"Fire Insurance" Salvation?

[Kokavkrystallos]

Fire Insurance: aka, Get Out of Hell Free Card. A one time profession will seal you no matter what you do or how you live afterwards. Is it realistic?

Fire Insurance basically is getting saved once, and you can go out and live however you want; you'll still be saved, but you won't be happy and you won't get any rewards.
This theory falls back on Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The LORD showed me that verse 10 has to go with it, and the believeth unto righteousness is a belief of the heart that produces actions or behaviors following.

I suppose those who teach such things as Fire Insurance salvation could also fall back on "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory" (Matthew 12:20 quoting Isaiah 42:3)

I was laying out in an old field today and in front of me there was a bruised reed - actually a stalk of hay bruised in 2 places, bent over twice but still standing. So I was contemplating this "bruised reed" and thinking how it might represent a bruised or weak person. A smoking flax would be a wick that has lost its flame but still smoking and has a red ember still on it. Just a little glow, and about to soon die. It's near dead. But Jesus says He won't quench it; He won't snuff it out. However, I think He would breathe life into it that it flame again and burn brightly.

And then there's no man can pluck them out of my hand, as Jesus said, or ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. (John 10:28, Ephesians 1:13)

Yet there are too many Scriptures, including Jesus own words that would seem to contradict any form of Fire Insurance salvation.

Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven'

Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 7:20-23, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 25:24-30 "Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This appears to show that if you do nothing with the gift of salvation you think you have, and refuse to be a servant of Christ, and utilize the gifts He has for you, you're not saved. This may be the best passage against Fire Insurance claims!)

Luke 13:3 & 5, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
(Note the WERE some of you, and ye are washed and sanctified - which means set apart, separated)

Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:6 -10, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

OK, ultimately God is the judge, and it's His call. But, why would scripture teach so much on repentance, and holiness, and godliness, and sanctification - warning about right living, not of works but by faith, because of the Spirit that dwelleth within us once we are born again.
My belief is if you say a prayer and might even be sincere, but there's no change, and especially if the only reason is to get out of hell and you ask Christ to save you but you don't have any hatred of sin or desire to flee from godless pastimes, then you were not saved. It may have been an intellectual thing, or a worldly sorrow that worketh death, but it wasn't Holy Spirit conviction, repentance granted, grace received, turning with your heart to God.

I'd be very very cautious of any form of Fire Insurance salvation, because I don't think there is such a thing.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Such thinking is a consequence of modern Decisionist theology. Decisionism as a set of theological principles and body of doctrine emerged, and coalesced in the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century in the United States and afterward in the 20th century. Which places the locus of salvation as a distinct, definitive, and personal decision to follow Jesus, often represented in two unique practices which emerged in this same period of time: The Anxious Bench (aka the Altar Call) and the Sinner's Prayer.

In Decisionism this personal decision, which affects one's salvation by moving a person from an unsaved state to a saved state, treats the decision as a kind of contract between God and man, in which an extended offer of salvation from God is accepted by the individual, and once the contract is "signed" there is an agreement: the person is now saved.

Because of the consequence of this sometimes leading to what is described as "fire insurance", some have attempted to modify the doctrine in ways which then stress the importance of personal piety, devotion, and holiness (aka good works) as a means of either securing, affirming, or maintaining the contract; but it still remains a contract.

I'm coming here from a Lutheran perspective, and so am quite critical of Decisionism, in any form; because regardless of how it is shaped, or modified, it boils down to salvation as a contract and that the principal agent of salvation is the self. I am the agent in control of my salvation, by entering into the contractual agreement in the first place, and/or by maintaining it.

The Lutheran position instead understands that salvation is the working of God, who gives, creates, and strengthens faith; faith which passively receives the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (i.e. Justification); and God does this through His own Means of Grace (Word and Sacrament). I am not saved because I made a personal decision to follow Jesus, nor am I saved by maintaining it through personal holiness, or piety, or good works; instead God is always the One who is coming down, and by His grace, working, creating, giving, and strengthening faith to receive Christ's righteousness as a pure gift. In this I am invited to cooperate with God, not for righteousness before God, but to a life of taking up my cross, following Jesus, because my neighbor is in need of food, drink, shelter, clothes, medicine, and hospitality.

Faith alone (Sola Fide) receives the righteousness and full benefit of what Christ alone has done (Solus Christus), which God gives freely out of His super-abundant kindness and generosity alone (Sola Gratia). So that I am justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone; and now in this mortal life, in the struggle between the old Adam and the new man in Christ, the old Adam must continually die and the new man continually made alive. The old man is put to death by the Law, which declares me a sinner for I transgress, indeed I daily transgress, God's Law and I can do nothing but despair and fall to my knees confessing that I am indeed a sinner full of sickness and death; but the new man is made alive by the Gospel which declares all sins forgiven for Christ's sake, and which lifts me up clothed in Christ and presented blameless before God, holy and righteous (it is Christ's holiness and righteousness, not my own). And then sends me out into the world, to live by faith, to depend upon grace, and to love my neighbor.

The commandment says "Do not murder" to tell me that murder is wrong, and also to accuse me of being a murderer--for I am a murderer, in my heart I am a murderer, for I am angry and full of grievances against my fellow man; and from the heart which holds grudges, which bears anger, comes works and words of violence to put my neighbor to death. Knowing, therefore, that I am a murderer, I stand condemned and there is nothing I can do or say to vindicate myself. I am guilty of every charge made against me. Therefore "Do not murder" can never justify me, I can never stand before God free of guilt from the condemnation which this commandment levies against me. I cannot, in any and all of my works, cease to be a murderer. But God, for Christ's sake, declares me pardoned, and more than pardoned, but justified--for Christ, His only-begotten and beloved Son, is righteous. I receive what I could not do or gain, for Christ Himself gains it for me, and Christ gives it to me, so that whomever the Son sets free is free indeed. And thus by His life, suffering, death, and resurrection I am declared just, for He is just, and the justifier of the ungodly.

