Free Will challenge

Don Maurer

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Actually, even that is not quite descriptive of the way God runs the Universe. We are indeed free to choose, but we will only choose the path(s) we choose, and none of the others. Freely we choose, yes, and that, according to our desires and proclivities;
"We have the free will to pursue any path of sin we desire." J Mac

How are you saying anything different?


but that 'freely' is still not random, but predetermined. It does not mean robotic, but, as MacBeth found out, what will happen will happen, and that includes, what happens because of our choices.

Yes, of course it is not random, it is predestined (or predetermined). Of course you were not saying robitic, if you read what I said I was speaking of non-Calvinists using that term in an ad-hominid way.

Did you read my post?
 
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Don Maurer

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Only if preknown and not predestined. You apparently define predestined to fit your own theology ... which is actually man's religious theology

So you believe Lydia's faith as well as that of the gentile Roman Centurion (who's Faith amazed even Jesus) had nothing to do with their own choices. You believe both Lydia's and the Centurion's "Faith" was already predetermined in advance by GOD ... with them having done nothing on their own accord to merit their faith? If so then your "predestined" theology is flawed. You've not only made your bed in a flawed theology, but furthermore believe it was predestined by GOD.

Proverbs 3:5 ... trusting in the Lord with all one's heart is up to the individual ... not predestined ... their own choices does make a difference.

Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’​
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”​

Are you saying that to "Love the Lord your God with all year heart and with all your soul" is an act that unregenerate man is capable of? Similar language was used in passages in Deuteronomy.

29:4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

30:6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

Can man love God with all his heart without God first doing something to the heart of man? If you say that the prevenient work of God is not needed before faith can happen, how is that not a meritorious faith? Faith pleases God.
 
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Gup20

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Are you saying that to "Love the Lord your God with all year heart and with all your soul" is an act that unregenerate man is capable of? Similar language was used in passages in Deuteronomy.

29:4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

30:6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

Can man love God with all his heart without God first doing something to the heart of man? If you say that the prevenient work of God is not needed before faith can happen, how is that not a meritorious faith? Faith pleases God.
Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Three times in Deuteronomy 30, God says that life & death, the blessing and the curse, are a choice that God sets before man. It says it is not too difficult for man to make the choice, and the choice is not made by God in heaven. In fact, it even goes so far to say that we do not need the Holy Spirit to come down and make us hear the gospel and believe it.
Deu 30:11-15 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;​

In case you are hoping to get out of this by claiming it to be part of the Law, we already know it is talking about Circumcision of the heart (which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), and Paul sets the record straight on the choice offered in Deuteronomy 30:
Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So can an unregenerate man choose between life and death? Yes, of course! Abraham had faith in the gospel while uncircumcised (in heart or flesh) (Gal 3:8, Rom 4:11). But God gave us a full chapter explaining this choice is not too difficult for us - even for a dead, unregenerate man.
Gen 20:2-3, 7, 14-15, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, "Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please." ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​

So while Abimelech had the choice between life and death, he had no power to affect his life. He had to go through Abraham to get life from God. And the scripture was fulfilled:
Gen 12:3 NASB95 - 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."​
Gal 3:8 NASB95 - 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​
Gen 15:5-7 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your Seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it."​

Abimelech gave Abraham sheep, oxen, servants, 1,000 pieces of silver, and let him settle and POSSES LAND IN CAANAN! (Gerar was where Gaza is now in Israel). The totally depraved, unregenerate king Abimelech (who wasn't even one of God's chosen or elect people) was given the choice between life and death and he chose life and as a result of his unregenerate choice, the Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled. Paul equated the promise in Gen 12:3 to being the very gospel of Jesus Christ. We inherit life and the righteousness of Christ through the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith (Gal 3:6-9, Rom 4:9-13).
Deu 30:19-20 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​
Rom 8:16, 30 NASB95 - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ... 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

The call to salvation is expounded in Deuteronomy 30:19. It is the call to choose between life and death.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"We have the free will to pursue any path of sin we desire." J Mac

How are you saying anything different?




Yes, of course it is not random, it is predestined (or predetermined). Of course you were not saying robitic, if you read what I said I was speaking of non-Calvinists using that term in an ad-hominid way.

