Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

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At any rate, the arguments of some notwithstanding, the eschatology of Left Behind is not only unbiblical, but a recent innovation: it is essentially a variant of the pre-Millenial Dispensationalism first taught by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century. Additionally, as I pointed out earlier, the characterization of the anti-Christ as a Romanian (with a non-Romanian name, Nicolae Carpathia, which also manages to include another largely Orthodox ethnic group, the Carpatho-Rusyns also known as Ruthenians), is extremely offensive, to the memory of the fourth century bishop St. Nicholas of Myra, and to the tens of thousands of Romanian and Carpatho-Rusyn New Martyrs and Confessors killed for their Christianity by Communist regimes in the 20th century.
 
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I am quoting God in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

God says “wars” are used as God’s wrath (“dreadful punishments”).

The 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

God’s wrath starts in the Trib in the 2nd seal.

The prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem clearly refer to what happened to it in the aftermath of the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD, wherein the Romans left the city largely in ruins, and devoid of its Jewish population, with the Jews having to flee Judaea itself. They would not return until the city was rebuilt by St. Helena, the Christian mother of the first Christian Emperor of Rome, St. Constantine, who conducted what amounted to an archaeological expedition to the Hagiopolis in the 420s, to find and locate the holy sites such as the Holy Sepulchre, which have become places of pilgrimage for Christians to this day, and important relics such as the True Cross.

The early church rejected Chiliasm at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 481; while some second century Fathers believed in it, by the fourth century it was realized that this, like Quartodecimianism, was a mistake that occurred in the confusion engendered by the severe persecution of the Church in the second and third centuries, and was no longer tenable, particularly after the Apollinarian sect (a hereical offhsoot of Christianity founded by a man named Apollinarius, who taught that Jesus Christ, rather than being fully God and fully man, was a man with the mind of God, which is obviously a heretical position) made Chiliasm a central aspect of their doctrine.
 
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WilliamLhk

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I am quoting God in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

God says “wars” are used as God’s wrath (“dreadful punishments”).

The 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

God’s wrath starts in the Trib in the 2nd seal.
According to you. But nowhere does the Book of Revelation, when describing the first 5 Seals, say ANYTHING about them being due to the wrath of God. However, Revelation does say this:

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. ... 12“Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Satan will be the true origin of the evils against the Church and the world during the time of the first five Seals. Satan, not God, will be the cause of the evils of the Great Tribulation, and in particular of the martyrdom of the saints foretold in the 5th Seal. Those five seals being the same trib events prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:5-12: 1) false christs and prophets, 2) war, 3) famine and food scarcity, 4) plague and chaos, 5) persecution and martyrdom of the saints.
 
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Dan Perez

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The "left behind" narrative appears to conflict with scripture. It places the "rapture" before the antichrist is revealed, but 2 Thes. 2:3 clearly places the "rapture" (1st resurrection) AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

This issue came up when I read a statement by (the very respected and knowledgeable) David Jeremiah: "No, the Bible does not tell us who the Antichrist will be. In fact, Paul tells us in the second chapter of [2] Thessalonians that this coming world ruler will not be revealed until after the Rapture of the church. 'So if you ever reach the point where you think you know who he is, that must mean you have been left behind.'" (quoting Tim LaHaye, and agreeing). Quoted from "The Book of Signs," p. 248.

But that scripture clearly states the opposite (2 Thes. 2:3) "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
"That day" is referring to v. 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him" (i.e., the "rapture", or the 1 Cor. 15 resurrection.
"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

Before vs. after - can anyone explain this conflict?

I'm a skeptic when it comes to constructed chronologies of eshcatology. I would like to believe in the Pre-trib idea, but I'm having a rough time with it. I haven't found anything anywhere that adequately explains this conflict. All I've seen so far is assertions and opinions. Can anyone help?
And I am PRE- TRIB and here is how I see it !!

I 2 Thess 2:1 we see the word COMING // PAROUSIA , the Lord Jesus Christ , even are gathering together unto Him .