So then why good works? Why love my neighbor rather than murder my neighbor? So that by my works I might cease to be a murderer? The Law stands, and condemns my sinful works and calls them what they are, sin. No, rather, because my neighbor is hungry, and needs food. Though I remain, in my own flesh, a murderer God, by His grace, works life where there is death. I am sinful beyond measure; but Christ is perfect and righteous.

So I am unholy and unrighteous, in my flesh; but by the grace of God I am righteous and blameless for in Christ I stand. Therefore, I do not work in order that I might be justified, but in order that my neighbor might be edified. So that holiness and piety are not measures by which I come before God in my works; but rather are measures by which I come before my neighbor in love.

So then, should I sin in order that grace abounds all the more? No! For I have died to sin, and must live to God--for having been killed and buried with Christ in baptism I have been raised with Him in baptism. Therefore let the Law continually put my flesh to death, killing the old Adam; and may God's grace give me, in Christ, life everlasting. I am therefore continually, and always, present at the cross of Jesus Christ, where alone my sins are atoned, and God grants me pardon. To go anywhere else I will surely be destroyed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Such thinking is a consequence of modern Decisionist theology. Decisionism as a set of theological principles and body of doctrine emerged, and coalesced in the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century in the United States and afterward in the 20th century. Which places the locus of salvation as a distinct, definitive, and personal decision to follow Jesus, often represented in two unique practices which emerged in this same period of time: The Anxious Bench (aka the Altar Call) and the Sinner's Prayer.

In Decisionism this personal decision, which affects one's salvation by moving a person from an unsaved state to a saved state, treats the decision as a kind of contract between God and man, in which an extended offer of salvation from God is accepted by the individual, and once the contract is "signed" there is an agreement: the person is now saved.

Because of the consequence of this sometimes leading to what is described as "fire insurance", some have attempted to modify the doctrine in ways which then stress the importance of personal piety, devotion, and holiness (aka good works) as a means of either securing, affirming, or maintaining the contract; but it still remains a contract.

I'm coming here from a Lutheran perspective, and so am quite critical of Decisionism, in any form; because regardless of how it is shaped, or modified, it boils down to salvation as a contract and that the principal agent of salvation is the self. I am the agent in control of my salvation, by entering into the contractual agreement in the first place, and/or by maintaining it.

The Lutheran position instead understands that salvation is the working of God, who gives, creates, and strengthens faith; faith which passively receives the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (i.e. Justification); and God does this through His own Means of Grace (Word and Sacrament). I am not saved because I made a personal decision to follow Jesus, nor am I saved by maintaining it through personal holiness, or piety, or good works; instead God is always the One who is coming down, and by His grace, working, creating, giving, and strengthening faith to receive Christ's righteousness as a pure gift. In this I am invited to cooperate with God, not for righteousness before God, but to a life of taking up my cross, following Jesus, because my neighbor is in need of food, drink, shelter, clothes, medicine, and hospitality.

Faith alone (Sola Fide) receives the righteousness and full benefit of what Christ alone has done (Solus Christus), which God gives freely out of His super-abundant kindness and generosity alone (Sola Gratia). So that I am justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone; and now in this mortal life, in the struggle between the old Adam and the new man in Christ, the old Adam must continually die and the new man continually made alive. The old man is put to death by the Law, which declares me a sinner for I transgress, indeed I daily transgress, God's Law and I can do nothing but despair and fall to my knees confessing that I am indeed a sinner full of sickness and death; but the new man is made alive by the Gospel which declares all sins forgiven for Christ's sake, and which lifts me up clothed in Christ and presented blameless before God, holy and righteous (it is Christ's holiness and righteousness, not my own). And then sends me out into the world, to live by faith, to depend upon grace, and to love my neighbor.

The commandment says "Do not murder" to tell me that murder is wrong, and also to accuse me of being a murderer--for I am a murderer, in my heart I am a murderer, for I am angry and full of grievances against my fellow man; and from the heart which holds grudges, which bears anger, comes works and words of violence to put my neighbor to death. Knowing, therefore, that I am a murderer, I stand condemned and there is nothing I can do or say to vindicate myself. I am guilty of every charge made against me. Therefore "Do not murder" can never justify me, I can never stand before God free of guilt from the condemnation which this commandment levies against me. I cannot, in any and all of my works, cease to be a murderer. But God, for Christ's sake, declares me pardoned, and more than pardoned, but justified--for Christ, His only-begotten and beloved Son, is righteous. I receive what I could not do or gain, for Christ Himself gains it for me, and Christ gives it to me, so that whomever the Son sets free is free indeed. And thus by His life, suffering, death, and resurrection I am declared just, for He is just, and the justifier of the ungodly.

So then why good works? Why love my neighbor rather than murder my neighbor? So that by my works I might cease to be a murderer? The Law stands, and condemns my sinful works and calls them what they are, sin. No, rather, because my neighbor is hungry, and needs food. Though I remain, in my own flesh, a murderer God, by His grace, works life where there is death. I am sinful beyond measure; but Christ is perfect and righteous.

So I am unholy and unrighteous, in my flesh; but by the grace of God I am righteous and blameless for in Christ I stand. Therefore, I do not work in order that I might be justified, but in order that my neighbor might be edified. So that holiness and piety are not measures by which I come before God in my works; but rather are measures by which I come before my neighbor in love.