Did you read my post?
I was not disagreeing with your post. I read your post and objected (only slightly) to how John Mac put the words to the principle, in that some would say, that to a point, some things are not predetermined, yet I still agree with JMc. I am only pointing out that as far a anyone's decisions, including those of the redeemed believing, who have been regenerated, and are "free indeed", ALL decisions are nevertheless predetermined.
 
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AbbaLove

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Proverbs 3:5 ... trusting in the Lord with all one's heart is up to the individual ... not predestined ... their own choices does make a difference.

Don Maurer said:
"We have the free will to pursue any path of sin we desire." (playing the devil's advocate)

Your somewhat Calvinist excusitive thelogy of "free will" is contrary to the Word of Almighty GOD ...

Deu 30:19-20 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​
 
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Don Maurer

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Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Three times in Deuteronomy 30, God says that life & death, the blessing and the curse, are a choice that God sets before man. It says it is not too difficult for man to make the choice, and the choice is not made by God in heaven. In fact, it even goes so far to say that we do not need the Holy Spirit to come down and make us hear the gospel and believe it.
Deu 30:11-15 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;​
Please excuse this next statement, but the low level of understanding of what Calvinists say is quite disappointing.

It is very rare to meet a non-Calvinists who properly represents Calvinism. Above, the presupposition is that Calvinists are saying that man does not make a choice and thus has no will. This bizarre way of representing what Calvinists say is soooo old. Calvinists can repeat and repeat that we do believe that we make a choice and have a will, but the same charge that we do not believe we make a choice just keeps coming. There seems to be only two possibilities of why I see this pattern of behavior over and over again. One possibility is that non-Calvinists do not understand Reformed soteriology. I lean toward seeing non-Reformed people in this way. They learn what Reformed soteriology says from non-Reformed people who repeat the same mistakes. The 2nd possibility is that it is intentional and that they do not want to deal with what is actually being said in Reformed soteriology.

Why is it that non-Calvinists seem incapable of properly representing Reformed theology? Has any Reformed person ever met another Reformed person who denies that people have a will or make a choice.

My original statement here had to do with Deuteronomy 30:6. God is the agent that circumcises the heart. It is true that I do not believe we have the ability to make a choice on our own nature. I believe Adam made that choice, and after that, we are all in Adam, in original sin. We have a sin nature, and we cannot choose to remove our own sin nature and take upon ourselves a nature by which we can choose anything other than rebellion. Does this mean that I do not believe we can choose? It is painfully obvious that if we "Choose" rebellion, we can and do choose. However, this choice will always be according to our sin nature.

It is obvious that God gave Israel a choice. With the nature that Israel had (sin nature) what choice will they make?

In case you are hoping to get out of this by claiming it to be part of the Law, we already know it is talking about Circumcision of the heart (which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), and Paul sets the record straight on the choice offered in Deuteronomy 30:
Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​
This too saddens me. I am somehow trying to "get our of this?" Is his view of Reformed people that we have to wiggle and squirm to "get out of" associating heart circumcision with the Law? To prove his point he states "we already know it is talking about Circumcision of the heart (which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit),." Interesting proof. How do "we already know?" Where in the scripture do we see that heart circumcision and indwelling of the Spirit are the same identical thing.

Also, in this paragraph, he denies that the Law has any part in circumcision of the heart in Deuteronomy 30:6. It is painfully easy to bring up Scriptures that demonstrate a connection between the Law and heart circumcision. Notice in the context what the effects of heart circumcision.
NASB Deuteronomy 30:8 And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all his commandments which I command you today.

Other contexts...
The New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
Ezekiel 11:19-20 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God."
Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

It is true that the passages above mention the Holy Spirit. This is not to equate the Holy Spirit only with indwelling. Each passage is about Gods work in the heart. The Holy Spirit is the agent of that work and thus is also "put within" us to effect heart circumcision.

So can an unregenerate man choose between life and death? Yes, of course! Abraham had faith in the gospel while uncircumcised (in heart or flesh) (Gal 3:8, Rom 4:11). But God gave us a full chapter explaining this choice is not too difficult for us - even for a dead, unregenerate man.
Gen 20:2-3, 7, 14-15, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, "Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please." ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​
This is definitely not proof at all. This is painfully weak. The writer above assumes that Abraham was unregenerate when he had faith. What really astonishes me about the argumentation is his use of Galatians 3:8. Let me quote... "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” Galatians 3:8 quotes Genesis 12:2. The fact that Abraham heard the Gospel in Genesis 12:2, and no faith statement occurs until Genesis 15 is simply not proof that Regeneration follows faith. What word in the text even speaks of regeneration? The author above, assumes what he is trying to prove.