And i verse 2 , the believers were DISTURBED out of mind , WHY , nor to be frightened , neither by spirit , nor by LETTER , and it seem some one spreads FASLE LETTER BY Paul as by us , as that the DAY of the Lord is close at hand .

No one should thoroughly deceive uoy in not one way because EXCEPT the ( departure should come first ) in called APOSTASIA and we know from 2 Tim 4:16 that all had forsaken Paul .

So the Greek word APOSTASIA , i believe is DEPARTURE of the BODY OF CHRIST and also used in Acts 21:21 .

By the way there is NO GREEK for Rapture ..

In 1 Thess 4 :17 it is called CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

In Gal 1;3 it is called RESCUE // EXAIREO


dan p
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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According to you. But nowhere does the Book of Revelation, when describing the first 5 Seals, say ANYTHING about them being due to the wrath of God. However, Revelation does say this:

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. ... 12“Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Satan will be the true origin of the evils against the Church and the world during the time of the first five Seals. Satan, not God, will be the cause of the evils of the Great Tribulation, and in particular of the martyrdom of the saints foretold in the 5th Seal. Those five seals being the same trib events prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:5-12: 1) false christs and prophets, 2) war, 3) famine and food scarcity, 4) plague and chaos, 5) persecution and martyrdom of the saints.
Wars in the Trib are one form of God’s wrath. Many people talk about God’s wrath, but hardly anyone can accurately define wrath. You see? I found four definitions of God’s wrath in Ezekiel 14:21. It’s not according to me; it’s stated by God that wars are a form of His wrath.

You pre-Trib antagonists never accept the truth in Bible verses that prove the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 1:10 says God will “deliver us” from the “wrath to come.” Well, it clearly comes in the 2nd seal. What’s your problem with the truth about that?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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And I am PRE- TRIB and here is how I see it !!

I 2 Thess 2:1 we see the word COMING // PAROUSIA , the Lord Jesus Christ , even are gathering together unto Him .

And i verse 2 , the believers were DISTURBED out of mind , WHY , nor to be frightened , neither by spirit , nor by LETTER , and it seem some one spreads FASLE LETTER BY Paul as by us , as that the DAY of the Lord is close at hand .

No one should thoroughly deceive uoy in not one way because EXCEPT the ( departure should come first ) in called APOSTASIA and we know from 2 Tim 4:16 that all had forsaken Paul .

So the Greek word APOSTASIA , i believe is DEPARTURE of the BODY OF CHRIST and also used in Acts 21:21 .

By the way there is NO GREEK for Rapture ..

In 1 Thess 4 :17 it is called CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

In Gal 1;3 it is called RESCUE // EXAIREO


dan p
There is not a single instance in the New Testament or any other early Christian literature in which the word ἀποστασία express the concept “departure.” The only meanings found in the New Testament and other early Christian literature are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG Greek-English Lexicon, p. 120).

There are, however, instances in early classical literature, a very different dialect of Greek, in which the word ἀποστασία express the concept “departure” as in “defection” or “revolt.” Furthermore, this usage in classical Greek is always used in the active sense rather than the passive sense—that is, it expresses something that someone does, NOT what is done to someone. The rapture is not something that Christians do, it is something that God does to Christians. Therefore, the word ἀποστασία cannot possibly express the concept of the rapture.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
4. who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (RSV)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Wars in the Trib are one form of God’s wrath. Many people talk about God’s wrath, but hardly anyone can accurately define wrath. You see? I found four definitions of God’s wrath in Ezekiel 14:21. It’s not according to me; it’s stated by God that wars are a form of His wrath.

You pre-Trib antagonists never accept the truth in Bible verses that prove the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 1:10 says God will “deliver us” from the “wrath to come.” Well, it clearly comes in the 2nd seal. What’s your problem with the truth about that?

So what you're saying is is that you don't know what God's wrath is.

Romans 1:18.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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There is not a single instance in the New Testament or any other early Christian literature in which the word ἀποστασία express the concept “departure.” The only meanings found in the New Testament and other early Christian literature are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG Greek-English Lexicon, p. 120).