So then, should I sin in order that grace abounds all the more? No! For I have died to sin, and must live to God--for having been killed and buried with Christ in baptism I have been raised with Him in baptism. Therefore let the Law continually put my flesh to death, killing the old Adam; and may God's grace give me, in Christ, life everlasting. I am therefore continually, and always, present at the cross of Jesus Christ, where alone my sins are atoned, and God grants me pardon. To go anywhere else I will surely be destroyed.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe there is a time a "decision" is made to answer the call of grace: willful but only within the parameters of Gods having chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that there is an ongoing walk.

Jesus never taught anything about a one time decision, then leaving it at that. Rather, He said, "Follow me."

Also, John 6:65-69,
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

There is a perseverance: to him that overcomes, to them that endure to the end.

 

[d taylor]

Fire Insurance: aka, Get Out of Hell Free Card. A one time profession will seal you no matter what you do or how you live afterwards. Is it realistic?

Fire Insurance basically is getting saved once, and you can go out and live however you want; you'll still be saved, but you won't be happy and you won't get any rewards.
This theory falls back on Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The LORD showed me that verse 10 has to go with it, and the believeth unto righteousness is a belief of the heart that produces actions or behaviors following.

I suppose those who teach such things as Fire Insurance salvation could also fall back on "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory" (Matthew 12:20 quoting Isaiah 42:3)

I was laying out in an old field today and in front of me there was a bruised reed - actually a stalk of hay bruised in 2 places, bent over twice but still standing. So I was contemplating this "bruised reed" and thinking how it might represent a bruised or weak person. A smoking flax would be a wick that has lost its flame but still smoking and has a red ember still on it. Just a little glow, and about to soon die. It's near dead. But Jesus says He won't quench it; He won't snuff it out. However, I think He would breathe life into it that it flame again and burn brightly.

And then there's no man can pluck them out of my hand, as Jesus said, or ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. (John 10:28, Ephesians 1:13)

Yet there are too many Scriptures, including Jesus own words that would seem to contradict any form of Fire Insurance salvation.

Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven'

Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 7:20-23, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 25:24-30 "Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This appears to show that if you do nothing with the gift of salvation you think you have, and refuse to be a servant of Christ, and utilize the gifts He has for you, you're not saved. This may be the best passage against Fire Insurance claims!)

Luke 13:3 & 5, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
(Note the WERE some of you, and ye are washed and sanctified - which means set apart, separated)

Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:6 -10, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

OK, ultimately God is the judge, and it's His call. But, why would scripture teach so much on repentance, and holiness, and godliness, and sanctification - warning about right living, not of works but by faith, because of the Spirit that dwelleth within us once we are born again.
My belief is if you say a prayer and might even be sincere, but there's no change, and especially if the only reason is to get out of hell and you ask Christ to save you but you don't have any hatred of sin or desire to flee from godless pastimes, then you were not saved. It may have been an intellectual thing, or a worldly sorrow that worketh death, but it wasn't Holy Spirit conviction, repentance granted, grace received, turning with your heart to God.

I'd be very very cautious of any form of Fire Insurance salvation, because I don't think there is such a thing.

-
​

This fire insurance is a man concocted idea. Nowhere does The Bible state God is offering fire insurance Man has invented this from the misuse of specific Biblical verses.

It is plainly stated God is offering His free gift of Eternal Life to any person who believes in Jesus for Eternal Life.
At the very moment of belief in Jesus, believing that Jesus is who He says He is: the resurrection and the life, the promised Messiah Son of God (Messiah and Son of God are the same names/titles of Jesus)

The person who believes becomes a permanent born again child of God who has crossed over from death to life. With no strings attached, like following Christ, confessing Jesus, repenting from sins, being baptized, etc..

They expected to do work (discipleship and growth), works approved by God and done in The Holy Spirit, to have a good bema seat Judgment for rewards.

​

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe there is a time a "decision" is made to answer the call of grace: willful but only within the parameters of Gods having chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that there is an ongoing walk.

Jesus never taught anything about a one time decision, then leaving it at that. Rather, He said, "Follow me."

Also, John 6:65-69,
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

There is a perseverance: to him that overcomes, to them that endure to the end.

The decision to follow is one we have to make all the time. It's not a decision to "get saved", but the decision to follow Jesus. Every day is filled with numerous choices, opportunities, and challenges, and do we follow Jesus, or do we follow ourselves? Someone cuts me of in traffic, how do I respond in that moment? Someone curses me out, how do I respond? Someone threatens me with violence, how do I respond? "Take up your cross and follow Me" is a continual invitation and call: Calling ourselves Christians, do we follow Him, or do we do things our own way? Do we take the narrow road, or the broad road?

But we must never understand this as how we are made right with God. This is not what saves us, or reconciles us to God, or makes us holy or righteous before God. Only Jesus Christ, by what He has done, makes us right before the Father. For what He has accomplished, He has accomplished for all, justifying all by His life, suffering, and death (Romans 5:18) which we receive as a pure gift, through faith alone (Romans 4:22-25).

In faith, which God grants to us that we might believe and be converted, we hear the call "Follow Me" and in faith we take up our cross, to endure the abuses of this mortal life and the sufferings of this fallen world, to bear the weakness of our fallen flesh with all of its temptations, and yet keep moving. Not that we might, in the end, be found righteous by our efforts; but that we hear the Master's call, and the Spirit Himself turning our stony hearts to hearts of flesh, which grieves over our sin, with contrition; and which beholds our neighbor with loving compassion and mercy. That we ought do unto others as we would have them do unto us. That in love we should live, by the Holy Spirit who keeps us in faith, that we should abide in Christ by faith; and the same Spirit who keeps us in love, that we should abide in our neighbor by love.