So while Abimelech had the choice between life and death, he had no power to affect his life. He had to go through Abraham to get life from God. And the scripture was fulfilled:
Gen 12:3 NASB95 - 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."​
Gal 3:8 NASB95 - 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​
Gen 15:5-7 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your Seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it."​

Abimelech gave Abraham sheep, oxen, servants, 1,000 pieces of silver, and let him settle and POSSES LAND IN CAANAN! (Gerar was where Gaza is now in Israel). The totally depraved, unregenerate king Abimelech (who wasn't even one of God's chosen or elect people) was given the choice between life and death and he chose life and as a result of his unregenerate choice, the Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled. Paul equated the promise in Gen 12:3 to being the very gospel of Jesus Christ. We inherit life and the righteousness of Christ through the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith (Gal 3:6-9, Rom 4:9-13).
Deu 30:19-20 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​
Rom 8:16, 30 NASB95 - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ... 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

The call to salvation is expounded in Deuteronomy 30:19. It is the call to choose between life and death.
I am not going to bother to address the comments above, it is a repetition what he already said and again demonstrate the tendency of this writer to assume that what he is trying to prove. "Assuming what he is trying to prove" seems to me his complete methodology of exegesis. I doubt this writer ever read Calvinists. He is misrepresenting Calvinists. He cannot quote any Calvinist exegesis of the scriptures. He does not address any of the verses used by Calvinists to demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith.
 
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Don Maurer

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I was not disagreeing with your post. I read your post and objected (only slightly) to how John Mac put the words to the principle, in that some would say, that to a point, some things are not predetermined, yet I still agree with JMc. I am only pointing out that as far a anyone's decisions, including those of the redeemed believing, who have been regenerated, and are "free indeed", ALL decisions are nevertheless predetermined.
OK
 
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Don Maurer

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Proverbs 3:5 ... trusting in the Lord with all one's heart is up to the individual ... not predestined ... their own choices does make a difference.
This is an assertion without any evidence--> I already believe in personal choice.

JMac already stated we have a choice when he said "we have the free will to persue." The issue is by no means choice, the issue is original sin, or total depravity.

Again, it is surprising that a Reformed person can speak of a choice we make, and non-Reformed people will still deny we are saying what we said.
Don Maurer said:
"We have the free will to pursue any path of sin we desire." (playing the devil's advocate)

Your somewhat Calvinist excusitive thelogy of "free will" is contrary to the Word of Almighty GOD ...

Deu 30:19-20 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​
Oh my, how horrible of me to be "contrary to the Wod of Almighty God." AbbaLove, I hope you do not throw any lightening bolts at me.

Since you did not even begin to address the statement of JMac, why do I reply? Your statement assumes that if a person is called to make a choice that he has the ability to chose what is righteous and please God. Can you even define the difference between "will" and "free will?"
 
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Don Maurer

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Luther's famous work, "On the Bondage of the Will" in Latin is De Servo Arbitrio, literally, "On Un-free Will."

It's a good place to start.
JM, thanks for this. I once began readying Luther's work. It is hard to get past the shock of some of his insults for Roman Catholic theology when I read Luther. I should complete reading this work. Hmm, the word "should," does that obligate me?
 
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Gup20

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It is very rare to meet a non-Calvinists who properly represents Calvinism. Above, the presupposition is that Calvinists are saying that man does not make a choice and thus has no will. This bizarre way of representing what Calvinists say is soooo old. Calvinists can repeat and repeat that we do believe that we make a choice and have a will, but the same charge that we do not believe we make a choice just keeps coming.
It may be just as rare to find Calvinists who properly represent Calvinism. Take this quote from John Calvin's Institutes for the Christian Religion (2207) and compare it to Reformed Theology:

"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."​

Now compare that with what the scriptures say:
Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

This is not a misunderstanding of Calvinism, but a more consistent application of it. I know that the claim of Reformed Calvinists is that God's decree to death for some makes it impossible for him to choose life, but that the choice is still his to make, and he will always choose death. This is hand-waving distinction without a difference. If I set a banana on the table and told my child they could choose between the banana and the apple... but there was no apple... I haven't actually given them a choice. It would be impossible for them to choose the apple, so there is no apple to choose. If God by decree makes it impossible for you to make the choice for life, then He is the one determining your choice, not you.