There are, however, instances in early classical literature, a very different dialect of Greek, in which the word ἀποστασία express the concept “departure” as in “defection” or “revolt.” Furthermore, this usage in classical Greek is always used in the active sense rather than the passive sense—that is, it expresses something that someone does, NOT what is done to someone. The rapture is not something that Christians do, it is something that God does to Christians. Therefore, the word ἀποστασία cannot possibly express the concept of the rapture.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
4. who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (RSV)
You’re stressing irrelevant facts.

Apostasia has five definitions, including “divorce.” It has a connotation of meaning “departure” and “disappearance, as noted the Liddel & Scott Greek- English Lexicon’s second definition for “apostasia.”

If apostasia appeared only five times in the Bible, applying each of its five definitions only once, then your implied “rules” would only lead to complete confusion.

On the other hand, even with its five definitions, let’s pretend apostasia only appeared once in the Bible. What then do we do? We go by the all-important context to determine which of its five definitions best fits the context.

First, do you know that “falling away” never appeared in 2 Th 2:3 until the first KJV, in 1611? Do you also know that KJV has never been willing to say why they made that sea change in 2 Th 2:3? It’s all very suspicious, and it’s all provably a whopper of an error. That all relates to the context, as well, as you will see.

Paul had never written about a falling away. Where it appears first in his works is in Acts, long after he wrote 2 Th 2. Paul had written before about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Th 5:1-3 (adding to 1 Th 1:10).

Here’s 2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

That aligns with 1 Th 4:17’s words “to meet the Lord in the air, …” —— Therefire, Paul was referencing the rapture. That makes “the rapture” as the context.

Verse 1 can’t be about the 2A (2nd Advent) for two reasons: (1): there’s no “gathering unto Him” in Matt 24:31. That verse does not say where the gathered go. There are only two options: (A) As part of the armies in Rev 19:14 or (B) As part of those in Matt 25:34-40.

The next two verses will prove there was
a deception carried out against Paul’s Thessalonian flock. As noted in verse 2, his flock was deceived by a fraudulent letter, made to appear to be from Paul, in that they had missed the rapture and were now in the Trib (Day of the Lord). In verse 3, Paul corrects his flock by saying “that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, …” Paul was correcting his flock about the timing of the rapture: it will occur before the Trib (Day of the Lord).

Here’s 2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

“That day” in verse 3 is the “day of the Lord” in verse 2. Paul therefore meant the Trib hasn’t started because the rapture comes first.

KJV not only got it wrong, but as wrong as it could be. The “falling away” occurs years later, in the Trib, per Matt 24:10.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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So what you're saying is is that you don't know what God's wrath is.

Romans 1:18.

-CryptoLutheran
God's wrath, in part, is revealed in Ezekiel 14:21. Romans 1:18-19 (ESV): The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

God has been revealing His wrath for centuries.
 
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ViaCrucis

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God's wrath, in part, is revealed in Ezekiel 14:21. Romans 1:18-19 (ESV): The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

God has been revealing His wrath for centuries.

What does Jesus say in John 3:18-19?
What does Paul say in Romans 3:9-20?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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What does Jesus say in John 3:18-19?
What does Paul say in Romans 3:9-20?

-CryptoLutheran
Let's cut to the chase:

Rev 3:10 is about our being raptured pre-Trib and those left behind will be subjected to "the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." There are two groups in that verse distinguished by "you" and "those." We are "you" and "those" are the ones left behind, known as "those who dwell on the earth."

Rev 6:10 proves only unbelievers are on Earth (along with the 144k in Rev 7). The 2W arrive on the scene later in Rev 11:3. Rev 6:10 is about the 5th seal, proving believers never enter the Trib.

Rev 9:4 also proves only unbelievers are on Earth (along with the 144k in Rev 7). The 2W arrive on the scene later in Rev 11:3. You see? Those two verses are PROOF that only unbelievers enter the Trib. You can't show me one verse where believers enter the Trib. There are conversions in the Trib, but those folks will enter the Trib as unbelievers. Those converted in the Trib are the GM (great multitude in Rev 7: 9-17), representing the greatest revival in the Trib.
 
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tdidymas

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And I am PRE- TRIB and here is how I see it !!

