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BillMcEnaney

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Greetings from Upstate New York. I'm a computer programmer with a philosophy degree who loves to study St. Thomas Aquinas's theology, Plato's dialogues, and Aristotle's thought. Opera is my favorite kind of entertainment. So I hope may post an aria or two if that would interest anyone.

Maybe someone here will explain the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine about soul sleep because it confused when an Adventist told me about it. I'm here to learn from you.

Oh, did I mention that I'm an American monarchist?

I'm eager to "talk" with you.
 
eleos1954
eleos1954
Hello and welcome! Go to the Traditional Adventist forum ,,,, there you can ask anything you want about their teachings.
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BillMcEnaney

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Welcome to the forums, Bill. Hope you enjoy and get something out of your time here.

I am not a Seventh-Day Adventist but I do believe in soul sleep. My views on biblical anthropology are fairly similar to theirs.
Thank you, DS, I'm happy to meet you. Since I'd hate to hijack any topic, maybe you'll start a new one to explain soul
sleep to me. I may know some philosophical problems with it if I understand it. But we can talk about them after you and/or others teach me.
 
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Christoph Maria

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WELCOME to Christian Forums,
Bill!



“And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5
______________________________

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Isaiah 41:10


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And Jesus looking upon them saith, With
men
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The Lord is not slow to keep his promise.
He is not slow in the way some people understand it.
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Maria Billingsley

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Greetings from Upstate New York. I'm a computer programmer with a philosophy degree who loves to study St. Thomas Aquinas's theology, Plato's dialogues, and Aristotle's thought. Opera is my favorite kind of entertainment. So I hope may post an aria or two if that would interest anyone.

Maybe someone here will explain the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine about soul sleep because it confused when an Adventist told me about it. I'm here to learn from you.

Oh, did I mention that I'm an American monarchist?

I'm eager to "talk" with you.
Welcome to CF. My King is Jesus Christ of Nazareth! Thought I would share that in light of your position. Blessings.
 
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Lost Witness

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Greetings from Upstate New York. I'm a computer programmer with a philosophy degree who loves to study St. Thomas Aquinas's theology, Plato's dialogues, and Aristotle's thought. Opera is my favorite kind of entertainment. So I hope may post an aria or two if that would interest anyone.

Maybe someone here will explain the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine about soul sleep because it confused when an Adventist told me about it. I'm here to learn from you.

Oh, did I mention that I'm an American monarchist?

I'm eager to "talk" with you.
Welcome to CF, Brother.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Thank you, DS, I'm happy to meet you. Since I'd hate to hijack any topic, maybe you'll start a new one to explain soul
sleep to me. I may know some philosophical problems with it if I understand it. But we can talk about them after you and/or others teach me.
Well, I don't know if there are any forums where a person can start a thread topic directed to a specific individual. I don't think that's how it works here.

However, there is a thread in the Theology forum called "Denominations and soul sleep" (started by @RileyG on May 17, 2022). If you are interested in such a discussion, perhaps you could post something there about these philosophical problems with soul sleep and you and I could explore it. Also, there were a couple of Adventists participating in there who could join in the discussion, as you had originally hoped. I'm definitely interested in learning if there are problems that exist for this view which I haven't already resolved.
 
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BillMcEnaney

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Well, I don't know if there are any forums where a person can start a thread topic directed to a specific individual. I don't think that's how it works here.

However, there is a thread in the Theology forum called "Denominations and soul sleep" (started by @RileyG on May 17, 2022). If you are interested in such a discussion, perhaps you could post something there about these philosophical problems with soul sleep and you and I could explore it. Also, there were a couple of Adventists participating in there who could join in the discussion, as you had originally hoped. I'm definitely interested in learning if there are problems that exist for this view which I haven't already resolved.
 
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BillMcEnaney

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DS, my friend, let's be prudent because I still need you to explain soul sleep. For me, it's hard to know whether Adventists and other "soul sleepers" believe "sleep" is a metaphor for death. If they think each mental event is a physical event, they're physicalists about the mind. It seems to me that if physicalism about the mind is true, no one can believe it rationally since it presupposes causal determinism. But we'll talk about that in another thread.

By the way, I don't want to devote one to Michael Scheifler's theology. I mentioned him and his website because I discussed St. Justin Martyr's First Apology with him.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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DS, my friend, let's be prudent because I still need you to explain soul sleep. For me, it's hard to know whether Adventists and other "soul sleepers" believe "sleep" is a metaphor for death. If they think each mental event is a physical event, they're physicalists about the mind. It seems to me that if physicalism about the mind is true, no one can believe it rationally since it presupposes causal determinism. If our brains work deterministically, immortal souls may compensate for that. But we can talk about the possible problem in another thread.

By the way, I don't want to devote a thread to Michael Scheifler's theology. I mentioned him and his website because I discussed St. Justin Martyr's First Apology with him.
welcome man, you remind me of a co-worker i once had that was into the same reading as you, we got along really well. Miss the guy he moved back to his hometown but i'll never forget him. Glad to have you here man hope you have a good time
 
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BillMcEnaney

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welcome man, you remind me of a co-worker i once had that was into the same reading as you, we got along really well. Miss the guy he moved back to his hometown but i'll never forget him. Glad to have you here man hope you have a good time
Thank you, my friend. I already enjoy being here. But I doubt your ex-coworker would have done what I just did to make my blushing face look third-degree burned.:mad: Let's start the new topic.
 