If we love Him because He first loved us, and God did not set His love on some, then they hate Him because He first hated them.

Instead, God has set both life and death on the table, and then gone so far as to tell us IT IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you to choose life. The choice is not made by God in heaven. You do not need heaven to come down and make you hear the gospel and obey it to choose life.
How do "we already know?" Where in the scripture do we see that heart circumcision and indwelling of the Spirit are the same identical thing.
Rom 2:29 NASB95 - 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

Rom 4:11 NASB95 - 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​
Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​
Circumcision is a PERFECT picture and foreshadow of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The condemned, sinful outer flesh is cut away to reveal the living, inner man.

Rom 7:22 NASB95 - 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,​
Rom 8:10 NASB95 - 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Col 2:11 NASB95 - 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;​
We have a sin nature, and we cannot choose to remove our own sin nature
What causes the sin nature?

Jhn 8:34 NASB95 - 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.​
Heb 2:14-15 NASB95 - 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.​
Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​
Deu 30:19-20 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​

Rom 8:16, 30 NASB95 - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ... 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

I call heaven (the Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) to bare witness (testify) regarding the choice we make for salvation between life and death. But what does Deu 30:19 say? We have a choice. What does Romans 8 say? We have a choice between life and death!

Rom 8:5-6 NASB95 - 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,​

To "set your mind" means to choose (just like "change your mind" but with commitment). Our fear of death, far from preventing us from choosing life, can be a powerful motivation to choose life, just as it was for Abimelech.

Gen 20:2-3, 7-8, 14, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." 8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​

Abimelech was given the choice between life and death. His fear of death (sin nature, enslaving him to sin) far from preventing him from choosing life was actually a motivating factor in him choosing life. His "fear of the Lord" was faith. Abimelech was able to repent and choose life, but in spite of his choice he had no power to actually heal himself. He had to go through Abraham's covenant relationship and God Himself did the work of regenerating him to life AFTER he repented.

Rev 14:6-7 NASB95 - 6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."​

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith in the gospel. What is the "gospel" but the good news that we are rescued from death. To believe the "good news" presupposes the bad news exists - that there is a death you need to be afraid of and turn from.

Notice in the context what the effects of heart circumcision.
Notice other context. V1, 15, 19 all speak to the choice between life & death, the blessing and the curse which are being commmanded to make. Further, the context of v6 is v 4-5:

Deu 30:4-6 NASB95 - 4 "If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 "The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​
Eze 36:24-28 NASB95 - 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.​
Gal 3:14 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

Is it strange to relate circumcision to the Abrahamic covenant and the land promises? Certainly not... Circumcision is instituted in Gen 17 within the Abrahamic covenant. Paul says the "promise of the Spirit" was a promise first given to Abraham! The context of circumcision of the heart is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith. As I showed you above, Abraham establishes the pattern of salvation (righteousness through faith), and in his pattern, faith precedes righteousness and circumcision.

Gal 3:21 NASB95 - 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Gal 3:11 YLT - 11 and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because 'The righteous by faith shall live;'​

The righteous by faith (present tense) shall live (future tense). So in relation to faith, regeneration to life is in the future tense. Therefore faith precedes regeneration to life. Further, Abraham was unregenerate (unrighteous) and uncircumcised (not indwelled) when he believed the gospel.
The writer above assumes that Abraham was unregenerate when he had faith. ...What word in the text even speaks of regeneration?
I completely agree, Abraham was unregenerate. The word in the text that speaks to regeneration to life is righteousness. Righteousness is regeneration to life.

Gal 3:21 NASB95 - 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​
Rom 5:17 NASB95 - 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​
Hab 2:4 NASB95 - 4 "Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.​
Gal 3:11 NASB95 - 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."​
Rom 3:24-26 NASB95 - 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. [This was] to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, [I say,] of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 5:18 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​


If death came by sin, then it stands to reason that regeneration to LIFE comes by righteousness.

