because the church has abandoned HOLINESS. Pastors have ABANDONED the true message of the Bible - yes Jesus is the only way to salvation, yes it is obtained freely, yes there are wonderful promises for His followers, but they are only talking about the God of love and have forgotten His other half . . . He is also a CONSUMING FIRE. He HATES sin. He sent Jesus, He sent the Holy Spirit so we could finally live according to His will without following the law. He does not want us sinning, and yes, when we as BELIEVERS sin it is a VERY big deal.

I would just like to take the opportunity to salute all the holiness pastors, evangelists, preachers, etc out there that have not coward down to the people. That have not covered up some parts of the Bible and emphasized others, that have not changed the message just to please the people.

I am making an urgent plea here . . . please, church, let us return to holiness. Let us stop making the BIBLE conform to the people, and let the PEOPLE CONFORM TO THE PERFECT, INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!

Since this thread has been resurrected, Any claim of an aspect of God that is not His love is opposed to the Bible and is false doctrine. Loveless "holiness" is paving bricks on the road to Hell, or even a holiness that diminishes love. A holiness that would have someone tell God, "no," is not holiness it's rebellion and the road to Hell. Maybe that sounds ridiculous, but that is the end game of most "holiness" teaching. God doesn't give His calling to satisfy man's sense of goodness. I have never been so justifiably fearful of God as when I rejected His calling in favor of "holiness." Yes, He is a consuming fire, His love burning the chaff from our hearts with every step that we walk with Him. He does that not us. If we seek a holiness we can make in ourselves and measure, it is not holiness, it's filth. And isn't the measurement the real point. That "holiness" is not looking for more God, it's looking for a pecking order. Let me help you with that, the higher you think you are in the pecking order the closer to Hell you really are.

I know a woman who is at least moderately popular in "nu metal" rock. She would step out of the music scene in a second if the Holy Spirit would let her. Every time she almost does He reminds her of someone whose life was saved and drawn to Him by her music, or a musician whose life she and her husband really want to speak life into. They toured with Breaking Benjamin to get the chance to minister to Ben. "Holiness" would have had them say "no" to God, because of the style of music, (not a Biblical standard), and the amount of time they would have spent among sinners. Hmmmm.

 

[9Rock9]

I don't know if I have seen hate towards Holiness Pentecostals in particular, but I know a lot of people dislike Pentecostalism in general.

 

[rturner76]

If you're not familiar with the term "holiness" you may be familiar with "legalistic" or "extremist". They are a small and shrinking group of Pentecostals that still preach the Word of God with power, authority, and fire to all whether people like it or not. They believe in HOLINESS - without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) They believe salvation is obtained freely, not by works, however true salvation will undoubtedly bring forth good works and obedience to the Lord, and that true repentance is a necessary part of genuinely accepting Jesus and making Him the Lord of your life. They believe God HATES sin, so much that He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it, so much that He sent His son to clean us of it, and so much that nothing unclean will enter into Heaven. They believe through prayer and fasting God will hear us and day by day sanctify us more and more, to the point where we are no longer voluntarily sinning (and that doesn't come forth from 10 or 15 minutes prayers, either.) No we are not perfect, however God has a commandment for all His people: Be Holy as I am Holy.

I find it sad and quite frankly disgusting that the majority of liberal Pentecostals these days despise Holiness Pentecostals so much. In case you didn't know, each and every original Pentecostal denomination (Church of God, Assemblies of God, etc) was at some point HOLINESS. Yes, one of those legalistic bunch of folk. Almost all major Pentecostal denominations are now liberal, and have forgotten about holiness. They are preaching a lukewarm message to lukewarm believers. They are people who go to church on Sunday, maybe another day during the week, and sin in days between as if it is no big deal.