To follow the Lord is not to live for the glory of future paradise through our own efforts and our own ideas of righteousness or holiness; but to live in accordance with the weakness of the cross, to have "this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus ... who emptied Himself, becoming a slave" (Philippians 2:5-8). For whoever desires to keep his life shall lose it, but whoever gives it away for Christ's sake, shall have it (Matthew 16:25).

True religion shall never earn us glory.
True religion shall earn us a cross, by which we suffer; and in the suffering of the cross we shall live free and abundantly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The decision to follow is one we have to make all the time. It's not a decision to "get saved", but the decision to follow Jesus. Every day is filled with numerous choices, opportunities, and challenges, and do we follow Jesus, or do we follow ourselves? Someone cuts me of in traffic, how do I respond in that moment? Someone curses me out, how do I respond? Someone threatens me with violence, how do I respond? "Take up your cross and follow Me" is a continual invitation and call: Calling ourselves Christians, do we follow Him, or do we do things our own way? Do we take the narrow road, or the broad road?

But we must never understand this as how we are made right with God. This is not what saves us, or reconciles us to God, or makes us holy or righteous before God. Only Jesus Christ, by what He has done, makes us right before the Father. For what He has accomplished, He has accomplished for all, justifying all by His life, suffering, and death (Romans 5:18) which we receive as a pure gift, through faith alone (Romans 4:22-25).

In faith, which God grants to us that we might believe and be converted, we hear the call "Follow Me" and in faith we take up our cross, to endure the abuses of this mortal life and the sufferings of this fallen world, to bear the weakness of our fallen flesh with all of its temptations, and yet keep moving. Not that we might, in the end, be found righteous by our efforts; but that we hear the Master's call, and the Spirit Himself turning our stony hearts to hearts of flesh, which grieves over our sin, with contrition; and which beholds our neighbor with loving compassion and mercy. That we ought do unto others as we would have them do unto us. That in love we should live, by the Holy Spirit who keeps us in faith, that we should abide in Christ by faith; and the same Spirit who keeps us in love, that we should abide in our neighbor by love.

To follow the Lord is not to live for the glory of future paradise through our own efforts and our own ideas of righteousness or holiness; but to live in accordance with the weakness of the cross, to have "this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus ... who emptied Himself, becoming a slave" (Philippians 2:5-8). For whoever desires to keep his life shall lose it, but whoever gives it away for Christ's sake, shall have it (Matthew 16:25).

True religion shall never earn us glory.
True religion shall earn us a cross, by which we suffer; and in the suffering of the cross we shall live free and abundantly.

-CryptoLutheran

Your #2 and this one are yet another great posts. They deserve a cut and paste into personal archives. Thanks.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

The decision to follow is one we have to make all the time. It's not a decision to "get saved", but the decision to follow Jesus. Every day is filled with numerous choices, opportunities, and challenges, and do we follow Jesus, or do we follow ourselves? Someone cuts me of in traffic, how do I respond in that moment? Someone curses me out, how do I respond? Someone threatens me with violence, how do I respond? "Take up your cross and follow Me" is a continual invitation and call: Calling ourselves Christians, do we follow Him, or do we do things our own way? Do we take the narrow road, or the broad road?

But we must never understand this as how we are made right with God. This is not what saves us, or reconciles us to God, or makes us holy or righteous before God. Only Jesus Christ, by what He has done, makes us right before the Father. For what He has accomplished, He has accomplished for all, justifying all by His life, suffering, and death (Romans 5:18) which we receive as a pure gift, through faith alone (Romans 4:22-25).

In faith, which God grants to us that we might believe and be converted, we hear the call "Follow Me" and in faith we take up our cross, to endure the abuses of this mortal life and the sufferings of this fallen world, to bear the weakness of our fallen flesh with all of its temptations, and yet keep moving. Not that we might, in the end, be found righteous by our efforts; but that we hear the Master's call, and the Spirit Himself turning our stony hearts to hearts of flesh, which grieves over our sin, with contrition; and which beholds our neighbor with loving compassion and mercy. That we ought do unto others as we would have them do unto us. That in love we should live, by the Holy Spirit who keeps us in faith, that we should abide in Christ by faith; and the same Spirit who keeps us in love, that we should abide in our neighbor by love.

To follow the Lord is not to live for the glory of future paradise through our own efforts and our own ideas of righteousness or holiness; but to live in accordance with the weakness of the cross, to have "this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus ... who emptied Himself, becoming a slave" (Philippians 2:5-8). For whoever desires to keep his life shall lose it, but whoever gives it away for Christ's sake, shall have it (Matthew 16:25).

True religion shall never earn us glory.
True religion shall earn us a cross, by which we suffer; and in the suffering of the cross we shall live free and abundantly.

-CryptoLutheran

I do agree with all of this, though I believe there is a time of conversion: when one consciously answers that call to "follow me." As you say, from then on it's a daily thing.
The time of conversion can be at an altar call, but I feel there should be more than just a 60 second prayer; more like crying out when you are convicted of your sin, and tarrying on the Lord, which is something people hardly do anymore. In this fast paced, fast food, disposable society even in Christianity we've fallen for this.
Long-suffering is still a fruit of the Spirit, and it is not just patience, it is patience, endurance, constancy, steadfastness, perseverance, forbearance.
That's the Greek word Makrothymia: long-suffering.

Then there's also the whole concept of tarrying: "tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until you be endued with power from on high"...(Luke 24:49)
Jesus asked His disciples to tarry here and watch while He prayed, and then when He found them asleep, said "What, could you not watch with me one hour?" Then He immediately says, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Matthew 26:41)

Gregoreo: to watch i. e. give strict attention to, be cautious, active: — to take heed lest through remissness and indolence some destructive calamity suddenly overtake one.