Rom 10:6 NASB95 - 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), (quotes DEU 30:11-15)​
Phl 3:9 NASB95 - 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from [the] Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which [comes] from God on the basis of faith,​

Righteousness is justification to life. Abraham was credited (promised) righteousness for his faith. But not only for him, but so that his descendants would obtain that regeneration as well.

Rom 4:11 NASB95 - 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​
For the promise to Abraham was at it's very heart, grace to he and to his descendants and in it's core the blessing of Abraham is the regeneration of Sarah's womb back to life.
 
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Gup20

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Righteousness = life

Rom 8:10 NASB95 - 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

Grace was first extended to Abraham and his descendants.

Rom 4:16-18 NASB95 - 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE."​
Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

The very moment grace was extended to humanity is when God said "and to your seed" in reference to the righteousness He was promising Abraham. God promised the unborn descendants of Abraham the same blessing of Abraham (righteousness which is regeneration to life) who had done nothing yet to be deserving of such righteousness.

abraham.jpg
 
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JM

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All beliefs about what we think the Bible is affirming can be classified. It is the same argument people use when then they believe in the triune nature of God but object to being called a Trinitarian because they also argue they just believe the Bible so labels don't apply to them either.

Do you believe God could not create a universe where Adam and Eve had a choice to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action?
Since the majority of Bible translations do not affirm translating the phrase as God creating evil, I do not have to do any Hebrew gymnastics. Or do you consider the KJV to be the correct or most correct translation. Ironically, it was James White's work which convinced me that this was a false position to take.
No longer a forum I am allowed to argue in and honesty don't care to.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith in Chapter 9 Paragraph 1 and 2 describes Adam and Eve as having free will (the ability to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action) prior to the fall.

There appears to be no scriptural basis for believing this ability was lost at the fall without violating good Bible interpretation principles.

How would you answer this with scripture and good hermeneutics?
The following does not address Adam and Eve directly but gives my case for the idea we have free will with regard to salvation. It is taken from my website where I discuss free will.

The Sixty-Second case for free will​

Note that the following is just a summary not an exhaustive case for free will. We will expand on each of the points as the page progresses. But the following gives a strong case for free will before we begin.

The Bible Supports Free Will​

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected group. The following scriptures show God gives all people, those who believe, and those who don’t a chance at life. Note the wording shows that “all” truly means all, believing Jew, believing Gentile, and all unbelievers. So we see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a select group.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit. Note John 14 is a passage that exclusively speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, and how it occurs. It shows that man is responsible for his salvation, God gives His light, but how we respond determines our destiny.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

  1. We receive God's words
  2. We obey God's words
  3. God loves the person who obeys
  4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit
This shows man's actions are important in the salvation journey.

The Old Testament also teaches personal accountability and shows that it is man's, not God’s, choosing that determines his salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It is not a predetermined choice by God that determines our outcome and salvation.

The Early Church Fathers believed in Free Will not Predestination​

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (within around 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

 
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Don Maurer

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This is not a misunderstanding of Calvinism, but a more consistent application of it. I know that the claim of Reformed Calvinists is that God's decree to death for some makes it impossible for him to choose life, but that the choice is still his to make, and he will always choose death. This is hand-waving distinction without a difference. If I set a banana on the table and told my child they could choose between the banana and the apple... but there was no apple... I haven't actually given them a choice. It would be impossible for them to choose the apple, so there is no apple to choose. If God by decree makes it impossible for you to make the choice for life, then He is the one determining your choice, not you.
I am going to admit that I read only part of the post above. It looks like your thinking is that if you quote lots of verses, then it justifies your misrepresentation of Reformed soteriology. Somehow, you feel justified in misrepresenting Reformed theology. You really think such an approach will be convincing? Your telling my that I cannot be saying what I am saying. I have been in Calvinist circles for quite a few years and have never heard a Calvinist say that we do not choose. To insist upon your straw man only discredits you. It is funny when you try to tell a Calvinists what Calvinists believe and misrepresent it, and when you are corrected, you just insist that Calvinists believe people do not make choices. Really? LOL!

The words above is the typical example of a non-Calvinist making no attempt to even bother to understand what is being said in Reformed soteriology and continuing to repeat the same falsehoods and straw men.