I 2 Thess 2:1 we see the word COMING // PAROUSIA , the Lord Jesus Christ , even are gathering together unto Him .

And i verse 2 , the believers were DISTURBED out of mind , WHY , nor to be frightened , neither by spirit , nor by LETTER , and it seem some one spreads FASLE LETTER BY Paul as by us , as that the DAY of the Lord is close at hand .

No one should thoroughly deceive uoy in not one way because EXCEPT the ( departure should come first ) in called APOSTASIA and we know from 2 Tim 4:16 that all had forsaken Paul .

So the Greek word APOSTASIA , i believe is DEPARTURE of the BODY OF CHRIST and also used in Acts 21:21 .

By the way there is NO GREEK for Rapture ..

In 1 Thess 4 :17 it is called CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

In Gal 1;3 it is called RESCUE // EXAIREO


dan p
How does this address my objection?
 
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WilliamLhk

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You pre-Trib antagonists never accept the truth in Bible verses that prove the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 1:10 says God will “deliver us” from the “wrath to come.” Well, it clearly comes in the 2nd seal. What’s your problem with the truth about that?
My problem with it is that God's wrath is nowhere said to come in the 2nd Seal. It is not announced as having come until the 6th Seal.
There have always been wars, not all of which can be blamed on God.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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My problem with it is that God's wrath is nowhere said to come in the 2nd Seal. It is not announced as having come until the 6th Seal.
There have always been wars, not all of which can be blamed on God.
The wars in the 2nd seal are like no others in history. There will be simultaneous wars, all over the world at the same time, of an extremely vicious nature. That has never happened before.

The word “war” or “sword” is used, about what is described above, in the 2nd seal. It is therefore God’s wrath, as is verified by Ezekiel 14:21.

1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. In many versions of that verse, “delivers us” is used. That has a meaning of “snatch up.” That is exactly what happens in the rapture.

Paul wrote much about the rapture. 1 Th 1:10 is his first verse on it. He also wrote 1 Th 4:16-17 (definitely rapture verses) and much of 1 Th 5, especially verses 1-3, richly supports his passionate writings about the rapture.

You can’t find all dead in Christ and all living believers raptured together, in the Trib or in the 2A. It only occurs pre-Trib.

Do you need anymore proof? I’ll be happy to present it.

God bless!
 
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WilliamLhk

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The wars in the 2nd seal are like no others in history. There will be simultaneous wars, all over the world at the same time, of an extremely vicious nature. That has never happened before.
I sure don't see that said anywhere in Rev. 6:3-4. Only in your imagination. The machaira "sword" is a short sword or dagger, symbolic of internecine not international conflict. Whereas Jesus uses a romphaia/battle sword in Rev. 19 during that war with nations.
You can’t find all dead in Christ and all living believers raptured together, in the Trib or in the 2A. It only occurs pre-Trib.

Do you need anymore proof? I’ll be happy to present it.
All of your so-called proofs rely on generous additions of presumptions added to the Word, as the ones above. So don't bother.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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I sure don't see that said anywhere in Rev. 6:3-4. Only in your imagination. The machaira "sword" is a short sword or dagger, symbolic of internecine not international conflict. Whereas Jesus uses a romphaia/battle sword in Rev. 19 during that war with nations.

All of your so-called proofs rely on generous additions of presumptions added to the Word, as the ones above. So don't bother.
It depends on the Bible version. Some are definitely a lot better than others. The NLT (New Living Translation) version is super-excellent at getting translations correct.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.
 
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If someone were to make a realistic film about the Great Tribulation, then:
1. It would be rated R
2. It would be classified as sci-fi, though none of it is fiction
3. The storyline would resemble a WW2 film, except the Furher would be replaced by a demonically-controlled AI
4. Chariots of fire rather than neatly folded clothes left behind. And we go up when the bombs come down...
5. The devil and his minions show up in a spaceship.
6. Get rid of the pointless cosmic boomerang of the resurrected. Completely unbiblical...

If the Left Behind movies had these 6 things changed, then it would be much better. But if done on a low budget, I'm afraid it would still be a joke...
 
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