So we have the concept of tarrying and watching, and this must be applied to our salvation, at conversion, and then daily. Tarrying in Hebrew also means to be longing, which is certainly desirable that we be longing for the Lord.

I'm not talking about the Pentecostal "tarrying for the Holy Ghost," but rather spending time in fervent prayer and confession, expectation and assurance that we have been accepted in the Saviour.

 

[lismore]

Hello! I think this scripture shows an example of the relationship between salvation and works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are saved by grace, the gift of God, not by works. But the saved heart will seek to do God's will, the good works that God has prepared.

God Bless All

 

[Guojing]

Fire Insurance: aka, Get Out of Hell Free Card. A one time profession will seal you no matter what you do or how you live afterwards. Is it realistic?

Fire Insurance basically is getting saved once, and you can go out and live however you want; you'll still be saved, but you won't be happy and you won't get any rewards.
This theory falls back on Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The LORD showed me that verse 10 has to go with it, and the believeth unto righteousness is a belief of the heart that produces actions or behaviors following.

I suppose those who teach such things as Fire Insurance salvation could also fall back on "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory" (Matthew 12:20 quoting Isaiah 42:3)

I was laying out in an old field today and in front of me there was a bruised reed - actually a stalk of hay bruised in 2 places, bent over twice but still standing. So I was contemplating this "bruised reed" and thinking how it might represent a bruised or weak person. A smoking flax would be a wick that has lost its flame but still smoking and has a red ember still on it. Just a little glow, and about to soon die. It's near dead. But Jesus says He won't quench it; He won't snuff it out. However, I think He would breathe life into it that it flame again and burn brightly.

And then there's no man can pluck them out of my hand, as Jesus said, or ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. (John 10:28, Ephesians 1:13)

Yet there are too many Scriptures, including Jesus own words that would seem to contradict any form of Fire Insurance salvation.

Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven'

Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 7:20-23, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 25:24-30 "Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This appears to show that if you do nothing with the gift of salvation you think you have, and refuse to be a servant of Christ, and utilize the gifts He has for you, you're not saved. This may be the best passage against Fire Insurance claims!)

Luke 13:3 & 5, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
(Note the WERE some of you, and ye are washed and sanctified - which means set apart, separated)

Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:6 -10, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

OK, ultimately God is the judge, and it's His call. But, why would scripture teach so much on repentance, and holiness, and godliness, and sanctification - warning about right living, not of works but by faith, because of the Spirit that dwelleth within us once we are born again.
My belief is if you say a prayer and might even be sincere, but there's no change, and especially if the only reason is to get out of hell and you ask Christ to save you but you don't have any hatred of sin or desire to flee from godless pastimes, then you were not saved. It may have been an intellectual thing, or a worldly sorrow that worketh death, but it wasn't Holy Spirit conviction, repentance granted, grace received, turning with your heart to God.

I'd be very very cautious of any form of Fire Insurance salvation, because I don't think there is such a thing.

Read Paul's epistles to understand that, recognizing that this was extended to us, to make the nation of Israel jealous

Romans 11:11

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do agree with all of this, though I believe there is a time of conversion: when one consciously answers that call to "follow me." As you say, from then on it's a daily thing.
The time of conversion can be at an altar call, but I feel there should be more than just a 60 second prayer; more like crying out when you are convicted of your sin, and tarrying on the Lord, which is something people hardly do anymore. In this fast paced, fast food, disposable society even in Christianity we've fallen for this.
Long-suffering is still a fruit of the Spirit, and it is not just patience, it is patience, endurance, constancy, steadfastness, perseverance, forbearance.
That's the Greek word Makrothymia: long-suffering.

Then there's also the whole concept of tarrying: "tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until you be endued with power from on high"...(Luke 24:49)
Jesus asked His disciples to tarry here and watch while He prayed, and then when He found them asleep, said "What, could you not watch with me one hour?" Then He immediately says, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Matthew 26:41)

Gregoreo: to watch i. e. give strict attention to, be cautious, active: — to take heed lest through remissness and indolence some destructive calamity suddenly overtake one.

So we have the concept of tarrying and watching, and this must be applied to our salvation, at conversion, and then daily. Tarrying in Hebrew also means to be longing, which is certainly desirable that we be longing for the Lord.

I'm not talking about the Pentecostal "tarrying for the Holy Ghost," but rather spending time in fervent prayer and confession, expectation and assurance that we have been accepted in the Saviour.

Initial conversion can happen a lot of ways. It can be dramatic for some people, just look at what happened to St. Paul and his encounter on the road to Damascus.

But we also have the examples of the other Apostles, where their initial conversions were quite different. If we were to ask when were Sts. Peter and Andrew initially converted, would we place it at a distinct dramatic moment; a more mundane moment, or a gradual process? Even after the Lord called them to be leave their fishing careers and become fishers of men, there were certainly dramatic moments--such as the miracle of the great catch of fish at the beginning; but also as they followed and walked with the Lord during His earthly ministry they saw and heard marvelous things. At the same time, it didn't seem to finally dawn on Peter that this Jesus was more than just a great prophet until his profession of faith as recorded in Matthew 16.

Then we have to consider what the experiences were for next generation Christians. For example we have St. Timothy, who was raised as a Christian, though his father was an unbelieving Greek, his mother was a Jewish Christian who raised him in the new Christian faith. Timothy's experience was probably a lot closer to what most Christians in history have experienced--raised by Christian parents (or a Christian parent in some cases).

My initial conversion was gradual, I was raised in a Christian home. I have no memory of a time when I didn't believe. I grew up believing in the Lord. Over the course of my life, from my birth until now, there have been all kinds of moments and events which have greatly affected me. I've had "aha!" moments where aspects of my faith became more clear and crystalized, where reading or hearing Scripture certain things jumped out at me and I feel like I gained a deeper insight and appreciation for matters of faith. I've grown in the faith, but this has been a continual process of conversion over my life.