Your illustration is a perfect example of how you misrepresent Reformed soteriology. If a reformed person were to make such an illustration, it would be more like this....
If I set an fresh fruit and a pile of doggy dung on a table and offered my child that he should choose which one he wants to eat, he would make a choice, a choice according to his nature. Now if my child were a fly, his nature would be different. A fly might choose the doggy dung. Now you might whine that this is not a true choice because the nature of a human or fly will determine which choice he makes, but that is the point!

If you look at my illustration and yours, you can see yours completely ignores sin nature, therrein is the difference between Reformed soteriology and your Pelagian soteriology.
 
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Gup20

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I am going to admit that I read only part of the post above.
Then you can't intelligently or accurately characterize it.
You really think such an approach will be convincing? Your telling my that I cannot be saying what I am saying. I have been in Calvinist circles for quite a few years and have never heard a Calvinist say that we do not choose. To insist upon your straw man only discredits you. It is funny when you try to tell a Calvinists what Calvinists believe and misrepresent it, and when you are corrected, you just insist that Calvinists believe people do not make choices. Really? LOL!
I quoted John Calvin's words. That is what Calvinism is - the systematic theology of John Calvin.
The words above is the typical example of a non-Calvinist making no attempt to even bother to understand what is being said in Reformed soteriology and continuing to repeat the same falsehoods and straw men.
I know that the claim of Reformed Calvinists is that God's decree to death for some makes it impossible for him to choose life, but that the choice is still his to make, and he will always choose death. This is hand-waving distinction without a difference.
I strong-maned your argument and then countered it. It wasn't that I didn't bother to understand it... I understood it and rejected it.
Your illustration is a perfect example of how you misrepresent Reformed soteriology. If a reformed person were to make such an illustration, it would be more like this....
If I set an fresh fruit and a pile of doggy dung on a table and offered my child that he should choose which one he wants to eat, he would make a choice, a choice according to his nature. Now if my child were a fly, his nature would be different. A fly might choose the doggy dung. Now you might whine that this is not a true choice because the nature of a human or fly will determine which choice he makes, but that is the point!
I'm going to use this illustration from now on and credit Calvinists with it.
If you look at my illustration and yours, you can see yours completely ignores sin nature, therrein is the difference between Reformed soteriology and your Pelagian soteriology.

What causes the sin nature?

Jhn 8:34 NASB95 - 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Heb 2:14-15 NASB95 - 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
If you hadn't skipped the reading you would have seen I did in fact address the sin nature.

The sin nature is CAUSED by our fear of death. Far from preventing us from choosing life, our fear of death can actually motivate us to choose life. I went on to give an actual example from scripture of someone's fear of death motivating them to choose life.

Our fear of death, far from preventing us from choosing life, can be a powerful motivation to choose life, just as it was for Abimelech.

Gen 20:2-3, 7-8, 14, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." 8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.

Abimelech was given the choice between life and death. His fear of death (sin nature, enslaving him to sin) far from preventing him from choosing life was actually a motivating factor in him choosing life. His "fear of the Lord" was faith. Abimelech was able to repent and choose life, but in spite of his choice he had no power to actually heal himself. He had to go through Abraham's covenant relationship and God Himself did the work of regenerating him to life AFTER he repented.

Rev 14:6-7 NASB95 - 6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith in the gospel. What is the "gospel" but the good news that we are rescued from death. To believe the "good news" presupposes the bad news exists - that there is a death you need to be afraid of and turn from.
 
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Gup20

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I am going to admit that I read only part of the post above. It looks like your thinking is that if you quote lots of verses, then it justifies your misrepresentation of Reformed soteriology. Somehow, you feel justified in misrepresenting Reformed theology. You really think such an approach will be convincing? Your telling my that I cannot be saying what I am saying. I have been in Calvinist circles for quite a few years and have never heard a Calvinist say that we do not choose. To insist upon your straw man only discredits you. It is funny when you try to tell a Calvinists what Calvinists believe and misrepresent it, and when you are corrected, you just insist that Calvinists believe people do not make choices. Really? LOL!

The words above is the typical example of a non-Calvinist making no attempt to even bother to understand what is being said in Reformed soteriology and continuing to repeat the same falsehoods and straw men.