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DS, my friend, let's be prudent because I still need you to explain soul sleep.

I don't think you need me to explain it because there is, after all, plenty of information about it on the internet. For example, the Wikipedia article on soul sleep (here) is over 5,000 words long and contains a lot of information, both pro and con. And this is not to mention my suspicion that you're already informed on soul sleep because, as you indicated earlier, you're armed with philosophical critiques of it. That wouldn't be possible if you didn't know what soul sleep was. So, I think you're after something a little more precise than "explain soul sleep to me." I don't know but perhaps you mean something like, "What is your position on this question?"—which is something I could answer.

This is why I wanted you to submit a post on the issue (but within that existing thread because you can't start a post yourself just yet). You have a much clearer idea of where to start than I do. From my perspective, the range of possible discussions to be had is just too broad for me to successfully guess at what you're targeting and draft something on point. I was hoping you could submit a post describing the philosophical problems that burden the doctrine (as you understand it) and it could proceed from there. And, hey, if it turns out that your understanding of soul sleep is mistaken, even if only with respect to Adventist beliefs—for it is a bit unique—well, then you will have learned something new, and that's always a positive. Right?

If it helps, Adventists are physicalists of a sort. On their view, the human body is not possessed of an immaterial soul; rather, the human body just is a material soul. They would disagree with substance dualists, who hold that the mind is a feature of the immaterial human soul, while agreeing with property dualists, who hold that the mind is a product of but is not fully reducible to the material human brain (so it parallels but contrasts with reductionism).

So, it gets a bit complicated because, in one sense, they don't believe in soul sleep (since they reject the idea of immaterial souls surviving the dead human body) but, in another sense, they do believe in soul sleep (if we respect their belief that the human body is a soul). It's in the latter sense that they believe the redeemed who die are said to "sleep" (because they await a resurrection to eternal life) whereas the damned who die are said to "perish" (because they await a resurrection to eternal punishment). Keep in mind: Adventists believe in conditional immortality, and so that eternal punishment is annihilation (i.e., a death sentence that is forever).

By way of contrast, Martin Luther did believe in soul sleep in that Cartesian sense, that one has a disembodied immaterial soul that "sleeps" in the intermediate state, to be awakened by Jesus in the resurrection.


For me, it's hard to know whether Adventists and other soul-sleepers believe that "sleep" is a metaphor for death.

They believe that it's a metaphor for physical death in the same sense that Jesus did. When Jesus told his disciples that he was going to awaken Lazarus who had fallen asleep, they took it literally. So, Jesus had to tell them plainly, "Lazarus has died" (John 11:11-14; cf. 1 Thess 4:13-14).


If they think each mental event is a physical event, they're physicalists about the mind.

Yes, they are, but a physicalist is not necessarily a reductionist. So, I don't think the determinism critique follows. It might, I don't know, but at first glance it seems to target reductionism, a particular kind of physicalism.


By the way, I don't want to devote one to Michael Scheifler's theology.

I don't know what it means to "devote" someone to a theology, nor who Michael Scheifler is.

As for Adventists, it's a safe bet that they adhere to the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, which can be found here. (As for their beliefs about soul sleep, see "Death, the State of the Dead, and Resurrection.")
 
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BillMcEnaney

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DS, maybe I know less than you think I do.

After writing the post you just answered, I discovered my mistake. In that post, I argued that since physicalism presupposes causal determinism, it implies that rational thought is impossible. But I forgot that physicalism is false if God exists. Your theism can be logically consistent with physicalism about mental events. So since you understand property dualism, you know it says that though our brains are physical, nonphysical mental events still depend on it. On the other hand, I think there's scientific evidence against soul sleep.


Anyhow, Michael Scheifler confused me when we emailed me about soul sleep because he quoted the KJV. In the KJV, Genesis tells me that Adam became a living soul when God breathed into his, Adam's, nose. But some other translations say that Adam became a living being. That translation sounds compatible with Aristotelian-Thomistic hylomorphism and the belief that the human soul is immortal. The KJV's rendering of the verse seems to conflate the body and the soul or make those words denote a living body. That's why I hope someone will explain why one translation of that verse is better than the other if it is better.

What about conditional salvation? To me, it seems possibly unjust. Suppose that it's true and that I get away with mass murder. Then my mental life ends when I die in my sleep. How will that possibility deter me if I'm a licentious sociopath? In the 1991, when I nearly killed myself, I wanted to die because I thought death would end my emotional pain. After all, nonexistent people don't suffer.

No offense to SDAs. But even articles by professional SDA theologians seem theologically and philosophically superficial when I read them. Those writers seem to comment on proof texts taken out of context. Those people remind me of fundamentalists who memorize Bible verses handwritten on index cards. Maybe it's alright to do that when you know you're interpreting verses in context. But sometimes the context of a passage includes more than one book of the Bible. Some divinely inspired authors quoted un-cited Old Testament passages assuming that readers would know their sources.

In Romans 3, St. Paul seems to describe ancient Jews when he says, "None is righteous, no, not one." But for me, there's a problem with that. Many Protestants, especially Lutherans, assure me that everyone is still unrighteous. Luther even believed that we'd still be that way in heaven because human nature is incurably depraved. If I understand Romans 3, Luther, and many others generalized hastily.

I mean to stay on topic. The point is that many may build major parts of their theology on Bible passages wrenched from their context.
 
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