There was never a moment in my life where I went from non-believer to believer in a dramatic experience. Any dramatic experiences I may have had have always been in the context of an already established faith.

I grew up in a church tradition which did personal conversion experiences, so I did go through an "asking Jesus into my heart" ritual when I was about 3 years old. My grandfather had a stroke and was in the hospital and my parents were unsure if he'd pull through (he did, he lived another 17 years). My parents felt like it was appropriate to tell me about death, and told me that if I asked Jesus into my heart that when I died I would go to heaven. Well, tiny child I was, I didn't really get it obviously, I couldn't grasp really the severity of death--but getting to be around my family forever sounded good, so I repeated the words my parents told me to say a sinner's prayer and asked Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior. Then years later, around eight years old, the question came up in church about "meaning it" when we made a personal decision to follow Jesus. At eight years old I had a real struggle with that idea of meaning it--did I really mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart when I was three years old? So I talked with my dad, and he emphasized the "really meaning it" part and didn't understand why it was causing me so much inner turmoil.

So I asked Jesus into my heart again, just to make sure it "stuck" this time, just in case. My dad asked, "did you mean it this time?" I was honest with him, I told him I didn't know if I meant it or not, because I just couldn't figure out how to know that I "meant it".

As I continued to grow up, entered into adolescence, my doubts never went away, they only got worse. Puberty wasn't just an awkward time in my life, it was also when I experienced my first crisis of faith--because the hormones raging in my body and the feelings I was feeling were at odds with the things I always were taught growing up: be pure, have pure thoughts, don't lust, etc. But here I was, experiencing something that literally everyone goes through, but for me I began to think that if I was "really saved" then I'd be more pure, I'd be more holy--but I wasn't. No matter how much I prayed, no matter how much I tried, the war between my mind, heart, and body raged on. And that didn't go away. As I got more involved in church activities, I went on youth mission trips every summer during my high school career, I went to youth rallies. A group of us from one of the youth groups I went to weekly met every night at the peer in our town to sing and pray for our city. I attended every "See You At the Pole" event. My Christian peers, and the adults, would regularly tell me that I was an "on fire Christian". That was certainly what I wanted, but see I was still struggling to even know if I was saved at all.

Somehow the message that had been given to me, not just from one source, but every Christian source in my life (multiple different churches, pastors, youth pastors, Christian media of various kinds, various adult figures, and teachers at the Christian school I attended for most of my childhood) was that my salvation was basically up to me--to mean it, to ask Jesus into my heart, to make Jesus Lord of my life. A real Christian may struggle with sin, but they aren't overcome by sin--they overcome their sin. But I didn't, I wasn't overcoming anything, every day was a brutal fight, and 9 times out of 10 I failed--and that's being generous with the odds. So all the while everyone I knew was just so proud of me and how spiritual I was, I knew my own dark secret, I knew myself better than they did, I was a sinner, a sinning sinner that sinned over and over and over again; and nothing I did, and no amount of prayer, Bible study, or distracting myself with spiritual matters could make me less of a sinner than I was.

Now, as you might guess, I have a different perspective now than I did as a child. I certainly am a sinner, that much is true, that hasn't changed. I'm still a sinning sinner that sins (God have mercy). But I no longer believe that my salvation is up to me.

I no longer work myself up into a frenzy about whether I "meant it" when I asked Jesus into my heart; because I look back and see how grace was working on me from before I have memories. Because it's not up to me, but rather it's God's grace, which works and gives and strengthens faith--through Word and Sacrament. I believed. I believed because God works faith through His word. And while, because the church tradition I was raised in practiced "believers baptism" I didn't receive Holy Baptism until I was 17, nevertheless I can also look at my baptism and say, "I'm baptized", for there in that washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26) is God's grace, the grace to give me faith, and God's word in and with the water saying I've been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27) buried with Christ, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13). When I go up to the altar, at Christ's Table, and I receive His body and blood, that is grace; there is Christ saying, "This is My body, broken for you" and "This is the cup of the New Covenant in My blood" and "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day" (John 6:54). This is Good News to wretched sinner such as I. Christ saves me, His shed blood, His pierced body, for having suffered once for the sins of the world, taking upon Himself my death, I belong to God. Oh happy exchange, that Christ should take my sin and death and give me His life, full and abundant.

We shouldn't be emphasizing conversion experiences. We should be emphasizing the Gospel--the Gospel converts, God's word is living and active, sharper than a two-edged sword; and His word goes forth and never returns void, but accomplishes what He purposes. He declares a sinner forgiven, that sinner is forgiven; He declares a guilty man pardoned and, indeed, justified--so it is. When the Son of God says to a murderous brigand, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise" it is so, for when Christ speaks, sin groans, death is dead, hell is sundered, and the devils tremble for their time is short.

Our conversion can begin in any number of ways, but it doesn't stop--it keeps going throughout our whole lives. We are being converted until either the day we sigh our last breath, or until Christ the Lord returns in glorious judgment and we rise to meet the King above all kings in the air--for whether we are taken to the Lord's side in the heavens at the hour of our bodily death, or else the End comes and God makes all things new--we shall ever be with the Lord, for that is His good promise to us, "That where I am, you shall be also"--for there is no shortage of rooms in the Father's House.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Initial conversion can happen a lot of ways. It can be dramatic for some people, just look at what happened to St. Paul and his encounter on the road to Damascus.