Your illustration is a perfect example of how you misrepresent Reformed soteriology. If a reformed person were to make such an illustration, it would be more like this....
If I set an fresh fruit and a pile of doggy dung on a table and offered my child that he should choose which one he wants to eat, he would make a choice, a choice according to his nature. Now if my child were a fly, his nature would be different. A fly might choose the doggy dung. Now you might whine that this is not a true choice because the nature of a human or fly will determine which choice he makes, but that is the point!

If you look at my illustration and yours, you can see yours completely ignores sin nature, therrein is the difference between Reformed soteriology and your Pelagian soteriology.
I posted this to my social media:

...
I am not kidding, this is the Calvinist's response to my argument:

"Your illustration is a perfect example of how you misrepresent Reformed soteriology. If a reformed person were to make such an illustration, it would be more like this.... If I set an fresh fruit and a pile of doggy dung on a table and offered my child that he should choose which one he wants to eat, he would make a choice, a choice according to his nature. Now if my child were a fly, his nature would be different. A fly might choose the doggy dung. Now you might whine that this is not a true choice because the nature of a human or fly will determine which choice he makes, but that is the point!" (random Reformed Calvinist)​

That's it! That is exactly why Provisionists think Calvinism maligns the character of God. No loving father would put a pile of dung on the table for their child to eat. No loving creator would create a child who likes dung and prevent them from being any other way.

Rom 5:12 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned​
Sin came into the world THROUGH MAN. It was not the invention or intention of God. The corruption was not part of God's design, nor His will. Death is God's punishment for sin. It is God's judgement for sin. Judging sin IS GOOD. We want God to be just and judge sin. We do not want evil in the world. Death (God's judgement for sin) is not a pile of dung. It is justice. It is good to reject evil. The options set before man are both good. It is SIN which is bad, and that was the invention of man. But God has provided mercy. You can choose to utilize God's provision of mercy or not. Either way, sin is judged - either in you or in Christ's substitutionary atonement.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I posted this to my social media:

...
I am not kidding, this is the Calvinist's response to my argument:
"Your illustration is a perfect example of how you misrepresent Reformed soteriology. If a reformed person were to make such an illustration, it would be more like this.... If I set an fresh fruit and a pile of doggy dung on a table and offered my child that he should choose which one he wants to eat, he would make a choice, a choice according to his nature. Now if my child were a fly, his nature would be different. A fly might choose the doggy dung. Now you might whine that this is not a true choice because the nature of a human or fly will determine which choice he makes, but that is the point!" (random Reformed Calvinist)​

That's it! That is exactly why Provisionists think Calvinism maligns the character of God. No loving father would put a pile of dung on the table for their child to eat. No loving creator would create a child who likes dung and prevent them from being any other way.

Rom 5:12 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned​
Sin came into the world THROUGH MAN. It was not the invention or intention of God. The corruption was not part of God's design, nor His will. Death is God's punishment for sin. It is God's judgement for sin. Judging sin IS GOOD. We want God to be just and judge sin. We do not want evil in the world. Death (God's judgement for sin) is not a pile of dung. It is justice. It is good to reject evil. The options set before man are both good. It is SIN which is bad, and that was the invention of man. But God has provided mercy. You can choose to utilize God's provision of mercy or not. Either way, sin is judged - either in you or in Christ's substitutionary atonement.
So, in your metric, God did not create anyone who, by whatever reason they became what they are, prefer sin to submission to God? Dung, my man!
 
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Gup20

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So, in your metric, God did not create anyone who, by whatever reason they became what they are, prefer sin to submission to God? Dung, my man!
The sin is the dung, not grace, and not justice. Does God set sin before man and say "choose life or sin?" No. God sets before man life (provision) and death (justice).
Which is the say God sets before man justice (Jesus is punished on our behalf) and justice (you take your own punishment). Justice is good, so both options are good. Neither is dung.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The sin is the dung, not grace, and not justice. Does God set sin before man and say "choose life or sin?" No. God sets before man life (provision) and death (justice).
Which is the say God sets before man justice (Jesus is punished on our behalf) and justice (you take your own punishment). Justice is good, so both options are good. Neither is dung.
Nicely arranged, but not representative.
 
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