I see many people write on these forums about how cold the church is. There's no more fire. Things are changing so much, what's going on. I have the answer - it is because SIN is running RAMPANT throughout the church and the people in the altars are doing NOTHING at all about it. Worldliness has entered and made itself quite comfortable WITHIN THE HOLY CHURCH OF THE LORD. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in DIRTY vessels. You want to know why the tounges are ceasing? You want to know why church attendance is down? You want to know why there's no more shouting, dancing, no more true manifestations of the Spirit except for a silly "revival" meeting once every 10 years? It is because the church has abandoned HOLINESS. Pastors have ABANDONED the true message of the Bible - yes Jesus is the only way to salvation, yes it is obtained freely, yes there are wonderful promises for His followers, but they are only talking about the God of love and have forgotten His other half . . . He is also a CONSUMING FIRE. He HATES sin. He sent Jesus, He sent the Holy Spirit so we could finally live according to His will without following the law. He does not want us sinning, and yes, when we as BELIEVERS sin it is a VERY big deal.

I would just like to take the opportunity to salute all the holiness pastors, evangelists, preachers, etc out there that have not coward down to the people. That have not covered up some parts of the Bible and emphasized others, that have not changed the message just to please the people.

I am making an urgent plea here . . . please, church, let us return to holiness. Let us stop making the BIBLE conform to the people, and let the PEOPLE CONFORM TO THE PERFECT, INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!

I think that why people end up going against Pentecostalism is that they preach pretty much from the book of Acts and don't always take into account the teaching of the rest of the Bible.

As for my personal opinion, Pentecostalism places more of their faith in outward expressions of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, flipping and flopping in the isles of the church, and passing out when the Reverand touches their forehead). I prefer a more intellectual approach that emphasizes more the proper teaching of theology. That is a personal thing for me as I have always declared my faith in the Lord but I have never felt like I was more in touch with my spirituality by jumping and screaming than as I have felt my connection with my spirituality by studying and learning while receiving instruction by the oldest church in the world. My personal belief is that the ancient church has more to offer in the way of understanding the scriptures and living in obedience than having physical spasms in the name of God. I think even when we are touched by the Holy Spirit, we are still in control of our minds. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize more on losing control of one's body and mind to edify rather than relying on the teaching we have received.

 

[Sabertooth]

I got baptized in a "holiness" church [UPC] and embrace it. If not as a requirement for Salvation, it is instruction for maximized well-being.
I struggle with where some people have drawn the line, however,
like the length of

• my hair,
• my beard,
• my sleeves, etc.

or whether I pick my nose (in private*).

*It is not a Biblically-defined sin in public, either, but it is impolite.

 

[rocknanchor]

I think that why people end up going against Pentecostalism is that they preach pretty much from the book of Acts and don't always take into account the teaching of the rest of the Bible.

As for my personal opinion, Pentecostalism places more of their faith in outward expressions of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, flipping and flopping in the isles of the church, and passing out when the Reverand touches their forehead). I prefer a more intellectual approach that emphasizes more the proper teaching of theology. That is a personal thing for me as I have always declared my faith in the Lord but I have never felt like I was more in touch with my spirituality by jumping and screaming than as I have felt my connection with my spirituality by studying and learning while receiving instruction by the oldest church in the world. My personal belief is that the ancient church has more to offer in the way of understanding the scriptures and living in obedience than having physical spasms in the name of God. I think even when we are touched by the Holy Spirit, we are still in control of our minds. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize more on losing control of one's body and mind to edify rather than relying on the teaching we have received.

And what was the Apostle's remark to the outcome of Acts' "rushing mighty wind"? It was never uttered to resist His imparting of gifts. But to receive them WITH the Holy Spirit fruit of "self control" while conducting ourselves "decently and in order". We are to "test the spirits to see if they are of God", then start checking them off. If they, ,

Resist the NT teachings on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? CHECK
Resist the NT framework of gifts? CHECK
Resist the NT occurrence of impartation OR visitation? CHECK
Resist the NT instructions on fidelity towards decency, self control etc. (see above)? CHECK

Any other NT standard may also be included. And some of us, like you have been around the block. As though some massive fear has moved in that the body may over-correct, OR, the fear is in not drawing away disciples. "God" it is said who "adds to the Church daily, such as should be saved". If any drift from these few I mentioned has occurred, I don't blame God for not resuming the added number.