But we also have the examples of the other Apostles, where their initial conversions were quite different. If we were to ask when were Sts. Peter and Andrew initially converted, would we place it at a distinct dramatic moment; a more mundane moment, or a gradual process? Even after the Lord called them to be leave their fishing careers and become fishers of men, there were certainly dramatic moments--such as the miracle of the great catch of fish at the beginning; but also as they followed and walked with the Lord during His earthly ministry they saw and heard marvelous things. At the same time, it didn't seem to finally dawn on Peter that this Jesus was more than just a great prophet until his profession of faith as recorded in Matthew 16.

Then we have to consider what the experiences were for next generation Christians. For example we have St. Timothy, who was raised as a Christian, though his father was an unbelieving Greek, his mother was a Jewish Christian who raised him in the new Christian faith. Timothy's experience was probably a lot closer to what most Christians in history have experienced--raised by Christian parents (or a Christian parent in some cases).

My initial conversion was gradual, I was raised in a Christian home. I have no memory of a time when I didn't believe. I grew up believing in the Lord. Over the course of my life, from my birth until now, there have been all kinds of moments and events which have greatly affected me. I've had "aha!" moments where aspects of my faith became more clear and crystalized, where reading or hearing Scripture certain things jumped out at me and I feel like I gained a deeper insight and appreciation for matters of faith. I've grown in the faith, but this has been a continual process of conversion over my life.

There was never a moment in my life where I went from non-believer to believer in a dramatic experience. Any dramatic experiences I may have had have always been in the context of an already established faith.

I grew up in a church tradition which did personal conversion experiences, so I did go through an "asking Jesus into my heart" ritual when I was about 3 years old. My grandfather had a stroke and was in the hospital and my parents were unsure if he'd pull through (he did, he lived another 17 years). My parents felt like it was appropriate to tell me about death, and told me that if I asked Jesus into my heart that when I died I would go to heaven. Well, tiny child I was, I didn't really get it obviously, I couldn't grasp really the severity of death--but getting to be around my family forever sounded good, so I repeated the words my parents told me to say a sinner's prayer and asked Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior. Then years later, around eight years old, the question came up in church about "meaning it" when we made a personal decision to follow Jesus. At eight years old I had a real struggle with that idea of meaning it--did I really mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart when I was three years old? So I talked with my dad, and he emphasized the "really meaning it" part and didn't understand why it was causing me so much inner turmoil.

So I asked Jesus into my heart again, just to make sure it "stuck" this time, just in case. My dad asked, "did you mean it this time?" I was honest with him, I told him I didn't know if I meant it or not, because I just couldn't figure out how to know that I "meant it".

As I continued to grow up, entered into adolescence, my doubts never went away, they only got worse. Puberty wasn't just an awkward time in my life, it was also when I experienced my first crisis of faith--because the hormones raging in my body and the feelings I was feeling were at odds with the things I always were taught growing up: be pure, have pure thoughts, don't lust, etc. But here I was, experiencing something that literally everyone goes through, but for me I began to think that if I was "really saved" then I'd be more pure, I'd be more holy--but I wasn't. No matter how much I prayed, no matter how much I tried, the war between my mind, heart, and body raged on. And that didn't go away. As I got more involved in church activities, I went on youth mission trips every summer during my high school career, I went to youth rallies. A group of us from one of the youth groups I went to weekly met every night at the peer in our town to sing and pray for our city. I attended every "See You At the Pole" event. My Christian peers, and the adults, would regularly tell me that I was an "on fire Christian". That was certainly what I wanted, but see I was still struggling to even know if I was saved at all.

Somehow the message that had been given to me, not just from one source, but every Christian source in my life (multiple different churches, pastors, youth pastors, Christian media of various kinds, various adult figures, and teachers at the Christian school I attended for most of my childhood) was that my salvation was basically up to me--to mean it, to ask Jesus into my heart, to make Jesus Lord of my life. A real Christian may struggle with sin, but they aren't overcome by sin--they overcome their sin. But I didn't, I wasn't overcoming anything, every day was a brutal fight, and 9 times out of 10 I failed--and that's being generous with the odds. So all the while everyone I knew was just so proud of me and how spiritual I was, I knew my own dark secret, I knew myself better than they did, I was a sinner, a sinning sinner that sinned over and over and over again; and nothing I did, and no amount of prayer, Bible study, or distracting myself with spiritual matters could make me less of a sinner than I was.

Now, as you might guess, I have a different perspective now than I did as a child. I certainly am a sinner, that much is true, that hasn't changed. I'm still a sinning sinner that sins (God have mercy). But I no longer believe that my salvation is up to me.

I no longer work myself up into a frenzy about whether I "meant it" when I asked Jesus into my heart; because I look back and see how grace was working on me from before I have memories. Because it's not up to me, but rather it's God's grace, which works and gives and strengthens faith--through Word and Sacrament. I believed. I believed because God works faith through His word. And while, because the church tradition I was raised in practiced "believers baptism" I didn't receive Holy Baptism until I was 17, nevertheless I can also look at my baptism and say, "I'm baptized", for there in that washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26) is God's grace, the grace to give me faith, and God's word in and with the water saying I've been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27) buried with Christ, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13). When I go up to the altar, at Christ's Table, and I receive His body and blood, that is grace; there is Christ saying, "This is My body, broken for you" and "This is the cup of the New Covenant in My blood" and "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day" (John 6:54). This is Good News to wretched sinner such as I. Christ saves me, His shed blood, His pierced body, for having suffered once for the sins of the world, taking upon Himself my death, I belong to God. Oh happy exchange, that Christ should take my sin and death and give me His life, full and abundant.

We shouldn't be emphasizing conversion experiences. We should be emphasizing the Gospel--the Gospel converts, God's word is living and active, sharper than a two-edged sword; and His word goes forth and never returns void, but accomplishes what He purposes. He declares a sinner forgiven, that sinner is forgiven; He declares a guilty man pardoned and, indeed, justified--so it is. When the Son of God says to a murderous brigand, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise" it is so, for when Christ speaks, sin groans, death is dead, hell is sundered, and the devils tremble for their time is short.

Our conversion can begin in any number of ways, but it doesn't stop--it keeps going throughout our whole lives. We are being converted until either the day we sigh our last breath, or until Christ the Lord returns in glorious judgment and we rise to meet the King above all kings in the air--for whether we are taken to the Lord's side in the heavens at the hour of our bodily death, or else the End comes and God makes all things new--we shall ever be with the Lord, for that is His good promise to us, "That where I am, you shall be also"--for there is no shortage of rooms in the Father's House.

-CryptoLutheran

Interesting about Peter.
Luke 22:31-34,
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

That word ekestrephos meaning turned, or turned again, is used 5 times in the Bible as "converted". Every other time it is used to mean a salvation conversion. But it is also used as "turn" several times, and in many cases there to turn to God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Fire Insurance: aka, Get Out of Hell Free Card. A one time profession will seal you no matter what you do or how you live afterwards. Is it realistic?

Fire Insurance basically is getting saved once, and you can go out and live however you want; you'll still be saved, but you won't be happy and you won't get any rewards.
This theory falls back on Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The LORD showed me that verse 10 has to go with it, and the believeth unto righteousness is a belief of the heart that produces actions or behaviors following.

I suppose those who teach such things as Fire Insurance salvation could also fall back on "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory" (Matthew 12:20 quoting Isaiah 42:3)

I was laying out in an old field today and in front of me there was a bruised reed - actually a stalk of hay bruised in 2 places, bent over twice but still standing. So I was contemplating this "bruised reed" and thinking how it might represent a bruised or weak person. A smoking flax would be a wick that has lost its flame but still smoking and has a red ember still on it. Just a little glow, and about to soon die. It's near dead. But Jesus says He won't quench it; He won't snuff it out. However, I think He would breathe life into it that it flame again and burn brightly.

And then there's no man can pluck them out of my hand, as Jesus said, or ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. (John 10:28, Ephesians 1:13)

Yet there are too many Scriptures, including Jesus own words that would seem to contradict any form of Fire Insurance salvation.

Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven'

Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 7:20-23, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 25:24-30 "Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This appears to show that if you do nothing with the gift of salvation you think you have, and refuse to be a servant of Christ, and utilize the gifts He has for you, you're not saved. This may be the best passage against Fire Insurance claims!)

Luke 13:3 & 5, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
(Note the WERE some of you, and ye are washed and sanctified - which means set apart, separated)

Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:6 -10, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

OK, ultimately God is the judge, and it's His call. But, why would scripture teach so much on repentance, and holiness, and godliness, and sanctification - warning about right living, not of works but by faith, because of the Spirit that dwelleth within us once we are born again.
My belief is if you say a prayer and might even be sincere, but there's no change, and especially if the only reason is to get out of hell and you ask Christ to save you but you don't have any hatred of sin or desire to flee from godless pastimes, then you were not saved. It may have been an intellectual thing, or a worldly sorrow that worketh death, but it wasn't Holy Spirit conviction, repentance granted, grace received, turning with your heart to God.

I'd be very very cautious of any form of Fire Insurance salvation, because I don't think there is such a thing.

Good post, but want to point out, the fire insurance is being able to stand in God's presence - being fireproof. God is a consuming fire Hebrews 12:29. Shadrack michadrack & bendigo were fireproof. Fireproof means we have been made righteous and holy by faith through Jesus and can stand in His presence at His Second Coming. The lost at His Second Coming will not be fireproof, His Glory will consume those which is what "hell" is, it means the grave.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Interesting about Peter.
Luke 22:31-34,
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

That word ekestrephos meaning turned, or turned again, is used 5 times in the Bible as "converted". Every other time it is used to mean a salvation conversion. But it is also used as "turn" several times, and in many cases there to turn to God.

Further interesting is that ἐπιστρέφω is in the aroist active, meaning that duration is unqualified and the subject is the agent of the verb. Thus Peter's conversion here probably refers to once he gets past those major character flaws we see Peter have in the Gospels, he can be a strong leader. We see this happen and happening in the Acts of the Apostles, the Peter of Acts 2 is able to speak on behalf of the Faithful in a way where his rather strong personality (which got him to put his feet in his mouth frequently) is absent--though of course Peter was also speaking by the power of the Spirit here. Yet Peter remains a strong leader in the nascent Church, but he's always growing. When the Lord gave him a dream about how the Gospel was to go to the Gentiles, Peter was initially hesitant, but nevertheless said "yes Lord" went to Cornelius' house, and had no qualms about giving them Baptism. Which he defended eloquently back in Jerusalem. Outside of the Acts we can witness Peter's continued growth, in Galatians Paul tells us that Peter, at the time his co-pastor in Antioch, went full coward again when some representatives from the mother church in Jerusalem came, and Peter refused to eat with, associate with, the Greek Christians out of fear of what the Jerusalem brothers might think--and Paul rightly rebukes his fellow Apostle.

The point is that Peter's conversion referenced in Luke 22:32 isn't that Peter would have a conversion experience and then be a source of strength for his brothers; but rather it is an invitation for Peter to grow, to be converted, in order that he might serve his brother-apostles--something we witness in the on-going story of Peter in the rest of the New Testament, where it was never a once-and-done thing, but ongoing.

We all need conversion, we all need to be orientated Christ-ward, not just the one time when we may have first initially believed or grew into faith; but something that keeps going throughout our whole lives.

-CryptoLutheran